"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

I know what you mean re keeping conversations light...I haven't had a real discussion with my mum about anything important to me for...well...ever :(
I tend to stick to asking after cousins, my siblings (they sure as hell never ask after me!) and general things like weather, mums neighbours, local people we know etc...
All a bit sad really.

Wow, I never even realised that I do that too. I never tell my dad anything. If I have any news I tell my mum & leave it to her to tell him. Part of the reason I didn't have a boyfriend before 19 was because I didn't want to give him any ammunition for teasing me. I told my mum when I first got together with DH. When we got engaged my dad said he didn't look at it as losing a daughter, he saw it as getting rid of me... Hahahaha... Mum made me call him at work when I failed uni & decided not to repeat the year & I sat there holding the phone for ages before I finally got the courage to dial the number. I dreaded his speech at our wedding, didn't tell him about either pregnancy... In fact, I can't remember the last time I stayed alone in a room with him - I usually get up & leave to avoid one-on-one conversations with him. I'm sad to realise I do these things automatically just to avoid my own father. That's not how life should be.

Long time lurking on this thread maybe 2 years. Finally think its time to post. Really think my Mother is a narc.

The most recent event was the day my toddler son got diagnosed with a lifelong disability I called to tell her , she soon turned the conversation around to complete strangers stopping her on a night out telling her how amazing she looked amongst other crazy things all centred around her.

We moved on from her to me asking about Christmas and she stated she couldn't be bothered to sort the house for the kids . I have a toddler and baby so it's just a question of making it safe eg no glass vases tidy ornaments away etc. I invited her to my in laws or suggested a meal out, she refused both. She seems determined to spend Christmas alone , we are travelling 200 miles to see family but she only wants to meet at a retail centre to exchange gifts and have a quick lunch .

I'm her only child and she is single to understand the situation . I have started to examine her treatment of me and my children . I now believe she turned nasty at the thought of a family Christmas as she isn't the focus due to be being devastated by my sons diagnosis . I also told her we are moving much closer to her but she has barely reacted to this and doesn't ask about my son or my imminent move.

She has avoided Christmas generally since I moved away and got married with children. I think if i visited her alone she would prefer that but we come as a package and in her words " she can't be bothered "

I'm not sure when we will visit her in her own home but how many people would you continue being even distant friends with that say they can't be bothered to have you visit ! It was so rude . I have read all the narc stuff and a lot rings true.

Not sure where I go from here but the clouds seem to be lifting and I can see things much more clearly re our relationship.

Dear Tangerine. No, not exactly having children, but putting myself and my family first and being assertive. Standing up to them. That was the dealbreaker and made them really agressive.

The test is if you think they could say "I'm sorry, let's not go over old ground and score points, let's move in a positive direction for your ds". But they are incapable of that. So you need to manage them rather than look for support from them. It is exhausting at first (2 years for me) but it gets easier when they realise you really mean business.

Baytree and tangerine I had the thread bookmarked and had not updated. It seems I'm in the same situation. It seems me having kids is a deal breaker for my Mum. She herself seems to limit contact, and likes to create a distance in our relationship which makes me feel uneasy and guilty after our meet ups. I offer plenty of options but she seems to relish being alone for some reason.

Jo Jo - your post reminded me of "jokes" my Dad has made at my expense. Eg - 8 months after my 4th baby & I was back to pre-preg weight & looking great - in front of the DCs, ILs, DH & everyone he said "bloody hell midwife you look like you've got another baby in there - ha ha ha ha!" He weighs 22 stone.
At my first wedding reception (in their pub of course between lunchtime & evening opening - they opened the pub at 530pm as usual so a load of strangers piled in) he piped up "For God's sake have some time on your own before you have kids & ruin your lives".

The kids thing as a deal breaker? I never saw them when my DSs were little (they still had a pub) so I resent the way they seem to feel some sort of right to see my young DDs now as if I'm depriving them. Why are the DDs more important than the DSs were? They're not - it's that THEY are more important & now they're old & frail & not busy they want attention.

Dear Iman

I am very sorry to hear about your DS. Your support will so help him. Your mother -it is all about her isn't it?
Dear Midwife: Always the inappropriate "joke" hey? And a convenient and cheap wedding reception. It is not what you deserved-shame on them but absolutely no shame on you.

God these peverse, insecure people that get a boost from putting down those closest to them (by genetics not empathy) and trying to make them even more insecure than they are and therefore dependent. In a workplace or school it would be termed bullying and harrassment.

Hi I'm new to the thread. Previously belonged to MN under another name. Lately have been thinking about things constantly and have just started seeing a therapist.

In short: depressed aggressive father, mum whose coping mechanism was/is to ignore all problems. Things worst in my teens when older DB had gone to uni.

I was (am?) very scared of my dad. We walked on eggshells constantly. He didn't hit my mum, to my knowledge, though he was sometimes very unpleasant to her. He did sometimes hit me. Alot of it was verbal aggression and I know it could have been so much worse, don't get me wrong. But put it this way: I once got caught shoplifting, asked my mum not to tell him (without saying why) and she immediately agreed (without asking why or questioning the whole situation in our household).

Several of my friends told me they didn't like phoning my house in case he answered. (Didn't mind them saying this. In fact it provided some much needed validation for how I felt.) One of my uni friends once accidentally rang my parents' house late at night when she meant to call my mobile and from what I gathered she received a massive bollocking from my dad, who had never even met her! Which was awkward.

Couldn't actually TALK to my mum when living at home as she'd say "well don't feel like that" or "just let it wash over you." If I try to talk to her now she says it was a hard time for her and then says she is getting over a cold or the flu - maybe sound paranoid but have tried to discuss 3-4 times and I swear she always starts talking about an ailment! Hey presto the convo is never about me.

My dad is better than he used to be. Though has a habit of suddenly deciding a conversation is over and shouting at me if I try to continue, even if answering a question he asked. We have no DCs yet (are TTC). He is ok with my brother's kids, if somewhat impatient.

Currently v frustrated as my dad was in hospital and now needs lots of help - and friends of my parents are guilt-tripping me and DH for not being around more when have actually been helping out plenty. DB is 200 miles away and we are 20 mins away so people are guilting me and not him.

I also wondered if I'm the only person who still can't tell their parents things that would make them mad. I'm 31 and my dad still doesn't know I smoke. Somehow never passed the point of being scared to tell him. (He hates smokers. Because he's so morally superior?)

So those are the basics, sorry this is so long. Really glad I found this thread.

Christmas has a way of making me think more About family. It's sad I am still trying to accept that my mum and dad are never going to be the way some parents are. I imagine loving parents to be supportive of their children, kind and helpful etc.
My mum and dad are both very Good at criticising. They are divorced. I'd say dad was weaker and more enabling.

No matter what I do I can't win and am never good enough.

Tbh I dwell a lot on these things it's so hard to get over and accept things. I have resentment and anger and that's hard to deal with.

Midwife your dad sounds really mean. How can a dad be this way with his kids? Thats the point I will never understand and trying to make peace with that is nt easy at all. Up and down days all the time ?

Has anybody here come to terms with their families behaviour? It hurts badly. One day it will feel better and another day I feel sad. Some days I feel angry some days Im more resentful, some days I feel okay and like I have accepted things. It's like a rollercoaster. Does anybody else feel like this? When does that rollercoaster finally stop? Or will it always be this way?

Thanks everyone

I agree - illness overrides everything to avoid confrontation & responsibility. My mother has been "dying" since she was 49 of various illnesses. She's now 72!!
The trouble is we are now being cast as heartless, cruel, neglectful offspring. I know my parents' neighbours think it's appalling that I don't go round & help them when their own kids do. One particular neighbour phoned me at my parents' requests 6 years ago when I was on holiday in Turkey with my children & cousin & her kids to tell me both my parents were in hospital dying. When we got back my father had been discharged home & my mother was sitting up in bed complaining about the coffee in a stern voice to the housekeeper & then saying in a baby voice to the nurse "I've got a sore bottin" (because the word bottom is too rude)!!!!
Are we now meant to feel sorry for them?!!'

(But - when I had babies I was warned not to phone them in the middle of the night to tell them & wake them up)

Jess my Dad was/ can be an angry man. The whole family walks on egg shells and you always only tell Mum things. She enables his behaviour and everyone panders to it. I'm so fed up of it being normalised.

All my friends growing up were scared of him and didn't like phoning my house.

I definitely got the brunt of his anger growing up and it still affects me now.

You're in a good place, people here understand, in a way others can't. Keep talking x

Jess - maybe it's too soon to be able to confront your Dad? I'm 45 & only now doing it!! Walking on eggshells seems less difficult but over the years your feelings become less & less valid. I'm not in a good place to advise right now but I sympathise.

Iman your mother is a narcissist! I'm so sorry about your son's diagnosis. The fact is she can't stand the spotlight being taken off her!

Midwife...your mother sounds mad as a box of frogs!!
I can relate...you would not believe some of the stuff my mum has said to me over the years...
I was being tested a few years ago for a very serious illness - against my better judgement I told my mum what the doc was testing for. I was absolutely petrified. I was 22 years old. and her exact words were...
"We'll if it is that, I will be dead before you will"
Right.
:(

You gotta laugh!!

God isn't it amazing to hear that others have similar experiences . My Mother did have an illness diagnosed a few years ago but completely recovered but did have to have a few ops. I let her live with me and looked after her while she recovered. Two years later we got a fabulous offer for my husband to move in his job. She told me her friends couldn't believe I was leaving her(!) after she had her illness. She was back at work full time etc , she wasn't "ill " anymore. Also while 7 months pregnant I looked after her and left my husband 200 miles away .

To this day she will say she is so unwell with other issues but drives an 80 mile round trip to work and socializes with friends who are 100 miles away. Basically she is well when it suits her.

She spoiled my hen night -

We get to bar , not everyone there yet , we were eating upstairs I wanted to have a drink wait for everyone then move upstairs to the restaurant . She insisted we go up as HER feet hurt and she couldn't possibly stand for ten minutes. So I had to hurry everyone up and not wait for my other friends . She then said we had to go to a bar she liked , she then danced for hours and then drove an hour home. Funny how her feet recovered . I got married abroad ( no guests thank God )!

It's not a major example but I can't believe how I have let her manipulate me over the years. My son is the most amazing little boy , if he isn't good enough because of his disability then that's fine but I don't know how long I will be able to maintain a relationship with her if we aren't welcome to visit her due to my children making a mess or whatever her reason is . While there I am always careful that nothing gets broken etc anyway , more so than anywhere else!