"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

or now with my mum and dad and sliblings.

I know, it rings so true and makes sense. But you are equally entitled to say 'they can't affect me, but I would rather not have them in my life'.

You won't have failed or be stuck in the past if you actively choose to do that, when you're no longer afraid or upset.

You sound very strong so I've no doubt you will be successful either way. :)

Sorry that was for HotDAMN. But good luck and strength to everyone, especially over Christmas.

I hope this doesn't come across as callous, but I get comfort from knowing that there are so many people for whom Christmas is a time that highlights family dysfunction.

So it's still painful, but at least I'm not a freak or alone in this - far from it!

I know what you mean. Part of the pain of being the Black Sheep is the constant self-doubt, "is it me?" But actually no, it isn't.

Just had a sudden memory of my dad shouting at me that: "I'm an old man!" on the phone, like I was picking on him. Because he asked me a question and then decided I should stop talking and shouted at me until I did, and I tried to finish what I was saying.

I am having loads of, well, not flashbacks exactly, but flashes of memory, at the moment. Like I opened a box and stuff is coming out and I can't close it.

HotDAMN I don't think being NC is something to associate with pride, or lack thereof. It's about self-protection. You can justify remaining NC if it's what YOU need to live YOUR life in a healthy, safe way. Maybe stop thinking about it in absolutes? You don't need to ask yourself if you want to be NC forever. How about just considering what you're going to do right now, and going from there.

Oh, and it's NOT callous to appreciate the solidarity. You don't mean you're glad people feel this way; you mean you're glad those people have come together to talk about it.

I find other people's family Christmases immensely upsetting and stressful (because I just end up feeling on edge as that whole celebratory family environment isn't "normal" for me) and luckily DH is happy for it to just be me and him on Christmas Day.

I have to say that I'm struggling too atm.

This time last year was my first Christmas without the abusive Ex, I was scared and hopeful, resigned and resolute.

This year I see the disintegration of my family. I feel sick, nervous and as if there is something wrong at the core of my being, but I can't put my finger on it.

Will spend Christmas Day with Boyf and DS, will see mum on Christmas Eve for coffee.

I'm doing this for me, I'm keeping my good times to myself, and those that are there for me. Those that have let me down don't get to share good times.

Why does it feel so crap?

You can justify remaining NC if it's what YOU need to live YOUR life in a healthy, safe way. Maybe stop thinking about it in absolutes? You don't need to ask yourself if you want to be NC forever. How about just considering what you're going to do right now, and going from there.

Very true, jess. I guess that, as my recovery proceeds, I am beginning to question whether I need NC for my own protection, still: I feel so much stronger now, and accepting of what is, and what was. A little bit further along on this path, and I think that interactions with my parents won't feel threatening any more. Right now, I'm happy with the status quo. My long post earlier was to sound out whether I'm still NC for the right reasons.

When people ask me how come I'm not going home for Christmas, I say that "I find it difficult to be with my parents for the moment," and I think that truthfully sums it up.

Well done on negotiating a change in Christmas traditions, Hissy.

Came to this thread (having lurked for a while) because everything is on my mind all of the time right now. Series of triggers that led me to seek therapy, which in turn has triggered loads of memories, and now my stupid therapist is away for stupid Christmas.

So in other words have come here at a kind of crisis point, in that I just need a bit of hand-holding and solidarity.

Really not having a good day. Spent the last 45 minutes on the phone to Samaritans just to talk to someone and offload (NB not because I am in any kind of crisis or danger, just needed to talk), which helped a bit, but just feel really sad.

So basically trying to apologise for having a bad day. Sigh.

Jess I'm happy to hold your hand. Reading your earlier post made me think of Pandora's box. That is very much what I feel I have opened too so can certainly empathise with you.

You know you are free to post without judgement here. (((HUGS))).

Thank you, that's really appreciated. It's a friend's birthday, have to go down the pub and pretend to be happy and full of Christmas spirit.

To be honest the box opened before I started therapy, so it's not like it's my therapist's fault.

do you want to offload here?

How long since the box has been opened?

Some offloading in the big post above where I talked about Pig Latin and stuff. I fricking hated my dad from when I was about four or five. Spent my whole childhood being told:

• you will say you're sorry
• be more grateful
• be more respectful

While having to bite my tongue and not tell him what a hypocrite he was. Because he told me off for bad habits I'd learned from him, and I just had to take it. And my mum would laugh it off: oh, you know what he's like. It wasn't just that he got disproportionately angry, it was also just plain unfair and unjust, and I was expected to just accept that.

Recently stood up to him and told him I wasn't able to talk to him if he interrupted me in front of my nieces and nephews as it was setting a bad example. He didn't say anything, but looked beyond pissed off. He always interrupted me. Because "I don't know when you're going to stop talking." My mum does that, too. Both my brother and I have a habit of beginning sentences with: "Two things..." or "I have two things to say..." like we're pre-empting being interrupted.

I had a really weird memory come back today and was in two minds about posting it as it's a bit odd. It's humiliating even writing about it, but here goes. He used to come in and wipe my bum at an age when I didn't need him to. I remember being hugely ashamed and embarrassed. Eventually I told him I didn't need any help and it was, oh, right, fine, no problem.

So I really really don't think he did anything sexually abusive. But this is why I have an issue: I knew I could manage fine, I knew I was embarrassed and didn't want him to, but it took me ages to say so. How frightening and unapproachable must I have found him not to just say something.

DH is on a bus home so not going to be alone for long. Really don't feel like going out, but maybe it'll help.

Also, thank you. ((hugs))

Oh, and not sure how long since the box opened, it's been sort of dripping open the last few weeks and then just a flood of stuff today.

Jess keep posting, keep offloading, it sounds like you need to talk and talk - and that's fine. Sometimes it's the only thing that helps. Maybe it would help to be out tonight too, to be with people and to feel like your own person, not what your hideous parents see you as, IYSWIM? Hope you got some time to talk to your dh and also went out. Don't apologise for anything, there are some great supportive people on here and you don't have to explain or apologise.

Dear Fresh

Am sorry to all that I have cross posted, you are exactly right. But my "other" discovery is that I can like and love me and then everything falls into place. I have previously always looked on external validation. If you can learn to like yourself, when your parents never were there to teach then you are onto a winner. I did it, so can you. I am a really nice person and so are you. It takes a brave soul to post so well done and happy christmas to everyone.. Love to you all, you have faced up to things that others have brushed under the carpet. I'm off to England tommorrow so will be off line but I want to say what a massive support all of you have have been, BT

Gather together everyone-we can do Xmas. Last post till New Year -come on make the next more positive than mine. Lots and lots of hugs BT.

I also feel like I can't give advice but only offload on you guys. I guess that's part of the process. And talking of grudges - earlier in the year when I told my mother face to face that I can't make myself have a loving close relationship with her now when I didn't get one from her all my life she grabbed my arm & said "You are just BITTER & you have to try harder!!!"
I recoiled from her grasping hands as if she was the old woman with the poisoned apple.
It's not a grudge, we're not bitter. We're just responding to our training! They've changed the agenda not us!!

oh jess - poor little girl you.

That feeling of being unsettled and knowing something is wrong, but not feeling entitled to say "no"... so awful.

The support is really appreciated, thank you.

CreepyLittleBat I talked to DH and told him I've remembered some stuff but feel like I want to talk it over with my therapist before I decide whether to discuss it with him. We went to the pub for a bit but are both really tired and I don't think I was very good company.

I do see what you mean but I wish I COULD be what my parents see me as, actually, because they see me as someone who has had a perfectly acceptable childhood, has no reason to be depressed and is fine - I wish that was the case. My mum honestly believes she did her best and that you can't get it right as a parent. Well, there are degrees of wrong, frankly, and I think she's full of shit.

And here we are, playing happy families and pretending everything is fine, when it's not. Recently my dad asked me how to do something on his mobile phone (which I bought when he was in hospital) and then got annoyed and wouldn't listen and shouted at me to stop talking. I know this isn't in my head as DH says he has witnessed him doing this to me.

I have always had this weird coping mechanism where I imagined having worse problems, I'd invent these alternative lives for myself where much worse things happened. Which sounds mad, I realise. I don't mean I went round lying, I just made up these weird stories in my head so I could comfort myself by thinking at least it wasn't real. Like the opposite of a daydream, so reality seemed okay. I still do it, if I'm honest. And now I'm shining a light on my actual, real childhood, and I don't like what I see, and I can't fall back on the comforting knowledge that it isn't real, because it is. I sound cracked, don't I.

DH and I only got married this year and I'm supposed to be all happy and excited about our first xmas as newlyweds. I feel like I'm spoiling it all because I feel so emotionally worn out. I've got to do some very last-minute shopping tomorrow.

Midwife, you're not bitter. Imagine saying: I know you are, but what am I? She is projecting all her own failings onto you. But hell you have the right to be bitter if you blinking well want to!

Huge hugs to everyone. Thanks again for the support.

hotDAMNlifeisgood I think we just crossed posts.

I think you just summed it up very well. I also remember just not understanding why he was angry a lot of the time. I have this really vivid memory of him saying: "If you don't stop doing that, I'm going to put you over my knee," and not knowing what I was doing wrong, or why it was pissing him off, but not feeling like I could ask.

My mum just lives in a permanent ditz. She once sent me on holiday with my grandma to visit relatives abroad without a towel, swimsuit, flip flops or sun cream. I remember telling her I thought I had nits when I was about seven (I did) and she said: "Oh, it's probably just the bubble bath!" and only accepted that I really did have nits when my best friend's mum told her I did. Not because we lived in filth, we had a nice clean middle-class home, she just liked to ignore problems in the hope they'd go away.

Speaking of our house, the airing cupboard was in my room. So I had people coming in there to get clothes etc. I realise this sounds like first-world problems, but it's not so great being a teenager and having your parents feel they have carte blanche to barge into your room.

You want to hear something really frigging hilarious? My parents own books by Alice Miller. It's like some kind of horribly bad joke.

I feel churlish complaining about any of this. I guess it's a running thing with SHers - everyone feels like they can't justify how they feel as everyone else presumably had it worse. I have friends who went through far worse and while I know it's about how it made you feel, I know for a fact that at least one of my friends would happily have had my childhood instead of hers, so I feel like I have no right to complain.

WIth exquisite timing, non-festive card arrived today from middle sis wondering whether I would like to meet up and talk at the end of Jan/early Feb! Great, so just as I was hoping to hibernate over Christmas and shut out the world, now I'll be worrying about that instead. Add that to a couple of other minor things which have cropped up and I'm suddenly feeling very isolated again. And why do we have to wait until then? Fuckity fuck fuck. Have drunk too much and eaten chocolate ( gah) and been crabby to DH. See, most of the time I do pretty well but the fear still gets me sometimes! Sigh. Tomorrow is another day, I'll pick myself up and look the world in the eye again. Strength to all of you, keep posting and be kind to yourselves. Better sleep now before I get too rambly...

Sorry to hear that fresh. I'm sure your DH will understand - it's okay to be crabby sometimes, nobody's perfect.

Hope tomorrow is a better day. Hugs to you.