"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

PS - badvoc there is no such thing as 'have to'. This is FOG. You have choices to make.

That sounds awful forgetmenot!
My sister goes on holiday on sunday so no danger from that quarter.
I am going ignore my mums birthday...
Need a complete break.
Sorry, what is FOG?

Sorry badvoc. It means Fear, Obligation and Guilt - the three things toxic parents hold over you. It's in one of the (many!) recommended books I'd read!

Well done to your dh forgetsmenot for making the decision to go NC.
I bet it makes the world of difference to your lifes

Unfortunetly my dh still takes the constant badgering & put downs from pils and is on his way there today to see them, not only has he said that he'll be "glad to get the visit over with" but his aunt has picked him up, just another example of him being under their control-he wasn't even ready when she declared she was collecting him!

I did say to him that he doesn't 'have' to go, but at the moment he'll do anything to please them.

I'm hoping he comes home and nothing has been said, but i very much doubt it.

I gave him all the presents to take, even sils and he said oh no leave those here we will see her soon, to which i said he might aswell take them as i don't want sil at my house either as she is the go-between between mil and him.

"When you wonder if your feelings are trivial, would it help to consider whose voice it is that is telling you that? Whether it's a parent's, or the voice of the sad little girl trying to make sense of why she is being treated as if she were unworthy or unlovable."

Good question. The voice I'm struggling with is the one that tells me I'm exaggerating, that it's all in my head or I'm blowing things out of proportion, that I was a rude and disrespectful cow as a teen (I was!) so it can't have been easy, that my parents didn't really do anything wrong, that the things I have shared on here are laughably trivial, that my feelings would matter if they were "right" in the first place.

I don't think that's my voice at all, is it?

I don't think parenting is ever easy but the things that are really upsetting me right now are that I was told not to feel how I felt ("well don't feel like that then), that nobody ever thought hmm her father is clinically depressed maybe someone should check she is okay / tell her teachers / etc, and that my parents went home and left me alone after I took an overdose and was having my stomach pumped.

I think the hospital told them to go. Doesn't mean they should have. I swallowed something that would have killed me several times over if I hadn't told a friend - I meant business. There was a small intake of breath from the Samaritan when I told him what I took.

Sorry for posting ANOTHER ramble, you must all be sick of it. I have no idea why this is bothering me so much now. Six months ago I felt fine living near my parents and not thinking about stuff from the past, being exasperated by my dad but not dwelling on all this - now it's all I can think about some days.

Badvocsanta I can't advise on finding someone on the NHS but for someone private try www.bacp.co.uk/. I looked for a referral service so I could say "I need a therapist wh

Sorry hit post by accident. So I could say " I need a therapist who lives in x area, costs no more than x and will do x and x but not x." The guy who did the assessment gave me a few options including going back to him. Having pictured him going "Oh bloody hell, who can I palm this one off on" it was very helpful and validating to be invited back to see him. They all have sliding scales - I told him what I could afford (was not asked to prove this) and he charged accordingly, which is the bottom end of his scale. It's not cheap but is definitely going to be worth it.

I went low contact from May & no physical contact the last couple of months. Text & email contact has now ceased on my part too. The FOG theory sounds spot on. I still get "bewildered & hurt" emails & voicemails occasionally but they affect me less & less. Luckily they would be v unlikely to turn up (too ill to travel the 12 miles - although managed to drive 60 miles to Bristol to be in the audience for Deal or No Deal recently!!!)
DH is now going through the FOG with his parents. He has gone low contact but is now getting abusive letters voicemails & emails from them & his sister & an attempt to take control of DSD. She is at their house today & he is meeting them all at a panto tonight (DC & I not invited) & literally sweated & tossed & turned all night having bad dreams last night. I wish he was further along the path than me but he's right in the thick of it. I feel very calm & zen now so the grief was worth it for me. But he's in hell.

There is a national register of therapists I think

pumpkin I could have just about written that a year or two ago. 'Have to' was one of the most often used phrases from both MIL/SIL and unfortunately DH.

At first he was upset with me for going NC - he said he felt very torn as he wanted to always be on my side but he wasn't ready to cut all ties. I assured him that I was happy for him to make his own decisions but (and this was the hard part) he had to understand the consequences. It wasn't long before his superficial contact with them started to go horribly wrong. I supported him and his decisions to carry on. But I reiterated that it was his choice.

He started to see that just as his parents were abdicating their responsibilities and apparent free will ('they can't help it', 'they don't mean it') so was he. He was willingly participating in it and had the option not to.

The final straw as I say was when his mother threatened to kill herself dramatically (again) just so he would 'have it on his conscience'. He came home in a state, but resolved that was the last straw and has stuck to his guns. The imminent arrival of dc1 has hardened his resolve.

That's not to say he won't wobble or change his mind in future. From my own experience all I can say is - be firm to your own choices (which likewise are yours to make), support him in his whilst making it clear that he is not the powerless person he thinks he is, and don't engage with family crap. Any resolution he comes to by himself will be far stronger and with no resentment attached than one you nudge him towards.

Phew. That was a long one. It has, though, completely transformed our lives. I feel sorry for his siblings partners though - no likely escape for them :(

Good luck, it is so, so difficult.

Jess I also took an overdose at 13 after being moved area again (running away from one of my father's affairs again) being bullied at my new school & spending all my time alone while they ran a pub. My mother took me to the hospital, they pumped my stomach & let me go home. All the way back in the car she bollocked me for "attention seeking & trying to make them feel guilty" smacked me across the side of my head & pushed me in my room & slammed the door & went back downstairs to the pub. It was never mentioned again.

Midwife I'm really sorry to hear that. Makes mine seem trivial in comparison really (I know that's not what you meant, just saying). When I was 18 my boyfriend at the time told me his mums reaction to his own suicide attempt (before we met) was to slap him round the face. Apparently this was something to do with her being a Christian. No, really.

Sorry about my huge ramble above. You must all think I'm so bloody self centred.

Hey Jess - it was how we felt at the time that's significant not the "badness" of what happened. I felt guilty for years. We mustn't minimise our experiences - that were all bad.

We moved back to our home county (DH and I grew up not far from each other) because we have friends and family here. Suddenly it is driving me absolutely crazy living somewhere where lots of people think my parents are terribly nice and respectable. My mother has a very impressive job (can't say what without identifying myself in the process). I feel like I'm in their territory if that makes sense.

All of our close friends met my parents at our wedding and quite a few have told me how cool they are and in particular how cool my dad is. Younger me would have been delighted as it would make a change from people thinking my whole family was weird and dorky.

Adult me feels like she's gone through the looking glass. As I have ceased to see my parents as a reflection of me, I no longer want them to impress people and preferred it when my friends disliked my dad, stupid as that may sound. Who is going to believe me now?

Midwife I know - was just saying it sounds awful what you went through. I'm sorry.

Going to get offline now, dominating thread too much. Hope everyone is as ok as can be,

You're not dominating the thread jess, it's important everyone shares when they need to. Besides, look at the novel I wrote(!)

Midwife as ever your parents sound just appalling, I hope you have had a peaceful Christmas.

Midwife.
i ran away a couple of times...got brought home and belted for that.
Even my pe teachers taking me into the office amd asking about the bruises all over my body didnt wake me up.
All siblingsfight, right?
There issomeome atchurch ican talk to. Not surethough.
So hard.
I hada reallysobering thought thismorning - my eldest boy is 9, 10 next summer.
At his age i was cleaning, cooking, ironing, up at night with my mum and her panic attacks....
Makes me go cold :(

That all makes sense forgetmenots-the more i try to nudge him, the worse it makes the situation for him as he then gets the badgering from both sides.

I even wrapped and took part in all the present buying for them still this year although i very much hate them just to make dh happy.
Next year i don't think i'll be doing it though, i will leave it up to him as he has already moaned i haven't spent enough on them-but tbh no amount of trying will please them.

They are the sorts of people who buy you socks & draw liners and expect radley hanbags & sat navs in return!
Can't wait to see what crap mil sends this year!

She sent him home with a gift for me for no particular reason, to keep me sweet....well that didn't work and given that it was a used 'mother of the bride' bracelet that was hers from her yet to be divorced dd & dh of course i wasn't going to fall for it

I often get asked by dh whether i like it and why doesn't he see me wear it, well considering it was mils bracelet to start with and the fact she has scribbled the words "mother of the bride" in big black pen is a big giveaway why i don't wear it

Oh Badvac that sounds horrible
My pil started making my nieces make them cups of tea, wash-up , put shopping away, tidy and all manner of things when they were around 7yo.
When my eldest niece started her periods fil would march her of the sofa in pain to make breakfast for them at 8 on a Sunday. I know this as they used to come round mine to get a break from it. Sil wasn't much better for carting them off there every weekend and tbh she neglects those children, so much so i put of seeing them as it upsets me and i feel like throttling sil everytime i see her
Was going to ring the ss on her due to the kids treatment but dh says no it wouldn't be fair on sil-to fuck with fair!
An insight into what my poor dh must have suffered as a child, those poor children and they are very frightened or fil who is a towering bully

Understand completely pumpkin. It is nice (and helpful) to be the only person in his life not putting demands on him.

That said, if he says things that are clearly just direct panic about his mum's reactions, gently challenging can help (I found!) to clear the fog. Like: 'you didn't spend enough on my mum'. Response: 'what makes you say that, it is a kind and thoughtful present and I hope she likes it.' All of which of course is true, but the obvious answer is 'because she is going to give me shit about it.'

When that becomes even his mental answer to all of these challenges, the truth is unavoidable.

I'm a bit ashamed to say that although I'm usually quite a patient sort and so don't mind doing this kind of support, I lost it one day over a similar thing - DH accused me of spending more on my mum at Christmas than his. It wasn't true because my Mum's birthday is shortly after Christmas and so the present was connected.

He was uncharacteristically angry (he usually has a very mild temper) and shouted at me 'you can't do this to me, you have to buy something else.' I pointed out calmly that a) he didn't have to tell his mother what I had bought my DM b) if he did there was a rational explanation and c) no one else cares about this and d) what did he mean do it to him. He practically sobbed at me 'you don't understand how unhappy she will be with me, fix it.' He was like a child and I lost it - I told him that I wasn't pandering to it and I certainly was not buying her anything else, that it was his choice to give her a present, his choice to stupidly discuss any other presents, his choice to give a shit if she didn't like it and finally his choice to blame all this on me. I'm not proud of it. It did open his eyes though to the damage little things could do and the wider problems it caused.

I suppose what I'm saying (lengthily!) is that love and support are what he needs, but you have needs too, and he has choices. Choices is my most used word with regard to this - we all have choices to make (including the toxic parents). Even when it is so hard a small choice like posting here is huge. Remember that you can't always support and that this affects you, don't be afraid to challenge his way of thinking while supporting any final decisions.

badvoc :(

I really, really would urge you to think and consider going NC. Your parents sound completely self-entitled and abusive. Very sad, and I would let the birthday pass. Easier said than done, but please think about what is best for yourself.

Just marking my place as I'm trying to read the thread before I respond and make my own contribution.

Sooooo many boxes are being ticked here, not as bad as most of you but it certainly answers a few things.

My mother is sitting in front of the tv. The NSPCC ad came on - the one where there are 3 children who are being abused in different ways (emotional abuse, neglect, physical abuse). She's openly scoffing at it.
She also got very riled when there was an item on the news earlier about the government introducing a new system for picking up on physical abuse of children. Then she told a "funny" anecdote about accidentally burning my sister's face with a cigarette when she was a pre-schooler.

As unpleasant and distressing as it is, it's helping because it's making me feel like she really is a fucked up human being.

Hopkinette, my parents do the same kind of stuff it make you want to shake them and yell "It's not funny!" sometimes, doesn't it?

I just heard from my sister that my awful parents sent by lovely, sweet nephew (11) nothing for Christmas and didn't even phone. I think they cut him out because they're angry at me going NC (they think my scapegoat Sis put me up to it as they see me as a non human incapable of thinking or doing for myself.)

God, I never thought they'd stoop so low.

Your poor nephew :(

Forgetmenots.
Her birthday will be ignored.
As for my dads hospital appt tomorrow...I don't know. I guess if its bad news someone will let me know...
If something is wrong with dad she will make it all about her anyway.
My ds1 was a very poorly baby...iugr which meant he was basically a prem ofn32 weeks.
My d nephew was a prem of 27 weeks.
It wasn't til my nephew came home from hospital that they decided that they wouldn't smoke in the sure anymore...my ds didn't warrant that care but dn did.
Still hurts 9 years on....