"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

New patches....yep. Sounds familiar :(
Mum is coming home today but my ds2 is very poorly now - well, he has been for 2 months with an awful cough/virus thing - and so I have a great excuse not to visit her.
Need some sleep tonight or I will be ill :(

Just to say that I have no wise words or anything, but that I'm horrified at what these dreadful people do to us, and our kids, cos they can.

I think if we stop 'giving a shit' about these people, it'll serve us well, not to get better treatment, but to distance ourselves, detach and heal.

newpatchesforold,

re your comment:-
"I read further back that it is always the siblings who don't give a crap/behave badly etc that are treated the best"

This is very true; my middle aged narcissist of a BIL is enabled to the nth degree by both his parents, particularly his mother who ferries him around still. He despises the two of them as well as himself. His parents also created this monster.

It is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist; all you can do is maintain and keep emotional and physical distance from them. They are very adept at saying anything.

From www.halycon.com:-
"Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.

It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you".

I have seen all of the above in my DHs family.

So, yes, it's possible to get along with narcissists, but it's probably not worth bothering with. Mr Meerkat and I no longer bother with the two, possibly three, narcs in the family and we are a lot happier for doing this. We have to protect our own selves.

BTW if you have never read "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" website you may find it very useful to look at.

newpatches, no, he isn't in contact at the moment. It's been very hard on him and still is, and on me too to a much lesser extent but in a different way - my family is pretty functional and like each other, so this was all a horrible wake up call to me. Think I was blissfully naive before I met DH - always got on with friends and boyfriends' parents, never knew people were like this.

What you were saying about the badly behaved siblings is interesting too. None of DH's siblings behave badly because they are all too terrified of the consequences. But MIL set very, almost unachievable standards for them - academically, about jobs, buying homes etc. She liked the bragging rights. Of course though, it turned out that when it came to the crunch she didn't actually want any of them reaching these targets. And poor DH was the only one who had - he had spent most of his formative years working to finally (as he thought) win her approval. When the goalposts inevitably changed, and she told him 'all I feel when I look at you is sadness and disappointment', to someone who was a lovely person and had accomplished a great deal, he was devastated.

The siblings in law of course mess up all the time, take their punishment like naughty school kids, mummy bails them out but importantly she gets to maintain control. And that after all is what she really wanted all along...

Rant over, honest :)

attila, can I ask you something (if it's too personal please ignore)? Did your DH start off under the FOG, or had he resolved his issues before you met? You give such clear advice and I wasn't sure if you had perhaps had experience of counselling, or perhaps having helped your DH a lot. (I find I am understanding more and more as time goes on, but it has been slow and difficult in parts).

Sorry, just returning to say thank you to Attilla forgetmenots and Baubles for the advice - I haven't replied to the text (that was good advice) but have had a thoroughly miserable weekend on tenterhooks as I now think they will descend on my house like the plague of locusts they are. They won't get in, but now I am worrying that I haven't given them fair warning of this. Geez. I know, I know....

I have no wise words either. Just sad to hear all these stories with no understanding of what they have done let alone remorse! My parents have yet to even acknowledge that I told them I was raped as a result of their negligence. I can't imagine having no reaction to hearing that even the most distant acquaintance had that happen to them!!

Midwife...my mother 'forgot' that dd2 was sexually abused by her own father...she was going on about how terrible it is for men to do this and that to kids, and I sat there in stunned silence...then when I said to her that I found the conversation difficult she asked me why!!! I told her exactly why and she said 'oh...I forgot about that'! He went on trial for it, I was in a refuge...but she forgot??? WTF? It is beyond belief.

All of these things ring such bells now I think about them - I cycled 4 miles to deliver flowers to my exmother when I was a lot younger, and she chucked them back at me as they were bought from a person she couldnt stand!?!?! So I cycled 4 miles back again with the flowers .

The gifts Patches were given as xmas presents to her one xmas and then rewrapped the next year and given as xmas presents to the original giver! I remember spending quite a lot of my holiday spending money when I was very young on a gift for her, some years later she gave it back to me!?!? plus other stuff... how confusing?!

Keep up the feisty fmnots

oh dear, my posting was relating to the previous page here, and this current page with such sufferings on loaded up afterwards.

yeah, it was only a theory (about the reason siblings that behave truly badly are preferred somehow [crazy] [sick] ) although the particular sibling I was referring to was always forgiven (but I've noticed so far its been the male variety), but he actually felt like the 'family-let-down'.

well done creepy that sounds assertive, positive step!

and the appallingness of this awful stuff not actually even really touching the lives of these 2D people, words fail too midwife.

Fi

Newpatches - staggering lack of sensitivity!!'

I've also had the "petulant child" response to presents - "not more earrings!" Etc

They "forgot" my birthday 3 years ago. I had a baby in July 2009 & my mum went into hospital to have a planned operation the day after & was in for 3 weeks afterwards. The night after her operation my father sent me a text in the middle of the night saying she would be dead by morning. (I had just given birth!) I rang the hospital & they said she was doing well & comfortable. I didn't get any cards or presents for me or the baby but instead demands for me to visit her 40 miles away in an NHS coronary care ward & take the baby "to cheer her up". I said no that I wouldn't take a newborn baby into a hospital ward full of sick people & I got a series of furious texts calling me selfish. In the end I spoke to a nurse on the ward who confirmed that they would not ALLOW a newborn baby onto the ward & she had to sit my parents down & tell them once & for all to stop telling me to visit. My mother is a known MRSA carrier. Fatal to newborn babies.
The list goes on .......
I was wavering to see them at Christmas but I know I can't.

Jus that one text says to me what a horror of a man he is midwife. Who does this, well he does obviously! unthinkable. Presumably this was so that you would come running in with baby in the middle of the night, or phone him to give him some support?? A way to force you to action. well now you know him as a liar as well as everything else. Ifyou will enjoy xmas with them, otherwise the waver must be ignored for your own protection. I hope you can plan a lovely day just for you two. Fi

He is a horror of a man. He didn't go to his own mother's funeral. He left me to arrange it on my own because he had a row with his sister over the inheritance. She lives 400 miles away so couldn't do it. He gave the funeral director my number & washed his hands of the whole matter. I got a phone call from them saying they had a body & didn't know what to do with it. She had given him a huge amount of money to buy a pub in return for her living with them for some company. It lasted 12 months before she put herself in a home because they ignored her as they had me when I was still at home.
My other 96 year old grandmother had a heart attack & my mother was already in hospital herself (again) so he rang me in the middle of the night & I went & sat with her all night until she died. They didn't go to her funeral either.
I split with my exh & lived 200 miles away. They begged me to move back here "so they could help me with the children" because I work shifts. "Please, we have nothing to do all day except watch TV". Within months after I'd bought a house here & got a new job etc they decided they just wanted to be on their own because they love each other & their "babysitting days were over" & left me in the lurch.

I'm sorry - more & more realisations keep surfacing & I'm ranting at you guys!

That's a good thing midwife, just keep talking. I'm aghast at your story and newpatches' about forgetting/ignoring abuse. In my book this behaviour is a continuation of the abuse and should be treated as such. Disgusting. Definitely would echo what others have said and get a lovely Christmas planned free from your parents.

Thanks fi, I think it's good for me to have a feisty vent here as I'm careful not to put any pressure on DH. Goodness knows he doesn't need it. Your mother sounds like a classic narc, how awful.

creepylittlebat glad you found it helpful. The tenterhooks are unavoidable, I'm feeling the same way to be honest - just keep telling yourself they can only come in if you open the door, they can only shout if you answer the phone...

I think we should all batten down the hatches & have a Christmas with our DPs & DCs only!! I know I am!!

Indeed Midwife.

I will be spending Christmas abroad this year with DH and DS .

MIL has been at it again with regards to wanting to buy Mr M and I each a Christmas present (I should have made her listen to what Martin Lewis spoke about with regards to Christmas presents!) even though DH has stated that she does not need to get us anything. Boundaries are being pushed yet again by her aren't they?. BTW if I do receive something (and DH asked me to choose something yesterday) it will subsequently go to the charity shop.

Will no doubt receive a separate Christmas card from the ILs (MIL solely does all the Christmas card writing) this year as well, well its happened every other year!. Told DH again that I did not like this and that I felt like a second class citizen in her eyes. I already realise this but I don't think he does. He seemed genuinely aghast at my saying so saying that his mother did not mean it and that's the way its always been done in their family. All that however to me sounds like a cop out.

Forgetmenots, have helped DH a lot with regards to his dysfunctional family (I also have my own not quite so dysfunctional parents to draw on as an example so have mainly worked through that) and he has made a lot of progress but he is still very much in obligation and a degree of awe with regards to his mother (not his Dad or brother though). After a lifetime of being so conditioned mainly by her its bloody hard to realise that what you have come to regard as normal is actually and patently not.

Very glad to hear it Midwife - you deserve a wonderful time away from those horrors. Rant away!

tangerine, it's actually a positive thing that you know you can't please them. It took me way too many years and failed careers to come to that realisation, and many people on here will say the same. We need to start pleasing the people that matter now, starting with ourselves. As for coping tips, I spent last Xmas without my parents for the first time, and had a load of abuse for it, but we're doing the same this year and I will not be answering the phone. How I'm getting through this stress? telling myself that it's only a day and that soon it will be over. If we can just make this as good as possible for the dc, that's the main thing. And hopefully hide from them how stressed I feel.

Argghhhh! Remind me to NEVER talk to anyone about my toxic father and why I'm not seeing him this Christmas or why I will never allow my children to spend time with my MIL alone - unless they have toxic family! Not only do they just not get it but she's made me so cross with her patronising and dismissive attitude. She doesn't understand and when I suggested she read Toxic Parents to help her understand people in these situations, she said she doesn't want to and why would she. Her family are so close and that's great but I'm not that lucky. Then she says her family isn't perfect as some have divorced etc. Arggghhh. So cross, when will I learn to not discuss it.

Actually the funny thing is I have never really felt pressure to see them on Christmas Day. They "don't believe in Christmas" "it's all a waste of money" "God doesn't exist anyway" & "Christmas just meant even more hard work for us"!!!
Ok then!!!

I'm aware that this time of year is highly emotional for most people - I have to really drum up any feelings but am determined to make my kids have different memories to mine!!

Yes to that midwife just been thinking that I would travel to avoid xmas given the opportunity - you know just keep changing time zones till it was over everywhere! but with DC do do the whole thing and want it to be so special for DC sake, although yeah loads of hard work and late nights preparing everything, but if DC made to feel special & good as a result then its worth it. Xmas was big when I was a kid, but v. ordered, and gifts were 'plastic' , and then gifts handed over in a plastic bag then it became just money (cheques that I never cashed). The way some people do it, it certainly is a HUGE FUCKING WASTE OF MONEY! meaningful xmas is certainly not and can be a wonderful time, well I've just talked myself back into the xmas spirit, going to clear lounge to get tree up.

Baubles sorry that you're in that place again. I think it might actually be nigh on impossible for people to understand the difference (from the outside, and not as a daughter or son - as we are the chosen special ones to receive this treatment very often) It was always claimed on medical grounds that my father was not 'able' to control his temper due to psychological condition fuckupedness but as I got older I wondered why only his immediate family ever witnessed it on a regular basis! I am sorry, I seem to be getting more and more sweary.

FMNots thank you, I think that might be the first time anyone has said anything so kind to me about her - acknowledging how appalling it was about her specifically (exactly the point that baubles was just making).

Unfortunately, although I feel I have travelled miles in coming away from that and seeing it (they do feel like enormous leaps forward for me - but really they are small steps in getting towards being more normal! ), I still feel isolated, screwed up and very down, struggling with it all.

Fi

I'm sorry to hear that Fi. There's no doubt to me that her behaviour is completely narcissistic and damaging - I think you should be easier on yourself, recognising and accepting the behaviour is wrong is a huge step in itself and every step after that is hard-fought. Keep talking!

attila your DH is lucky indeed to have you - you sound like an incredibly rational and thoughtful person, exactly what he needs in dealing with this dysfunction. Your advice on here is invaluable to many.

Went to visit my parents this morning and she was actually on quite good form. This is the confusing thing. But I also now am wary because it's like I know her dark side. They had returned from a nice holiday so in a good mood, and she seems to like christmas so all good in the Nettle parental household. At least I feel I've fulfilled a visit without mishap so that should do me for a while. It's times like this I feel slightly fraudulent being on here, but I know it's because I know she can turn, and I know what's gone before..........
I think that's what's confusing about someone who has a bit more than a healthy splash of narc... As someone said up thread, so long as you can give them what they want, everything is fine. So I keep the conversation light, maybe a bit of discussion of what's in the news, but nothing too contentious, and steer clear of the flashpoint subjects!
There is a family birthday coming up and I was asked if DP will be there, I said I didn't know (but pretty damn sure he won't) and she said to tell him they would LIKE him to be there. So that's going to be an issue. There will be lots of people there, so it's not as if he will be missed really, apart from the fact that he chooses not to go. He doesn't like eating out in that type of situation, so I don't really see what the problem is, but it won't be seen like this.......