"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

And sorry to hear about your bad experiences jess. Pretending all is fine is just as invalidating as any other abusive behaviour. I hope the therapy is helping.

Guilt is a huge issue for me really as I never learned to deal with screwing up in a healthy way - like lacking a moral equivalent of self-soothing. If I messed up it was either completely ignored or met with a complete overreaction.

Misty her reaction was appallingly selfish and I'm sorry. Some people really do believe their own bullshit because it helps them cope and well tough luck on everyone else.

I once stumbled on a diary or letter of my mum's (genuinely by accident) that said my dad said we made him suicidal. Have never told anyone this apart from DH and anon people on the Internet but my reaction was and is not to feel bad or shitty but to wonder whether he ever stopped to think how he made US feel because it was always about him.

Thanks Misty - the whole pretending it's fine thing is absent from most books or checklists.

I often think I am just overreacting. There was sometimes physical stuff but I honestly don't think that's what really messed me up.

All part of the manipulation thundernlightening. When my parents thought they could still control me in early September they sent me 2 bunches of flowers for my birthday (they usually "forget" or just send a card with a tenner in it). This Christmas after which is has become clear I'm not backing down they haven't sent presents for ANY of their 4 grandchildren.

Hello everyone, I was wondering if this thread would be ok for me to join/ visit?
I scored highly, 90 % , profoundly affected, on the assessment quiz for the effects of having grown up with an alcoholic parent.
I used to think it hadn't affected me,since I am well educated and well balanced with friends etc but as I am getting older several bereavements and difficult life events have happened to me and I struggle with them more than I would like.
I am thinking of going into some specialised therapy to improve my confidence and happiness and to come to terms with the effects of my childhood.
I haven't suffered actual abuse but did suffer with emotional unavailability from my mother as she was a serious alcoholic, and I had to be the parent in our relationship.
The other things I struggle with are finding it hard to enjoy myself , being super responsible towards others, still being angry that I didn't fix her and having a void from a certain age where I "lost" her from about 10 or 11 as she was never really the same after that... Its as if I passed that age that she was then and no longer know what example to follow. Also some trauma from the events when she became really confused and unkempt with strange behaviour.
I have read the effects are similar to those who grew up in dysfunctional families and thought I may be able to get some pointers here wrt therapy or personal growth. If not, thats OK I could maybe start a specific thread for children of alcoholics.
One thing I have is a feeling of emptiness and fear, and of not always being entirely sure who I am supposed to be.

Hello and welcome hog. Yes, alcoholism in the family is one of the many forms of family dysfunction that affects children in similar ways growing up in those families.

No child should have to parent their own mother. That was an unfair responsibility to place on your shoulders.

Specialised therapy sounds like a wonderful idea. I found that therapy helped me really understand the origins of those feelings of emptiness and fear, of not knowing who I'm supposed to be, and then a lot of personal work has helped me fill that emptiness, replace that fear, and gain a better understanding of who I am (and my right to be that person).

Thankyou.
I think the penny has dropped that it has really affected me, damaged my social confidence and sense of self. The unfixable and secret nature of the problem we had as a family seems so obvious now. This huge problem was there and I was the only one who tried to address it. So many times but with no success... then the worst possible outcome.

I feel more at peace now, it makes sense

Oh midwife how sad.

Jessjess my parents were not religious, but my grandmother, who I think saved my sister and I, she was. By being religious I got to get away from the house most weekends. It also kind of helped me cope with the trauma - this too shall pass. I'm not religious any more, though.

Hogmanure - my cousin is the child if an emotionally distant alcoholic - she found al anon family groups extremely helpful to her. They have support groups & a helpful website.

Jess I'm not religious now but funnily enough when I was growing up with an atheist father I became an extremely religious child. From the age of 7 or 8 I used to go to church alone as a child. I tried them all! CofE, Pentecostal, Catholic, Methodist, even Plymouth Bretheren! (Not to be recommended!!)
I can now see I was just lonely. Most of my childhood memories of fun things were outings with Sunday school.

Jess - I was raised a catholic and was sent to a very strict catholic school where i was badly bullied.
I am now c of e and I go to church.
It's the only place I feel accepted for who I am.
There are people there I could talk to and am considering it.
I am glad you have some fun memories of your childhood x

I go to church. I was brought up going to a traditional c of e, I've opted for a far more relaxed and welcoming church as an adult though.

My mum has pulled the Christian card on me and says I must say sorry and fix things with Dad. But after his awful abuse and threats, I feel that life is easier not seeing him, I also struggle as I didn't deserve to be treated like that in the first place and I didn't retaliate at any point either. The whole attack on me was unprovoked. I just do not feel it's my place to apologise. And that with unreasonable people it's far better to avoid them, than to be a doormat. Iyswim? As he would do it again. I've always 'fixed' things in the past.

Life was so stressful when I had to see him; treading on egg shells, everyone reacting to his every whim to keep the peace. I do not want to pander to him or enable his behaviour anymore. This Christmas was the best yet, without seeing him or my family. The whole set up is dysfunctional. I'm glad I'm out of it.

Yes to fixing things! Even when it wasn't my fault (it must have been sometimes I am not perfect!) I always played peace maker.
Always.
Even after my siblings verbally and physically abused me, stole from me and made my life hell.
Do read toxic parents by Susan forward...has a great part in about forgiveness and how it's ok nit to forgive as to forgive implies that it didn't matter/wasn't important and that as ling as you don't want or expect revenge that its ok not to forgive, but to get on with your life (which is obv not what the church teaches!)

Yes the stuff in Toxic Parents about forgiveness is v good.

Have withdrawn my last two posts. Worried (probably irrationally) about identifying myself so asked MNHQ to take them down.

Just feel so sad today :(
Had a long talk with dh last night - til after midnight - and I apologised yet again for my reactions on Xmas day.
I tried to explain how upset I was and told him that I am either going NC or very limited contact.
Fact is not seeing my sister or brother will be no loss :(
Upset about my niece and nephews, but as my dh said, one day they will be older and can initiate contact with me of their own accord.
Dads hospital appt today. Hoping its not bad news.
I can't be there for them if it is.
I just can't.

Fixing things means accepting the problem is yours, you are right not to take full responsibility for that. My FIL is a big one for asking us to fix things, I did point out that he has never been able to make his wife a happy person with no anger, how did he expect anyone else to succeed!? He genuinely seems to think it's in our gift to make her into this happy, loving version of herself.

Badvoc, you're going through the hardest part at the moment. Glad to hear your DH is supportive - what he is saying is right. You don't have to do anything you aren't ready to.

Forgetmenots...the day after I sent the email I had the best nights sleep I have had in weeks...co incidence?
My dc will still see my nephews at school. It was always been down to me to initiate contact anyway...never from my sister or brother so if I stop doing it, it just won't happen. No big showdown needed there. I will send cards and vouchers/chq for b days etc.

Happy loving version of themselves. It doesn't exist anyway, does it?

There are photos on fb of the big family get together today, all I feel is relief that I didn't go. No one looks happy.

badvoc of course no coincidence, set a filter on your email box to redirect any reply to the bin - easily done in gmail. Well done to you, you have taken a huge step.

dontstep it certainly doesn't, but I think FIL has to believe it does, because the truth - that he married and had children with someone incapable of joy and with serious anger issues - is too difficult for him to confront. Better that he made wonderful choices, that his wife is a lovely person ground down by years of ungrateful children and hard work, and that we are denying everyone this lovely person by not doing everything she asks.

Also dontstep the fb photos are a good reminder of your choices and reasons, glad you've made the right decision.

Oh my gosh it has been just one of those days again, dh has been withdrawn, moody, unattentive and damn right unsociable since seeing ils tomorrow as well as being 'ill'

So all day ive slaved away doing housework and taking kids out mainly to get away from him.

Wtf did they do to him yesterday??
The aunt was supposed to be turning up to see dc & drop off mils gifts-dh has told the he is ill......many hours later he had been bombarded with missed calls from mil & sil and texts asking "what has aunt done wrong?" to which he texted back "nothing but im ill, will make it another day"-To which he got back from mil, "cant aunt pick dc up and bring them round ours"- well i snatched the phone up and told her there is no way my dc will be going round her house and that aunt was welcome another day.
Anyway texts continued along the lines of "what have i done" as per usual. I despair i really do!

Dh was supposed to be coming out with me tomorrow to see my df and all i'm getting is "see how i feel tomorrow", knowing full well this visit is important to me and was sheduled a while back, yet he can go to his toxic parents who treat everyone like shit.

All he has done all day is grunt & lie on the sofa because he has a sore throat-i'm suspecting that the behaviour coincedes with the fact he saw them yesterday, when my mum came round she whispered to me he needs to get a grip...

So fed up how he puts up and shuts up when it comes to his toxic rancid abusive family but cannot do anything for me. I'm starting to lose my cool as i cannot keep up with being miss nice guy much longer as it isn't getting me anywhere

I'm just a doormat for him to wipe his feet on whenever they upset him, but he isn't willing to talk or do anything about it except from blame me or say he loves them bla bla bla they are my parents bla bla

Yesterday not tomorrow

Ive been like yr dh since Boxing day tho am still cooking, washing etc. hard to pull out of it feel v hopeless and lacking in foundations no idea what to think any more and feel v alone letting dc down again yho