"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

As someone else said to me (forgot who sorry) you don't question your normal because it's your idea of normal - until something make you realise it's not.

Jess - people for years have told me how lucky we are to be so close as a family but today has made me realise only as strong as I hold everything together. Hurts me to think my parents are at theirs eating, sticking up for DBro and his behaviour and slagging off me. DH was brilliant today. He has made me finally see that things are not my fault...which is how my family make me feel.,..,

Hello all,
I've posted on here before but have name-changed. Felt the need to share how my Christmas has gone so far as I've taken so much comfort and strength from you all sharing your experiences on this thread.

My background is that I am 40 and only just realised this year how narc my parents were/are when I realised they were treating my DD as appallingly (esp compared to how they treat my DS) as they had treated me - and then I found my now ExH trying to do the same to me. Basically they've never treated me as a valuable human being, and all my adult life they have spoken to me like a child. When I told them I was leaving my H, my mum told me I was a silly girl and my dad told me I had broken my mother's heart. It's been quite a year!

So this year, being on my own with the DCs, I made it very clear that we would be having a very quiet Christmas with ExH joining us for the day, because things would simply have to be different this year. In previous years I've had the entire family over. And once they arrive (always earlier than requested) they outstay their welcome, criticise the DCs at night for not knowing when its adult time (there are 10 drunk adults hooting in the room below their bedrooms ffs!), and mother tries to score points over the in-laws).

Mother chipped away continuously (despite me drastically cutting down contact with her), texting daily "what is happening on Christmas Day?" And getting the same answer..... So I realised that if I didn't make some sort of alternative arrangement, the bugger would think it was her right to turn up anyway.

So I had them all over on Christmas Eve, and as soon as it was DDs bedtime I said clearly that she always struggles to sleep when there are visitors round, so if they wouldn't mind leaving.... Mother reluctant as she doesn't value Dd as a person, but bowed to peer pressure.....

And I haven't seen her since! Bliss! Now wondering why I've put myself through so much stress over the years - she makes me feel so on edge and I haven't missed that at all. DCs and I have treated today like a weekend day, lazing, eating, going out for a while.... Magic!

I've had the odd text to which I've sent polite replies, offering no clue as to what we're doing. I'm a bit sad that I'm so much happier when I don't see her, I'd love to have a better relationship with her, but it's very clear that its never going to happen. I don't think she does it on purpose - she is perplexed that I'm not dancing to her tune anymore but does not seem capable of reflecting on how it's come to this (certainly not in an honest way) - but I no longer have to put up with it ad infinitum.

So, thanks for reading if you got this far, and know that this thread has really helped to turn my life around - I'm so very grateful for that.

Here's to a peaceful 2013 for us all x

Well done silversnow....it's hard isn't it

I thought I just had toxic exH until yesterday. Now I realise I have my family too. Will not let them get me down.

2013 will be good for us all xx

Yes 2013 is the year for resolution & strength for us all. WE MATTER. OUR CHILDREN MATTER.

Hugs to all of you that are going through this hell of toxic parents

Makes me realise what my poor dh is going through at present, although he is yet to admit their faults to himself or i, i think deep down he knows they are toxic but feels the need for them to approve of him & aknowledge him.
Of course i know this will never happen, but dh is not yet ready to give up on them unfortunetly

He was supposed to be seeing the pil tomorrow, but they have insisted its now fri as all the ils will be there: I'm assuming this is so they can all boycott him and manipulate him together. Considering mil was so desperate to see him, i find it odd the day has been resheduled at such short notice
Not looking forward to his return fri, as i know he will come home upset, guilt tripped and manipulated mainly begging for my forgivness to mil and for me to restart her seeing dc- This will never happen due to reasons i could go on forever but i wont.

My homephone has just rung, and it was mil agggggaaaaiiinnn arrrggghh, woman is a loon-she knows my kids will be sleeping & dh isn't answering mob so she decides to ring landline....thanks you absolute cow for waking up my dc and putting dh on eggshells although we didn't even answer it!

Seriously mnetters how do i get these people out of his life, short of an ultimatium???

My therapist asked me to consider that maybe my mum didn't make a conscious decision to neglect or ignore me but did the best she was capable of ie she just isn't capable. I don't buy it. I just don't. I'm not absolving her like that.

I feel the same way, jess. My parents are intelligent people, and they had all the knowledge (awareness of their own shitty childhood and what they disliked about it), and all the tools (reflection, awareness, knowledge of right and wrong, free will) to be adequate parents. They failed to be. There is no good reason for that apart from utter self-centeredness, and that is NO excuse.

Exactly hotdamn and I am going to tell him how I feel next time as I couldn't articulate it then. I like the bit in Toxic Parents that says baloney, your parents are accountable (about not feeling you can blame your problems on others).

Silversnow glad things have been better, well done for standing your ground. Is it a sexist thing ie valuing boys more?

Pumpkin I know I stuck up for your DH but your situation sounds intolerable, and I would honestly recommend trying to talk to a professional about it. It's not ok that you are being harassed on a daily basis.

If you don't mind my asking, and I don't blame you do as it's an intrusive question, do you think your DH knows the way he was parented was wrong?

I feel like a bit of a fraud on this thread, i've followed you for years and you've made me realise my childhood wasn't normal or healthy but I've only posted once or twice under my old name. Thank you all so much for what you put into this, it's invaluable for everyone who reads it and recognises their situation in these posts.

I have an awful confession to make. I've just spent the last ever Christmas with my mother. She has terminal cancer, she has a few months at best.

I ran away from my family home at 18 because I couldn't stand being my mother's entertainment. She gets her kicks from pulling me, only me, no one else in the family apart. When I was I growing up I was fat, greedy, lazy, pig headed, an elephant, ugly, useless, thick, stupid, a waste of space, a brat, god I could go on, I don't remember one nice thing being said when I was growing up.

This Christmas, my sister as always is golden: she works so hard, she has such a hard time of it, she's so clever, she's so thin and beautiful, she does such an amazing job of keeping the family together. I get:

'you always did walk funny'

'you couldn't live in the country, you're too thick'

'you have no idea what hard work is'

'you are and always have been a lazy cow'

You couldn't get up at 6.30am like your sister'

'you've always been naive compared to everyone else in this family'

'your kids are just like you, you need to stop them being so greedy'

Her and my sisters boyfriend filmed me playing wii with my kids and spent hours sniggering at me, making the most disgusting remarks - they are horrific, I can't repeat them.

In short, we are going home tommorrow, back to my lovely, calm, loving, happy life and I can't wait.

I'll see her next at her funeral. I am done. I've smiled, sucked it up out of fear of being over-sensitive but fuck her, she's not going to be able to make me feel so shit anymore.

I am giving nothing more.

Hotdamn further to which: when I try to talk to my mum she goes on about her intentions and how great they were and I literally cannot listen.

Felt very shitty last week and called Samaritans for quite a long time. This week I am completely questioning myself as everything I think is wrong seems so very trivial and maybe it is all in my head. I am just going round in circles.

Bloody hell Betty you are not a fraud. Am so sorry about all you have been through.

My confession is that I won't be sad when she dies. She's bullied me mercilessly for 34 years. I feel ruined because of her.

Oh Jess, thank you. Thank you so much. I don't have any other vent for this stuff. I've always been told I'm over sensitive with no sense of humour, I've always felt like the unreasonable one.

Thank you so much for reading

No JessJess i don't think he does realise, unfortunetly
But knowing all the things i have been told their parenting was no where near right.

Sorry to hear about what you are going through betty, must be so hard x

Yes jess it does appear to be a sexist thing - growing up, my DB was idolised, I could do nothing right (despite being successful, popular, outgoing) and my mother is exactly the same with my DD and DS. My mother was brought up in a family where her DB was idolised and she was left to bring herself up..... Quite why she never spotted a pattern and made steps to change it for her own offspring is anyone's guess....

Betty it sounds like you have had a horrible time, I'm so sorry. You may find you need to grieve the lack of a proper relationship with your mother before you grieve her actual passing - have you got people / support to help you to do that? Hope you have a peaceful time when you get home, surrounded only by people who love you for who you are.

Hello all. Sorry to all those who are having a rough time of it right now at Xmas, hugs to you all.

A very late quick catchup from me to say a few points that I've noticed reading through the posts. First one is the confusion that is the start of this road to recovery (mine lasted until recently, and it seems it has taken many others most of their lives so far to reach this point of starting to get clarity, although confusion and fog still hangs around at times!) Also being targetted as 'over-sensitive' which is the protection and refuge of the bully, who doesn't know how to deal with any response so has to attack back, hence we've all been labelled it (so it seems from the postings).

Got very cross about a counsellor saying 'your mum did the best she could', what a bloody get out, quite frankly!!! It might have been all she was capable of but its no reason to get away with it! I absolutely feel my parents can only behave this way to people who allow them to, namely their young vulnerable children! fucking bullies & cowards and how dare they get away with it, no matter if they don't know any other way of operating.... and when given a chance and faced with the accusations of the appalling way their children have been made to feel as a result of their actions through their childhoods they deny, minimise, excuse, etc. blah blah blah, so STILL don't do it 'better'!!! just crap frankly.

All this treatment from parents makes one feel stupid, regardless of intelligence. I was horrified at the lady who was filmed having a great time with her kids and ridiculed (is that being 'the best they could be' - no of course it bloody isn't)

The right counsellor is one who understands toxic families and abuse, it isn't excusable. my exmother went to counselling, just the once and told me exactly the same 'excuse', which gave her support in her accusations of me being completely unreasonable about the whole thing, and her reason to continue denying any part of it! its very wrong and I would drop any counsellor that says it.

It is great to hear some of you feeling stronger to make the steps to block the abuse; any screening calls, just switch the ringer off!

For me, NC for many years now, and it still feels v. weird, and still doing realisations and changing and moving forward bit by bit, but feels huge steps on from how it was, and daily living with abuse/criticism/judgements/no support from those you expect it from and are daily disappointed in.

take care all - lots of hugs and keep churning it all out Fi

oops sorry for v long post!

Betty you are in the right place on this thread!

PrincessFionne I want to stick up for my therapist as he just asked me to consider it - he didn't say I had to forgive or understand. It didn't feel like he was making excuses for her. I like him and he has otherwise said the right things and been very understanding and helpful thus far.

The problem with therapy is it serves the person doing it so a toxic parent can just get worse as a result.

I feelthe same way....i wont mourn my mum much. My dad is harder...he is in a way as much a vitim of her as i am.
Its her birthday next week...got her a cd.
What do i do?

Calling Samaritans is a good move when you're feeling down, jess. Sorry to hear you've been feeling that bad.

When you wonder if your feelings are trivial, would it help to consider whose voice it is that is telling you that? Whether it's a parent's, or the voice of the sad little girl trying to make sense of why she is being treated as if she were unworthy or unlovable.

I can usually trace destructive thoughts to one of those two voices, and then it's easier to deal with them.

My mother pre-empted any criticism of her parenting by repeating often, as we grew up that "all parents make mistakes, Dr Spock said so in the introduction to his book, so I stopped reading it there" (inferring from it: so that's all right then). And of course she goes into narc meltdown now when the adult me has tried to confront her about elements of inadequate parenting.

The thing is, the good doctor never said that parents should never acknowledge their mistakes. She will never get that, though.

How would one go about getting a therapist?

Jess....i know what you mean!
Been questioning myself this morning too...

Can I ask those of you who have gone NC how it has been?
I think I may need to have a superficial relationship but am dreading seeing them again.
Dads hospital appt is tomorrow and its mums birthday next week.
Sigh.

Can only reply about my ILs badvoc

We are NC now (me for years, DH for over a year). It has been very hard for him but he tried superficial for the period after I stopped seeing them, and if anything it was worse - they realised they still had control so they were even more hateful, but were able to berate him for his detachment.

Final straw was another threat of suicide from MIL. He has gone NC but we have had letters to both home and work, calls, voicemails, emails and appearances at our home, including shouting through the letterbox and banging on the windows. It is still preferable to what went before and we can go weeks without a peep.

Christmas has been lovely and I have never seen DH more healthy and relaxed. We are expecting dc1 and when they hear this on the grapevine I expect a surge in activity. But we aren't responding, and so we have control over any damage caused. It's exhausting at times and I do have wobbles but when I think what our lives were like four years ago, I struggle to believe we lived like that.