"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Just wanted to come in on the 'pretending' issue and how damaging it is. Pretending denies the existence of all the pain experienced and causes huge confusion and isolation; it also sets up very unhealthy patterns for a life of pretending in relationships. something I have learnt to my bitter cost, and a huge part of abusive relationships from bullying to abusive parenting and partners. It has taken all my life so far to realise this is their pretence and denial of my existence, because to deny my experiences is to deny my life. I am going through another wave of feeling very angry and bitter about all this which I really think is important to go through and come out the other side of, whcih I s why I think it is so unhelpful to hear counsellors make out that parents 'do the best they can', as to me it is another denial of ones feelings and being asked to consider them, which is what has been at the root of the problems. Fi

Princess I absolutely agree. That was the golden moment for me, when I realized that the family mythology was contributing to my deteriorating mental health and that my parents were in a way killing me.

I have OCD and I really do blame it on growing up functioning in two realities at once, the one where Dad drives me home from school with an open beer between his knees and the one where "no one in this family has a drinking problem".

Talk about unhealthy!

(Just to clarify, my OCD became so distressing and debilitating at this time last year that I actually figured out how I would end it all. Thank heavens for my wonderful DH, sister, bestie, and a great CBT therapist who all supported my going NC, and lo! My OCD is suddenly manageable. Coincidence? I think not.)

Pumpkins...so sorry. That is hard. He shouldn't take out on you.
Fi...I have been guilty of thinking that wrt my parents in the past..that "they did their best" but as Susan forward says "their best was inadequate" :(
I can just imagine what they would say if I said that to them!!
I actually think they might be relieved I have asked for NC for the "foreseeable future"...maybe we will all be happier?

oh a lovely thing to hear thunder (but awful the stage that you got to, very sad for that). I still continually question whats real and can slip between the different worlds, especially when any family around and my identity and self-esteem is trapped in that. One says 'alcoholic' the other denies completely, and I don't know what one is now. Police recently asked me if Ex was alcoholic and I just can't answer, although I know that he left DC alone and at risk in order to get drink. No one is 'real' in my family and I hear it again and again on here, that its 'swept under the carpet', 'nobody mentioned it again', 'carry on as if nothings happened'. Oh gawd, sorry, ranting.. I am feeling completely wretched and sick of this, and far too osrry for myself with the advent of another year looming.

Fi.
Yes, I know.
If I dont change things it will be another year wasted, more of my love and time spent on people who don't deserve it.
My mum is ill - has had been in poor health for years. My dad is ill but terrified its serious and he will have to retire and be at home wi mum 24:7.
Can't say I blame him.
I certainly won't be caring for her! I did my but from age 9-26.
I'm done.

I really hope for more happiness for you Badvoc their best was at the very least inadequate, but in reality harmful, neglectful, and actively damaging (best doesn't come into it) - sorry but I am in a place of little forgiveness right now and can only think about how self-centred and immature and self-indulgent my parents were (losing tempers, neglect, etc.) and I'm sure yours too from what you have said.

Thank you fi.
I think the anger is a stage you have to go through tbh...like grief?
Maybe we are grieving...for the childhood we never had and the parents who didn't love us enough.
(Hugs)

Salbertina sorry you're feeling so low. It's a strange, rootless, limbo time of year, which is supposed to be full of family being together, and it's not surprising we feel hopeless and lost. I personally can't wait for January.

My parents are currently holding the dc's presents over our heads. On Xmas day my dh talked me into phoning them and letting them talk to the dc. Put them on speaker, made this very obvious so they didn't try anything too manipulative. They went on about Santa coming to their house and how they had 'lots of things' for them.

Got a text today (following last contact when I told mother I do not want to see her) asking if we 'fancy a drive to collect the presents' and ending with 'all are welcome HERE' !! Geez. Almost text back "except gay people, gypsies, black people, Asians, Southerners, Germans, 'common' people etc etc, eh?!?" but thankfully stopped myself in time and didn't engage.

Blimey creepy, almost like mil!
She won't let my dh bring home the gifts, he was there yesterday and came home empty handed.
Because of course that isn't good enough for mil, she wants aunt to bring them or sil and when my dh decided he was feeling ill, mil text that my dc could go round hers and open them knowing full well my dc & i are nc!

That woman cannot and will not listen to the word no and dh falls for most of it. But my dc are never, ever seeing that woman again & if she cared as much as she says she does then i'm sure dc would have their gifts by now.

Personally i would rather my dc don't get gifts from her as it fuels everything. Most of the time my dc aren't interested in her as they know she is a spiteful woman but when gifts are involved, the dc are mercinery like all kids are.

Dh still laying down miserable, has shouted at dc on & off all day, been antisocial with my dm and is acting like he is going backwards again.
Still wondering what on earth they did yesterday that put him into such a state..

Oh pumpkin I really feel for you - I know that I go really distant, physically and mentally, when the toxics have got to me, and I'm sorry that you have to deal with that - I feel so sorry for my lovely dh and kids when it happens. It makes me even angrier that they suffer too.

You are so right about the presents being fuel for more trouble. They are trying to appeal to the dc's desire for stuff, to make us the bad guys. And it's not even about the dc, is it? It's about your mil and my parents getting what they want and being the centre of attention. They sent my dc a package for Xmas after I said I didn't want to see them - it turned out to be pyjamas, unwrapped, all bundled up together in brown paper with no names on. To get their real presents, we all have to dance to their tune. Ugh.

thanks badvoc I don't know what the 'process' is for this, I know the need to go thro the stages of grieving the loss of someone, and I found that 'easy' when I lost someone dear to me (I realised I had coped with far far more than the death of a loved one when that happened). It sounds horrible to say that, but grieving that death was a calm and quiet and sad (and easy) affair. This is just not! There doesn't seem to be any end to it and it comes and goes, ups and downs, a rollercoaster, and its so much more complex. There wasn't any soul searching or complexity of all the different angles around it like this. Fi

Living with this all my life has shattered the core of me, and I don't know where to start the rebuilding or if it can be rebuilt.

Shattered the core of me.
Yes.
That's just how I feel.
Spent most if yesterday feeling physically ill...headache, nausea.
Probably down to everything that's happened.
2013 has got to be about me, my dh and dc.

Oh Badvoc, maybe my dhs illness is partly physcological then...didn't think of that. We have all been ill this past week, but he is taking it to new levels-laying on sofa all day, not going anywhere & doing absolutely nothing.

Even though he has actually been physically sick i do think most of it has been caused by visiting his parents. He is just sitting there staring into space & murmuring.

Kids are fed up, i'm fed up and it doesn't help that last night he was bombared by texts & emails about why have i blocked them all on fb and how she's done nothing wrong (getting to involved in dispute with pil) and 'sharing' pics with defriended mil.
Asking why don't our dcs meet anymore and why cant they go to mils for group photo in pjs like last year etc etc, on and on and this was really late last night.

Tbh i want nc with all of the ils it makes life easier as they all run rings around eachother & boycott dh if he doesn't follow. Dh doesn't understand why i have decided to do this, but i know its the best way forward for me & the dc and tbh wish he would make the same decision as his life would be free from hassle and he could grieve for the family he wants, but i know i have to wait it out in hope he eventually admits to himself how bad they all are

I was on about sil

This is the hardest bit, pumpkin (well, it was for me). You've made your decision but he is still adamant. Again I'd say gentle challenging at every point, to illustrate why you've made your decision. Don't slag them off or get angry (although I don't think showing occasionally how badly this affects you is particularly a bad thing).

He's getting childish crap from his sister about FB - just tell him truthfully that you don't want contact with her so why would you let her see your FB page? Ask him why she gets to phone up your house and question your decisions about your own children.

He's in deep and I think it will take a lot of gentle questioning and talking. I really feel for you, I know how hard it is (if it wasn't for the DCs I would wonder if you were my SIL!)

Pumpkin...could you encourage him to read toxic parents?
Its helped me a lot to see that actually, they are and never will be the parents they should have been.
I honestly dont know what will happen now....i hink there will have to be some sort of showdown (thats how my family do things anc then its all swept under the carpet again)

When Dh and I had our long chat the other night he let slip that for my 40th birthday he asked my mum 3 months before to ask some of my Irish relatives to come over and celebrate with us.
A month before my birthday she told him she hadn't as she "couldn't cope" with visitors. Then a month later went to Ireland for a week to see them all.
:(
I'm just not worth the bother to them, am I?
No texts or phone calls from my brother over Xmas, nothing.

Really fed up today. Somedays I feel like I'm coping with things really well and others I dont. It's hard when I see husband with his parents and family. I question wether they are being funny with me as this is what I expect. Its like I'm always looking for issues. I never feel anyone likes me.

Its really crap, I don't get along with my mum that well but sometimes feel as though I have to defend her. Eg we was going to go out NYE with my young sister and her new bf then today he says hes thinking of inviting his mum and dad but then I think well my mum or dad wasn't mentioned. It's as though I feel hurt about this even though like he says we always fall out. He doesn't like mum because of us always falling out but somehow I feel I have to defend her. Can anybody tell me what's wrong.

Maybe its my fault. I don't get on with mine coz of problems many of you have mentioned and feel so unloved and insecure. Am i punishing Him because he gets on with his family? Am I looking for faults in them? It's more his mum really.
It hurts as I just don't feel he understands how sad I am over my family. He says he does but how can he? He doesn't know the pain I'm in and how can he when he gets on with his family. Sometimes I feel envious I'm ashamed to say of other families that get along. I just wish I had that bond. The bond I'm longing for. Some days I feel okay and others I don't.

Sometimes I question wether they are narcisstic etc. but surely I would know that. They have said the odd word over the years. Eg his mum. But probably only words that anyone would have with one another. I think because of my family ESP mum I question other people more.

I always feel people are out to hurt me I don't value myself at all. In fact sometimes I wish I wasn't born. It's doesn't help that I have OCD and have had this since about 8 and just over think completely.

Maybe I'm selfish but I don't see how we can stay together perhaps I'm being over dramatic but it's hard fr me dealing with not much love from my family and just always feeling like I'm doing things wrong. Then trying to play happy families with his. Does anyone else feel this way? How do I deal with it? I just don't feel happy at his family dos when I'm so upset about my family. I feel like His are perfect and mine are messed up. I'm a bit resentful that he doesn't get it. I feel like such a nasty person.

Seeing his family reminds me of everything that I don't have. And I feel out of it or left out as I don't see them that often. And his mum gets on with his 2 sisters, sees them all the time and it's reminds me of what I don't have with my mum. It makes me a bit angry even though i wouldn't want anyone else to suffer. My mum has always been emotionally unavailable. That's why I find emotional interactions hard. I never know what to say. I feel numb when people say they care about me or done well. I just don't believe it.

Am I best not meeting up with them, shall I stay away? I mean his mum has spent a fortune on me at christmas and taken us out for a meal etc. I feel awful, she says she's missed me etc. So when I said before an odd word had been said it was really not much at all. Everyone has odd niggle but it's like I'm trying to find issues. Can anyone relate?

Oh Badvoc - I sense your utter sadness in that post but how lovely it was of your DH to try to make your birthday special so far in advance!
They don't deserve you!!