"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

I feel so guilty because im not doing the 'right' thing for them!

This time of year is so difficult for all of us who have abusive parents whether still in contact or not.

I have been feeling a lot more confident/assertive with my parents, but still find this time of year hard.

Anyway, I really only wanted to offer big (((HUGS))) to everyone this Christmas and wish you all well.

An air of Hope in a Manger

FOG is a legacy often left to adults who were children of toxic parents.

You are really under no obligation to see these people at all even though they are family. You would not tolerate such crap from a friend, family are really no different in that regard.

And do not put yourself into an expensive overdraft situation for such ungrateful and undeserving people.

The "right" thing here to do is to protect yourself and your child from such malign influences. You will feel a lot happier for doing so.

Your approach is fine, forgetmenots. You can't convince them. Just give up on the hope that you can, and make sure that you think you are saying/doing the right things.

How they react to it is up to them.

Oh Ffs.
My dad has been having some worrying symptoms and last week my mum finally for him to the gp.
My dad is 66 and has smoked since he was 14.
He is now having trouble swallowing food and with acid reflux.
He got an appt Today for an endoscopy for next Friday so the gp is obv worried as am I.
Mum asked me to take him.
I said yes, missing out on seeing sme family from Dhs side on that day.
He is now saying he isn't going!
I am torn between saying fine dint go you silly old sod, and worry that it's something serious :(
Wwyd?

Thanks HotDAMN. Need reminding and confirming sometimes! You are of course spot on.

Tricky Badvoc, very tricky and it's a horrid situation to feel you're parenting them, by making them go. Not to mention everything else you're struggling with.
My first instinct was to re-book it for a better time but then I thought, no the sooner the better. But how do you make a grown man go?

Tangerine - thanks for your reply. It feels like constant mind games. Hopefully I will be able to accept things in the future.

Jess- thanks its so annoying it's like being on edge. Waiting for the next drama.

Like some of you have said what I thought was normal isn't. What I thought a family was like I thought they all were. Yes in some ways like other families but I'm sure it's not so dramatical that their is a problem every week. That isn't really a problem 'created' and made into something big and all have to feel sorry for her.

I feel nervous about her Christmas present because I worry it will not be right. That she will complain in someway. Over the years my mum has learnt not to say it out loud if she doesn't approve of the gift , amount I spend, wether its wrapped or not and there's other examples. She used to come out and say things but after arguments etc she has stopped but Now I think she wants to say things but holds back but might come out with something at a later date.

She's already moaned about what I'm Buying/ spending on her boyfriend who I dont see often and don't really get along with, he burys his head in the sand. Also she wants to make sure I m spending the same on her boyfriend as she does on my husband. I think how petty. Shes made it clear over the years that she's doesn't like him, wishes she was with my dad who she cheated on, blamed it all on my dad why they split up. He never made effort etc with her so that then gives her the okay to cheat on him and obviously she is free from any responsibility or blame. She never says sorry or admits anything is her, it's all the other persons fault.

She used to say to me things like ' now never talk badly of your mum to other people as they will think badly of you, it doesn't look good saying things about your mum' I believed her .
And like some of you have said its hard for others to understand who have never lived this so I don't discuss it much and the reasons I don't see her often..

Oh and my mum has found a tumour in her breast twice and and said she has a funny episode and might have Alzheimer's. She often comes out with these things when I'm not speaking to her. That's the thing we go through phases where I don't see her or speak to her. I keep my distance. I've only resumed seeing her a few weeks ago but before that I didn't see her since July. But the one thing is she keeps In touch through the mobile. Which can get nasty sometimes if I'm not speaking to her.

I can identify the 'everybody thinks she's wonderful' mum says this is what her work colleagues tell her all the time. How well she handles every situation is fantastic,
Also she's had quite a number of jobs and every time she always says things like hundreds applied and she was the one that got picked. Every job there has been at least 60 or more and she is chosen. I'm not being funny but how do you know on every job how many people applied? Then she expects loads of praise for getting the job and tells me and sister things people have done for her at work to celebrate . Hinting that we should do this too. But she expects this from us but then never congratulates us on things. If she does say well done theres always a dig. She often says things like oh how have you done that is it through your husband. So taking my achievements away from me and saying my husband must have done it.

When my older sister was due to go into surgery to have her first child my mum was texting nasty messages to her / ringing and causing an argument because she chose not to have her at the birth and she chose this because mum would make her more stressed and worried than she already was. I mean who does that when your daughter is just about to give birth?

And when she cheated on my dad she also used the well I had you kids too young, if she had been able to have more of a life etc and gone dancing etc then she probably wouldn't have cheated. She has said in past we weren't planned and mistakes but then tries to say nice things after such as we were wanted but why even mention we wernt planned etc.

She never sees her own brother, she only has him in the family leftover her side . Now again you guessed it, it's his fault why she doesn't see him. When pressed further it's because he's secretive, private person or blames it on something I did when I was a child why she doesn't see him. He didn't invite her to sons wedding because he was worried they would argue . so they have very limited contact " she says things like I don't want to push him too much"
I remember as kids he was always coming to the house to talk to my mum or dad because they involved him in there problems or I believe now more made up problems or exaggerated for attention. This was more mum but when dad rang him it was usually to talk to my mum as my dad couldn't get through to her Apparantley.

Did any of you get hit with the slipper? I did really hard and it bloody hurt.

Yes and I always got the " your too sensitive"
" you take things too seriously" " you don't understand things"

Anyway it really has got me thinking. I feel I don't focus on my own family with all this going on all the time.. All these dramas and constant issues that are wildly exaggerated or made up. I always try to give her the benefit of the doubt about making things up or calculating what she's up too. I don't like to think that she's doing this or I then over think things.

Tangerine- thanks for your post, it's also reassuring I am not alone. I really struggle emotionally with this. What is your dad like do you get along with him? I do t get along with my dad really either. He is a bit better In the sense I get some respite as he just falls out with me then expects me to call him which I always did. Even when generally he throws abuse at me . You know I was always to blame never him. Then lately I have got tired and sick of him acting like a child. Haven't spoken or seen him in 4 months. It's so hard. I have two similar parent the only good thing about dad is that he leaves me alone a bit but the I'm still left feeling hurt, where as mum if you call her up on things or stand upto her she will text, ring talk to my friends, try to get other peopl in the family to tell me off and saying I'm being horrible to her and that she's devastated etc. until I back down and speak to her.

Yes I know that one playing siblings / gran kids off against each other. This has happened all my life with my sisters. I have two one older and a much younger one than me who still lives with her. That's the other thing me and younger one were so close and it's hard standing upto her as she uses young sister to get to me. She knows I would do anything for her.

But with me and older one it's always been hard work, it's a bit better lately but mum has set it up like you described. Telling older one how great I am etc then to me telling me how great she is and the things she doing. It's usually things that pick on your weak spots. Areas where she knows your not doing so well in . Then she tells you other is doing wonderfully in it and vice versa. So I think that can create bitterness and my older one has always acted badly towards me. However to be fair she has been the scapegoat all the time so I kind of get why she is more bitter.

She does it with younger one too a bit, Younger one is doing a math re sit at college gcse . shes really struggling at it. So what does she go and do, compare me to her. I passed maths first time you see when I was at school. My sister has failed the resist a few times now. Then she says " oh bedtime was really good at math" she's brilliant at it" right in front of her, I was there when she said it and u felt so sorry, it was very insensitive so I said " oh know I wasn't very good at maths at all... She then said " oh you were bedtime, you were fantastic" I said no I wasn't and it must have knocked her confidence even more with what mum said as sister then said I'm rubbish at maths I can't do it at all. I said to her " you are good at maths, I said you can do it, tried to reassure her etc.

To be fair the truth is I wasn't that good at maths, yes passed it but wasn't brilliant at it. So it was way overinflated designed to try and create bitterness . In other words bedtimes wonderful sisters not so then sister might resent me a bit over time with all these comparisons and talking to her about how wonderful I am especially when it's a touchy subject for her with maths as she's struggling. Something your struggling at you don't want it rubbed in your nose that your other sisters doing " wonderfully in it".

Oh and I just remembered the bit you said about your mother thinking she can behave how she wants because your her daughter. Well my mum is always saying "well I'm your mum" in other words so I can do as I please. I've tried in the past to say if your my mum you should treat me better then than anyone not worse.

And I always get the I won't be here much longer, life's so short. How will you feel when I'm dead and buried. How can you treat your mum badly and not see me. I've had the you'll regret this when I'm not alive anymore , I regretted it when my mum died. Thing is there she knows that is such a raw point to discuss my gran as I went to pieces when she died. I loved my gran, still raw, she was more like a mum to me. And the thing is my gran died of cancer and when diagnosed she was told she has only 3 months to live and only lived a month. It was very sad which makes it even worse that she can use cancer to throw about whenever she feels like it to get her own way. I suffer quite badly with anxiety etc and she knows this but doesn't really offer support. Tbh she makes it worse.

I am so tired trying to deal with eevryday life in Chez Biddy, that I have given very little energy to worrying about my parents and siblings recently. But I have a feeling it will all kick off soon.

We had decided a while back not to travel for Christmas itself (must organise accomodation earlier next year) as a self-supporting mechanism. I'd like to be there for Christmas, but I know that we need a retreat from both houses (other visits are generally fine).

PIL are now coming to our city for 2 nights in a local hotel after Christmas (my parents don't know this yet) and we will then go straight to my parents at their holiday house (where they go for NY) for 2 nights, but leaving on NYE (we usually stay NYE and there's a big family dinner). Back to ours for the night, and the au pair is back too (going out with friends) and then down to PIL on NY day where they will mind DD while DH and I go for 2 nights away on our own. Stay in theirs again when we get back (very late flt) and then head back to our own house on the Sat before school is back again. We will probably see my family again on the Sat too before we leave (they live v close to PIL).

I am now starting to dread telling my mother about the arrangements for the break (well, the parts they need to know anyway) and the criticism I will get for not spending it all with family. And not making more of an effort to see my siblings.

But I will see them all (or at least, all who are home) as my aunt invited us to lunch this Sunday where Dad is bringing my 2 bro's to see Granma, and it seems like Mum and 1 DSis may decide to accompany them. Once they hear we will be there, I have every expectation of seeing them!! But my other DSis will probably not be told about this event (haha, I have to ring her later today so will mention in passing so she is not left in the dark - I think she has other things to do, but at least she'll know).

And I am also waiting to see what Mum has bought my DBro's fiance, as I have a suspicion that she has bought something very special that I had already said I was putting together as their wedding present next year.

Funnily, I have been in touch more with all the siblings bar the one living at home, this year. All have complained about mum and the SAHSib (she works, but now lives at home again and thinks she rules the roost even though she is FAR from the eldest and always gives out about not keeping in touch when she is the world's worst at that). Poor Dad is an enabler, but he is getting a bad deal at the mo. Mum is a narc, but I have given up trying to even compete for some attention as there is too much going on with me - and if her diary is soooo full, then she'll have to excuse me for not trying to get DD to stay with her as she obviously doesn't have the time.

(She offered to have DD for an overnight at Halloween, 2 days before, when DD needs to have things laid out in advance as changes in routine (ASD) and Mum knows that - but she is getting the hump because DD stays with PIL on occasion but only rarely with her. Apart from her nastiness, the main reason is actually that she is always so busy and we need to have things planned in advance. Which she knows..but ignores).

Sorry, that was a lot longer than I had intended...

financialwizard ((hugs)) to you too and everyone else.

AnAirOfHopeInAManger have you heard of "insecure bonding"? It's one way of explaining FOG and other feelings of fear, loyalty or obligation towards toxic parents. Because you become attached to your parents in an insecure way if you grow up in a neglectful or frightening environment, which explains why you still feel loyalty/guilt/fear as an adult and don't feel confident. Psychobabble perhaps, but rang true for me.

Sorry I was a bit brief yesterday, worried my posts seemed abrupt.

badvocsanta I don't know what to suggest but it sucks when you feel you have to parent your parents.

Bedtime don't know about you but I find it really frustrating if you ever say to people that your family wasn't normal and they say something dismissive like "oh, all families are weird" or "there's no such thing as normal". Because that's rubbish. There's a line.

Don't remember any slippers but weirdly a friend from primary school once announced in the playground that I was hit with one. Was and am 99.9% sure he made it up (he used to tell a lot of fibs and I have zero memory of it) but I think he picked up on the atmosphere in my house or something.

I was hit pretty rarely when I was little, but found my dad terrifying. He was very quick to shout and couldn't differentiate between genuine misbehaviour and childish silliness, e.g. he once got enraged when I kept talking to my friend in Pig Latin as he was convinced we were making fun of him. He often got angry with me for things that weren't my fault, or that he did himself - or for calling him a hypocrite, big mistake, always wanted to say that because it was true but learned not to. That's what I found most frustrating as a little kid, that he wasn't being fair, and I wasn't allowed to say anything about it. Long car journeys were hell because he always pushed his seat right back and then told me off for "kicking" him. Not sure why all this is coming out now, here, all of a sudden - started typing and suddenly it's all coming out. Not sure if I should just delete it, sorry.

Things got more physical more often when I was in a secondary school. I was becoming more opinionated and defiant, he lost his job and became (more?) depressed, which affected how he reacted to me, and how he handled it when we clashed. There's a thread in Parenting (this one: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/1639828-Coping-with-wildly-differing-parenting-styles) which has actually really really upset me - it came up when I clicked on Active Threads and I was curious, then found myself reading something that could have been talking about me and my dad when I was 11 and it only went downhill from there. I actually used to antagonise him quite a lot because I was angry and hated him and didn't want to bloody respect him.

He is much better than he used to be but still find it stressful to be around him for long. Some of my parents' friends are guilt-tripping me a bit for not going over to help more, even though we are helping quite a lot, and frankly I bet he doesn't tell them off for making his tea wrong or demand crackers with butter (which has to be taken out of the fridge to soften up) and then immediately complain that they're not producing them quickly enough.

Sorry, I really have written quite a ramble, far longer than intended.

BiddyPop I think it's important to see their issues as just that - theirs. Easier said than done though I realise.

As Christmas is coming and I have been no contact for nearly a year, and spending my first ever Christmas with friends rather than family, I have been musing about my relationship with my dysfunctional family.

I have essentially gone no contact with them because of a very traumatic realisation: that I was in a 12-year abusive relationship, because I thought my ex's behaviour was normal, and because I believed deep down that I didn't deserve better.

These are my issues.

I thought my ex's behaviour was normal, because it mirrored my parents' relationship. And I thought I didn't deserve better, because I was used to being treated with neglect and contempt by my parents my whole life.

This is their problematic behaviour.

So I am NC with them because of my resentment for past behaviour, and also my discomfort at seeing an abusive relationship in action, having escaped from DV myself. And of course, my newfound unwillingness to be around people who treat me with neglect and contempt.

I am not too proud of being NC with people out of resentment for the past. The reasons anchored in the present seem more valid. Yet I know that my resentment for the past is really the biggest reason.

I think I am in the process of letting it go. So what will be left is discomfort at how they treat each other, and unwillingness to be treated badly. I think I can stand up for myself if they treat me badly. However, I wonder: is the way they treat each other any of my business? Can I justify remaining NC with them because I don't like their form of interaction? It's hard for me to watch them, and NOT boil with rage at what they taught me about couple relationships. I think I am angry on my behalf when I see my mother bully my dad, for the child who was taught such damaging lessons, more than I am angry on my father's behalf.

So again, it seems that the crux is letting go of my resentment. When I see them bicker in the present, my discomfort has everything to do with the memories it brings of my own abusive marriage, and my anger that these are the people who modelled an abusive relationship that I then repeated.

So if I am to be able to truly let go (and, by extension, have some kind of contact with them again), I have to truly accept that the past is past, and that when I see them abuse each other in the present, that still can change nothing to the past.

Im reading i dont know what to say.

I go for months not thinking about it all and having superfical contact with my mum only then its all comes back. Im not angry with them im just sorry for myself.

I look at my actions and try harder to be a better mum to my children.

They do not want to see what type of person they are and if they did they could never change.

I feel sorry for the 7 yo girl that could not trust adults that was hurt and alone and wanted to run away and never contact them again.

Im in no position to offer advice to others as i havent sorted it all out myself

HotDAMN, some (I hope) good advice in exchange for the good advice you gave me.

If seeing them is going to perpetuate some of the harm that was done in the past - then your reasons are rooted in the present and aren't about resentment, but self-protection. Grudges are only grudges if they are based on past actions which you don't believe would be repeated. Even then they can be completely justified.

All I want to tell you is don't make dropping NC a condition of you moving on. It isn't. But the rest of your plan sounds well thought out and clear, I wish you luck.

You don't need to feel bad about whether or not you offer advice on this thread, Hope !

There are no obligations here (unlike in our families of origin...)

Ues the thread whichever way is good for you.

That's very wise, forgetmenots

I like this bit: "Grudges are only grudges if they are based on past actions which you don't believe would be repeated."
...and since we know that narcs are unwilling to change...

I suppose I feel in my gut that once I've truly moved on, NC won't be necessary any more: they will no longer be able to affect me, and I will be able to protect myself if the need arises.

Christmas makes it all worse. It highlights the abnormal.

I get envy with families that hug and like each other and are happy. Im making my own but im upset i didnt have that as a child.