"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

I'm so sorry to see that so many of you are going through this. I don't know whats worse, knowing that you're going through it or that you are not alone.

I've been bought up in 3 countries, countless houses (into the 20's), 6 primary schools - all for "my own good" and "aren't you lucky". (still not sure why now)

I'm just going to do a quick check list if you don't mind so I can keep track of various examples already mentioned and so i can keep track of what I'm trying to work out.

"you'll understand when you have kids"
"you're too young to understand anything"
Namecalling
never feeling good enough
feeling as though you've failed in everything
different rules for different siblings
encouragement with something they want me to do/think is right but the complete opposite if it's something they dont approve of
it's all my fault
accused of stealing when they've lost it - then told I'm being sensitive for no reason
feelings belittled/ignored
bullied thoughout school(s)
Golden child sibling
physical abuse when older
kicked out when fought back
feeling of dread when visit/call
feeling of guilt for not doing enough/supporting them
Doing something for them but then slagged off anyway
financially draining
Emotionally draining
just DRAINING
left at home with sibling while they went on holiday
undermining you with your own children
buying crap she cant afford then expect me to be grateful and send her a gift - then ask me for money as she cant pay the gas bill, buy's fags with it instead
Expects help at a drop of a hat
Says she is scared the kids wont remember her as "she's their grandma" (in name only)
I'm expected to support her, my brother (as it's not his fault all of his bosses have been pricks - really? all of them?) myself, a mortgage, and two kids.
She didn't claim carers for my dad as she was too proud and she was "better than that." - guess who's being made to pay the debt.
Every call starts with "have you got fat yet, they're all fat up there aren't they?, I dont want you ending up like them",( Hello mum, nice to hear from you too.)
It's my fault she hit the bottle as I was a difficult child and never did what was expected of me, and that she tried so hard to keep everything "calma" and normal for us growing up. - bollocks and stop talking in spanish when you're drunk. I hate that language now because of my association with it and your drinking.
Being told I look like a slut, during a dancing competition when I was 8. I haven't danced since and still cant bring myself to do it. I loved it too.
Being made to perform in front of family anything piano pieces I've learnt - again when she's drunk/been drinking...something else I can't bring myself to do because of false "encouragement" (ie, ooh, look how well she's been doing, it's all down to me pushing her you know, she wouldnt bother otherwise)..no, it was my way of escaping from the bullies at school and from your drinking - I cant hear the arguments with the headphones on.
and finally but by no means least, being spoken to like a child. eg "Stop being stubborn", "grow up", "you silly girl" - after I've called to say there's a food shop being delivered), if I'm really lucky, I'll get all 3 in one sentance! Whoopdefuckingdee.

Does anyone else get the "I told you so", "See? Your mum's always right, you should listen to me more", "what sis you do wrong now" speech when something goes wrong/relationship breaks down?

I no longer tell my mother anything as it will be used against me eventually or she will have some way of trumping it without actually listening to me. Exams, grades, health scares, achievements - nothing. She knows nothing.

Fuck it, I'm done with it all. We have very little contact now and she only calls when she want's something - which I do out of FOG more than anything. I've no feelings towards her, well yes, I do, resentment if I'm honest.

Sorry for the mammouth post, It didn't start out that way honest, it just kind of grew as things popped into my head.

Thank you for this thread, I can't thank you enough.

Ooooh, one more thing - refusal to use my last name on parcels/letters despite that being the name on my birth certificate. I grew up with a different name, my dads name, only he wasnt my dad, and he didnt adopt me. I was raised with a false surname for 15 years. I was 15 when she threw it in my face that I wasn't his. Although it hurt, a few puzzle pieces fell into place that day. At 18 I had to use the name on my birth certificate - I was called a traitor. Jokingly of course [hmmm]

Again, sorry for the massive post.

(Does anyone else find themselves apologising all the time?)

Badvoc, that's horrible.

I don't know what to say. Your DD's birthday may well be ignored by them but it does sound as though she's better off with them not really knowing her. Less damage can be done that way I guess. Not just for your DD but all of you, you included.

Dh is home, not in the greatest of moods but better than normal.
Apparently they sent him to bed because he looked tired, probably a snipe at me i imagine. Fgs he bloody slept all night....

He has came home with a few cheapo gifts from them to him.
Dc have been given zilch, this is from a mil who apparently missed her gcs so much she crys all the time bla bla-yeh right what gm doesn't send her gc christmas presents, toxic one at that

And misses her son so much, she sends him to bed the only time she's seen him in 2 months

They sent your DH to bed?

pumpkin - shocking, infantilising behaviour. Ask him if he was tired, and if not why did he go to bed, wouldn't he have had more fun seeing everyone?

I got the line "you will understand when you have kids"
Yeah?
Well, i am a mother of 2 and i dont fucking get it

Oh Badvoc it's awful the way bad parents move the goalposts so they never have to acknowledge their own failings.

Welcome to the new folk.

Molepom re: "Does anyone else find themselves apologising all the time" - yes, all the time.

I dropped ash on my friend's carpet the other week (I don't smoke in my house but they do). They (friend and her DH) seemed shocked and bemused when I apologised repeatedly, while almost in tears, even after the husband spilled a drink over the same patch of floor and made a bigger mess.

I apologise a lot.

As a child I was often told: "You will apologise," usually without understanding why.

My poor DH has to endure hours or even days of apologies if I think I have upset him (he is rarely if ever irritated and is usually distressed by my guilt tripping myself over nothing). I have come to the conclusion that I can't drop it, or believe it's okay to drop it, just because someone says it's okay as I don't believe them and think they are actually angry with me.

DH has taken to quoting Matt Smith's Doctor telling River Song "you are forgiven, always" but I don't/cant believe him.

jess - Do you think it goes back to the feeling of not being good enough or to be more accurate, nothing you do or say ever being good enough?

We've had it ingrained in us so much that we can't believe anything anymore as it's get's brought up time and time again, so again we find ourselves apologising for the same thing, time and time again.

"jess - Do you think it goes back to the feeling of not being good enough or to be more accurate, nothing you do or say ever being good enough?"

I think this is certainly the case for some people but not quite what a

Sorry hit post too soon, again. Stupid phone. Was going to say in my case I am actually specifically convinced everyone is angry with me and irritated with me all of the time as I felt that way as a child. The apologising thing comes down to that as I think peo

Oh for crying out loud I can't even type a flipping post on MN without messing it up?!

Last try. I think people must be angry with me and I think I am waiting for something to happen - for them to express that anger - before I can believe it's resolved.

While I do have issues generally of not feeling good enough that isn't the issue with my parents. The issue there is they pretend I am fine and everything is perfect and nothing is or has ever been wrong. They don't act like I'm shit, they act like I'm fine and that's to their credit, which isn't in any of the books so I feel totally alienated. They perpetuate this fake reality and sometimes I start questioning whether I am the one who is mad and wrong. My mum acts like everything is bloody perfect all the time.

Pumpkin re infantilising, my dad treats me like I am five still. At my brothers recently he saw me pour myself one shot of JD and coke and basically stood over me telling me not to have any more. I'm in my 30s, married and haven't lived at their house in a long long time. My mum insists this is sweet. It's not.

Yes they sent dh to bed, turns out its because he fell asleep-well why not send him home??? Strange ...

Anyway turns out dcs do have gifts but mil want aunty & sil2 to drop them off and watch dc open them, oh well that ive had to agree to because sil2 is like the only one it that family that i'd call 'normal', aunt i'm not keen on, but to keep dh happy i'll be hospitable.

Actually let me be clearer on the apologising thing (and also apologise for posting so many times).

I still find it hard to believe I am forgiven, it's okay and it doesn't matter, or doesn't matter any more, unless someone has screamed at me, hit me or told me I am spoiled, ungrateful or disrespectful.

Jess, posting on phones is a nightmare at the best of times. You've done well to get that lot posted - I'm impressed.

That to me seems as though they are not listening, not wishing to realise anything is wrong.

Pumpkin, if your DH did fall asleep maybe it was better that he stayed and not driven home from a safety aspect if anything. It's still weird though.

Jess, that's so confusing even as an adult. I dread to think what it must have been like as a child.

I remember talking to my dad after my 2nd mc.
Neither of my siblings phoned or texted me to ask how I was, nothing. Like it never happened.
I told him I was upset by that.
And he told me I "just had to get over it"
I cannot remember my mother ever cuddling me. Even as a child. Or playing with me.
:(

I'm in Scotland staying with the outlaws but I'm lurking and reading. I always apologise, feel guilty, think it's always my fault, worry people are angry with me etc.

My Fathers aggression, intimidation and humiliation tactics as a child have never left me and always being blamed for everything and labelled as a difficult child. I'm so glad I didn't see them this Christmas.

Although spending time with my in laws is always interesting. I may buy the toxic in laws book!

I did give my Mum a present for my Dad and he sent me an e-mail thanking me for it but saying I'd said he wasn't meant to contact me. He clearly missed the point! After he threatened and abused me by text and e-mail at Easter and the messages were escalating and becoming more frequent, I asked him to stop or I'd have to call the Police.

That's obviously been lost on him in the intervening months.

It was terrifying at the time

It was probably a mistake to send a present at all though I couldn't escape the fact I felt petty if I didn't. Fog again.

Baubles...I know.
It's my mums birthday next week.
I am determined not to send her anything.
But I will feel dreadfully guilty about it.
My parents haven't replied to my e mail...so I guess that means that either they don't care enough to reply or they aren't as toxic as I think?
Oh fgs, how fucked up am I?

Saw this thread mentioned a couple of times on AIBU and, not sure I'm even posting in the right place, but thought I'd get some of my thoughts down.

I've always had a difficult relationship with my mum. I was a very depressed teenager and I know (she's told me) she struggled with that and didn't know how to help. Long story short, I took ADs and sorted myself out over a long period of time (though her comment of 'ooh, we don't want you running out of those' when I asked her to remind me of repeat prescription sticks in my mind as incredibly hurtful). Main cause of depression for me is our difficult relationship and a feeling that I not good enough and she doesn't really love me.

Anyway, without posting a mammoth story, I'm now in my 30s, married with a young ds and mum lives abroad (has done for several years) with second husband. Contact is sporadic and generally traumatic. Latest 'holiday' with her and her dh culminated in me breaking down in restaurant and telling her how I feel - her response was to say I make her feel the same. No sympathy, hug, or attempts to make amends.

I feel that is not a very loving response. Am I wrong? I hope if my ds ever needs to tell me I'm hurting him that I'd be able to listen and try to help him. Not tell him he's hurting me.

I've always been over sensitive apparently. And I'm now scared of fucking up motherhood as my template for it isn't too exemplary. I don't blame my mum for everything (as she said I do) and accept my part in our relationship. But it seems she can't. Or won't.

I have two brothers, one older, one younger. Younger one has similar feelings about dm, but rarely expresses these. Older one copes by not letting anything get to him, it seems. So I feel completely alone in this, and therefore easily blame myself. My lovely dh is my rock, luckily.

Anyway, just got some of this out so thank you for anyone reading. Oh, and laughably I'm a psychologist... Though I have thought about getting therapy about this over the years.

Welcome Misty. Sorry to hear all you have suffered. Nosy question but I thought psychologists HAD to be in therapy? Which is what put me off studying to be one when I considered it (though am in therapy now).

Fwiw you sound like you have a much better approach to parenting already. And no her response was absolutely not right.

Thanks jess. You're right, all psychologists except my type do have therapy as part of training...and fwiw I think we (my profession) should too.

You don't know how much it means to hear someone validate my hurt at her response. I came to a point some years back, after we'd hit rock bottom, when I considered cutting contact. But decided there must be a way forward and things seemed to improve slightly. As long as I played the game on her terms it seems... But now there's ds involved and I don't want to get in the way of her having a relationship with him. I just don't think I can have a relationship with her anymore.

It's like she wants the mother daughter thing, but not the inevitable bad bits that go along with the good bits. Ad I spent a lifetime hiding the 'bad' me until I met the man who accepted all of me - and didn't run away or reject.

Misty.
She sounds emotionally absent.
And that's not yr fault.