"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

DH is asleep. Must stop offloading. Am not going to just whinge all over this thread all the time, honest.

Just thinking. Stupid brain. Remembering the time he bent a metal music stand in the garden.

One day we were walking through town and I saw some people I knew and stopped to say hi and he called me and I didn't follow, and I remember him shouting at me that "when your father says come, you come," like I was some kind of frigging dog.

Actually, he used to whistle for me to come. He thought it was fun/funny to have a different whistle (like two or three notes) for each person. And I suppose it might have been a cute family thing if we all did it, and not just him. Funnily enough, nobody whistled and expected him to come running.

In fact, I wasn't ALLOWED to whistle, e.g. along to the radio, because it annoyed him. Hypocrisy for the win!

And it kind of seems normal to me, because it was just a sound my dad made to get someone's attention, and he still does it to call to my mum. I always thought of it as a stupid family quirk, and not something wrong.

Thinking about it now though is making me feel really quite queasy. WHY the heck did I never realise how odd this was before? Or maybe it's not odd and I'm overreacting, I don't know.

But it's not all bad, so sometimes I feel I'm being unreasonable or going mad or something. We actually have a lot in common, e.g. we like the same sections of the paper - there are columns I always save for him. He used to make up stories about a hedgehog called Prickles and about different parts of our garden. He can do a perfect owl call whistle. Sometimes I can pretend it's all okay.

But I can't hug him. In my head he's like a block of ice. I don't like to go too near him. And I don't remember him ever teaching me anything, or reading to me, or having the patience to play with me really, and I feel sad when people say their dad taught them this or that. I did used to play chess with him, having learned from watching him and my brother, but he used to make me take my moves back if they weren't good enough, so I found it really stressful.

I am actually going to stop rambling now. Thank you, and sorry for going on.

Hi all, and sorry for not responding to some posts...this thread moves so quickly (says it all) that it's hard to keep up.

I am going to be in so much trouble, and I can't believe I am even worrying about this, but I have forgotten to send my mother a xmas card and she will make my life hell for it! Actually I think subconsciously I didn't forget; I just can't bring myself to buy her a nice card and she is all about the words and the verse...if it is a generic card she will just throw it away, and I simply cannot make myself buy a sentimental 'best mum in the world' card, which is what she wants. It would make me choke. It is too late now to send one anyway, and I will really cop it for this. It's bloody ridiculous to feel this way at my age.

My dp and I are trying for a baby together, and nothing would make me happier but I know her reaction would spoil it for me if I fell pregnant. She would say I am too old (I'm 44), and her first words would be (and I would put money on this) 'oh God, another fecking christening. I hate family fecking gatherings' I got this reaction when I was pg with dd2, so I deliberately had her christening while my mother was abroad on holiday, and she went mental. I can't win!
When my brother was having his dd christened, several people (including me) offered to pick her up to take her to the church. She made a big show of martyrdom by refusing and walking by herself (a good 30 mins walk) and then sat at the back of the church while everyone else was outside talking to each other. Then when the christening was over she told everyone to leave the church as the priest had things to do, and when people ignored her (they were taking photos etc) she stormed out and walked home, refusing to come to the party afterwards and I spent the rest of the day explaining to people why the grandmother wasn't there!

I have also just somehow got the blame for my brother's lack of contact with her. After her spoiling my birthday she went home, and I deliberately didn't contact her; in the end she text me, saying how ill she had been, worse she's ever been (she always says that), and how she hadn't been out and wouldn't be going out til xmas eve midnight mass (fine by me, means I don't have to see her). She also said that my brother was supposed to visit her but had been ill with norovirus. I cross texted her, telling her actually we had all been ill to, and that dd1 had been diagnosed with a twisted vertebra and her back was all taped up. I then sent another text immediately afterwards saying bro hadn't mentioned being ill when he had text me a few times. That was it...no mention of dd's back, just very curt texts wanting to know when bro had text, how many times, what about etc...I was flabbergasted, how the hell did I end up getting flack for my brother???

WHY the heck did I never realise how odd this was before? Or maybe it's not odd and I'm overreacting, I don't know.

jess because it was your version of normal. A child does not have the tools to question the environment she grows up in; only to accept it, and to learn from it. You are not over-reacting.
(even with my actual dog, I use her name when I want her attention, btw...)

Great, so just as I was hoping to hibernate over Christmas and shut out the world, now I'll be worrying about that instead.

fresh I understand the anxiety. I hope you find a way to file it mentally under "not of immediate concern" so you can continue to enjoy the holiday. It really does not deserve to be something you focus on now.

NewPatches eh, don't beat yourself up about forgetting the Christmas card. Last year, when I was reluctantly going to my parents' for Christmas, the only reason I had any gifts for them at all was because my kind aunt had sent me links to things on amazon that would be suitable gifts for them: at the time it just felt wrong to me to put in the care and time to choose them presents, when I was so boilingly angry at them and their damaging parenting. You forgot the card because she doesn't deserve your time and effort at the moment.

Re: the christening story, I can tell you that anyone witnessing that would have found her to be a ridiculous and self-defeating woman. She is harming only herself, you know.

Re: getting the blame. It's because somebody, anybody, has to be to blame. Apart from her of course. You are just collateral damage for her self-protection; it's nothing personal...

I'm just wondering how I got to the age of 31 before I realised it wasn't quite right. Some memories are of things that seemed weird or scary at the time. And some I'm looking at again with the clanging realisation that they are wrong. Like when you bite into a piece of bread and then you look at it again and realise it's mouldy. I hated the whistling thing, I found it horrible and embarrassing. Yesterday, when I remembered, I tried to think what might have happened if I had just ignored it or asked him to stop doing it and drew a blank. Evidently I did neither.

Patches, your mother sounds like my grandmother. I'm sorry you're feeling so anxious about the card - I don't know what to suggest but am sending hugs.

hello everyone I hope it's okay for a newcomer to post on this thread I know you're a kind lot and will 'get it.' Best wishes to you all at this time of year. I've come from an abusive family - alcoholic mother who was violent now dead. Had no contact with older sis for about 8 years, I tried to maintain it for a few years after mother died but it was a one way street, she's always been very jealous of me and nasty etc and in the end no contact was the best way to go, after much thought and upset and deliberation in therapy.

Subsequently exh left and have been single a few years. Recently met someone, my first relationship of sorts. Anyway he just doesn't understand why I have no contact, suggested I contact sis to make peace etc. I found the whole conversation very upsetting and came away feeling like I have to justify myself and feeling bad. I know he didn't mean to upset me. Not sure what I'm asking you guys just wanted to talk to people who understand I guess. thanks

Welcome Sarah. Pretty new myself but can already tell you from experience that people on this thread absolutely do get it.

Re your new partner - sorry you had that reaction. I personally think people default to seeing things through the eyes of their own experience.

For example, some owo

Sorry leaned on the wrong button on my iPhone...

I was going to say: people can find it hard to see outside their own experience eg people who thought it was heartless and shocking not to invite my gran to my wedding because they couldn't see past their own bond with their own gran.

I suppose one thing to explain to your partner is that making peace is a nice idea in theory, but in practice what does it really even mean? Sometimes being a relative isn't enough to warrant keeping someone in your life.

Sorry you felt you had to justify yourself. It's really not for anyone else to tell you whether you should be NC.

thanks jessjessjess I really appreciate it and it is so nice to be able to have somewhere to talk about it. Yes it's more to do with his own perspective and his own stuff and it's helpful to remember that. My life has been so much better since I went NC and it was definitely the right thing for me and my dcs - and my own sanity

Okay this has been bothering me all day. As a child I thought the whistling thing was just a stupid joke of my dad's that wasn't funny. As discussed above it was part of my idea of normal.

But it wasn't normal, was it?

Am I going completely blinking insane or is this actually really quite odd? Maybe I am just overreacting.

But you would think it was weird if someone you knew whistled for their child to come, like a dog, wouldn't you?

I desperately need to know if it really is weird or I'm freaking out over nothing.

Jessjessjess I agree that the whistling is odd and also that you weren't able to tell him how you felt. Then you're questioning yourself but it's not overreacting to not like being called by a whistle IMHO

My friends dad used to do the whistling thing to them. I remember being in a supermarket with them and he whistled and they went over to him. At the time I was surprised as I'd never seen anyone do that to a person - only dogs.

So no, it really isn't normal and you are definitely not overreacting.

Thanks - appreciate it's a bit awkward to answer as I'm obviously not asking from an objective viewpoint.

Emandlu - interesting to hear about someone else doing this. Unless we know each other which I really doubt is the case.

We lived in the north west if that helps jessjessjess. I think it's unlikely we know each other though.

I'm not being flippant here, but it's what Captain Von Trapp does in The Sound Of Music. In that context, it's used as an example of how cold and distant he is, and how he has no real relationship with/respect for his children. And the audience thinks it's funny because it's so outrageously bad. You are not overreacting.

My Dad used to whistle for my Mum. There you are - it is weird & controlling. He also used to smack his lips when he wanted a cup if tea & off she ran.

On the days and sometimes weeks I have nc with her, it is lovely...so calm and peaceful. But I don't know if my own guilt would allow me to go nc completely. I am so worried that, when she's gone, I would be consumed with guilt. And then I'd have no escape from it, ever. For those of you who do go nc, how do you manage it???

newpatches it gets easier over time. I did feel guilty at first but not any more. I only see it as 50 percent my responsibility now, she knows where I am, which helps (if she contacted me I'd respond as kindly as possible)
I suppose the longer it goes on the better it gets tbh as you can really start to have the life you want without constantly being dragged down. In my case I felt it was the best thing to be the mum I wanted to my dcs as well and break the cycle, which would've been much harder for me with contact IYSWIM

sarah would you really respond, kindly, if she made contact? What, for example, would you say?

I'm curious, and I'm asking because my enabler Dad has made 3 attempts at contact since I went NC at the start of the year. I was ...disappointed by the content of these missives: they all show continued, complete denial. And therefore I am not tempted to respond, until the day I'm happy to have a 'pretend' relationship with two deluded people.

Not been here a while, been a bit feaked out with the emo of it all lately (like Jess memories and feelings overwhelming and a FWit of an Ex screwing things up too).

Just here quickly to express wishes for peaceful christmas to all NC or not, especially for any DC involved.

Hope that all manage to spend their day as they choose with the ones they choose and can have some freedom from the daily burdens of the last year.

Sorry not been around to offer support.

((Christmas hugs to all)) xxx

Emandlu I'm in the south, so I doubt it.

CreepyLittleBat that's not flippant at all. In fact it's really helpful and validating, thank you. Would you believe I've never seen the Sound of Music?!

Patches there goes that insecure bonding thing - which is what causes the guilt. It's okay to put yourself first, but it's not easy when it's you, is it?

PrincessFionne so so sorry you are going through tough times as well.

Hugs to you too xxx

.. and just had to respond to the HotDamn comment, which is what I always think, exactly! yeah.. when I'm ready to have a false relationship with 2 deluded people supporting them in their delusion (not me, no more, no thanks). .. but do also think I wouldn't be mean or unkind, just be clear wasn't going to continue conversation/relationship, and put phone down/walk off.

Was recently asked by dc if I would see my ex parents if, say, one of them were dying and would I go to funeral!

Patches sorry that you somehow feeling responsible for her behaviour towards you. I am assuming you do, as if you didn't feel responsible you wouldn't have guilt? You have to stay because? So despite them being abusive towards you, you will always 'have' to stay?

and I also think that just because she sends it your way, doesn't mean you have to take it, accept it and feel bad for it? She is extremely toxic to you, and you are still very involved in that toxic relationship by the sounds of it, this was the main reason I went NC, as it is impossible to be in (for me! - I don't have the stomach or the resilience for it - all the blame coming towards me, also to resist or walk away or refusal to engage were all met with huge vitriol and further blame shared with anyone prepared to listen to poor her, and how awful a daughter I am - thats what I left and can't go back to and I don't feel guilty for not being able to stay with it or go back to it, just grief that it was all over and I'd finally accepted that to myself - the grief lasted a fair while, mixed with anger, and I'm still having realisations/flashbacks to incidents that I can now see clearer. Most recently someone acknowledged on here what a narc she was and that sent me spinning again (having it written down by someone i consider would know!).

I hope that something useful in my experience for you? Her behaviour is outrageous towards you and I really don't like to see you feel guilty for your normal reaction to that.

I think, and others can agree or disagree here, but I'm coming to the conclusion that toxic parents cannot be 'relationshipped' with and therefore pointless to try as any attempt to assert oneself is always met with intolerance, lack of empathy, understanding and blame, vitriol (and a personal attack on them). I think I'd have preferred to be able to 'deal' with them so that I didn't feel attacked undermined (unwanted, hated), but just couldn't and spent a long time thinking thats my failing, but then I've had a lifetime of towing!

oo.. that turned into a long post - partly cathartic for me!

.. and Jess thanks

I wasn't 'whistled' for, and imagine it to be a depersonalising experience. names are vital to our identity and the way they are used. The only time I ever saw it was in Sound of Music, where the father was disconnected from his children and displayed coldness and distance (same as ^thread).

Fi

Like lots of people I am finding it hard to care for an elderly mother who is nearing the end of her life who neglected me so badly throughout my childhood. She has needed me fo the last 8 yrs since my father died and is in sheltered accommadation near by.
Over the years she has indicated that she knew I had problems with an uncle.We have never talked about it but I was shocked to realise that she may have known and not acted to protect her little girl. I was sexually abused by an uncle from about 6 to early teenage years when I finally,alone,stood up to him.
I cant confront her as she is in her 90s and will die soon.But as I am having to be a craer for her as well as work full time I amm feeling increasingly more resentful.
How will i ever get peace about her and my past ?