"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

My mum was rushed to hospital last night.
My dad asked me to g on and take him so e food as he hadn't eaten since about 10am.
She looked very poorly.
But I felt strangely unmoved.
She is being kept in so I will have to go and visit this weekend....
I don't want to :( I am a bad person. She is in pain and scared.
She is the most intolerant of others pain and illness of anyone I know.
When I had all my wisdom teeth out when I was 20 I was terrified...never had an op before. She and dad dropped me at the door of the day case unit and left.
:(
She was always sending me into school ill...then got annoyed when she had to come and fetch me.
I wish I didn't feel like this :(

badvoc :(
You are not a bad person. The very fact that you are trying to make sense of these feelings shows that. You could not do what your parents did to you.

You also don't have to do anything. Do what is right for you, although I know that is easier said than done.

princessfionne I find ridiculing some of the behaviour is a good way of minimising it. I hope you didn't think I was being dismissive midwife, hard to put across in text.

You're not a bad person Badvoc. I struggle with the same feelings - my parents have chronic ill health - father chronic chest disease & from 40 years of heavy smoking & crumbling knees because of morbid obesity due to many years of a crap diet & heavy drinking & mother gastric & bowel problems from long term heavy drinking & same shit diet. I feel no sympathy which probably makes me a hard cow but when you never got it given to you, you can't give it back.

Forgetmenots - no I didn't think you were being dismissive at all - it is nonsense!!

More detail from DH about the nasty voicemail from his father - the gist of it was that he was "hell bent on destroying the family"!! I think they did that all by themselves!!

Never ceases to amaze me, the lack of self-awareness these people have, always projecting what they've done back at their victims.

Please could I have a quick bit of advice from people? After a couple of weeks n/c, (after an abusive phone call) mother has sent a text asking if they can come and drop off ds' s birthday presents sometime next week. This is the text I am thinking of sending.

"No, you made it very clear in your last phone call that you have no intention of behaving civilly towards dh and I. If you have a present, you can post it."

Does it sound ok to you? I don't want to enter into any discussion, but neither do I want them turning up on the doorstep and upsetting the dc!

Hello everyone. I've only just discovered this thread. I've seen the title several times & couldn't figure out why going to stately homes made a family dysfunctional! I get it now!

My dad used to tease me. I guess it was bordering on bullying. I was quite small for my age & used to take great delight in telling people that 'all good things come in small packages' until my dad started replying 'but so does poison'. Any opportunity he got he made some 'joke' at my expense. He justified it by saying that I wasn't tough enough & if I couldn't learn to 'take it' from him then I'd never survive in the real world. The result is that I now feel like I can't trust anyone & the world is out to get me! On her death bed, his mum told him not to tease me. He didn't listen.
It's got better now that I'm married & don't see him everyday, or maybe it's just that it's not so relentless so I find it easier to cope. I'm worried though that he'll treat my children the same way. I'm strong enough now that I could (& would) just pack up & leave if he started pushing it with them but my mum's really keen to have them stay for holidays when I wouldn't be there to defend them. My eldest is only 14 months & #2 is due in June so I guess I've got a little while to figure out how to handle it! Who knows, maybe it won't be an issue - he might not see it as his role to toughen them up, or they might just not be phased by it!

Hello everyone. I was going to start a new thread and then saw this one is till going...I posted on it a loooong time ago but haven't since.
The thing is, and it's the first time I have admitted this...I really dislike my mother. It was my 44th birthday this week and she ruined it for me and left me feeling like s**t. I drove 160 mile round trip to pick her up so she could stay for a few days and then come out to dinner with me, the dc and dp - once here she declared she wouldn't come "it's a family thing". When I told her she WAS family she said she hadn't brought anything nice to wear. I told her we were going to an American diner and would be wearing jeans so she didn't need to dress up. She made excuses again. She does this all the time, whatever the occasion...birthdays, Christmas, even my wedding - she will/she won't/she will/she won't...basically she wants people to beg and plead and when they won't she acts all wounded and says that nobody wants her.
On the morning of my birthday I walked DD to school, and when I was nearly there I heard this banshee like screaming from the other side of the road. It was her, yelling at me in full view of everyone that she had called me at least 10 times and how dare I ignore her? I hadn't bloody heard her!!! She came across the road and tore me off a strip for leaving without her (you can see the school from my house so not like I would be gone long) and said I knew she wanted to come and had deliberately left without her. Everybody was staring at me.
I had to take dd1 to physio later that morning, and my mother came with us, but decided she wanted to go home. She ignored me all morning bar yes and no answers, went on a racist rant, then a homophobic one (I am neither racist nor homophobic and abhor bigots)...I didn't even take her back to my house after physio, I dropped her off at the bus stop as I didn't trust myself to speak to her.
She has never accepted my dd2, who is the daughter from my second (and highly abusive marriage), and gave my dd1 a £20 to split between her and DS, and gave nothing to DD2...this is always the same.
She started talking about my exh, the abusive one, and I decided to give her a few home truths about what he had done to me and the kids...all she went on about was the fact that the police turned up at HER house looking for me when I went into a refuge, and that it was 1 o clock in the morning (it was 10.30), and how she had got the blame for them going to exh number 1's house (they never even spoke to him, let alone visited him). It became all about her, again.
Every single time I was on my own with her she spat venom about my sister in law...she hates her and I'm not kidding you, it was constant hate and vitriol - ok my sil is a bit of a cow but my bro chose her and that's that.

Ah, I'm sorry, what a rant, and none of it makes sense I guess, but I just wanted to get it off my chest. I have managed to break the cycle of abusive relationships now but I cannot break this cycle of abuse from her, I regress to being a child when I am with her.
When she left I was totally drained, exhausted and I am only now feeling better, and she left 3 days ago.

jojobells...my mother treats my youngest daughter like that, cruelty in the name of teasing. She calls her ugly and smelly and everything, to the point where my dd cries and then my mother gets annoyed that no one can take a joke! It doesn't stop at the children, it will extend to the grandchildren. I no longer allow it, and will cut her short and tell her to stop. It doesn't always work though.

just a quick one to say to badvoc I think it might be time to give yourself a break and know that you don't 'have' to do anything for fear of what others might label you. I'm sure it mattered a lot what your parents thought, but you know what they think regardless of how you behave you will always be wrong (not literally, but in their eyes you understand!).

Will be easier to just notice that you are feeling like you don't want to go and follow that in order to start protecting yourself and building some boundaries and respectful distances between your soft centre of feelings and their very harsh spears. Being the mother and father to yourself (only the ones that you needed!).

I think you are just use to (like me ) being made to feel about and wrong about your actions its not the same thing as being bad atall.

She still has a hold of guilt/bullying over you if you go when you feel soo strongly against it and lacking any empathy for her.

that should have read 'feeling bad and wrong about your actions...'

take care.. Fi

Creepylittlebat I would ask them to post it, if you're prepared to accept the gift.

I personally wouldn't enter into why you're suggesting that but I am only just learning to put better boundaries in place with my Mother (but I am no contact with Dad due to his abuse earlier this year.) So someone may suggest otherwise.

creepy I can understand why you want to respond. My position (and DH's) has been no replies, to anything. If they call, it's not picked up. If they email, it's deleted. If they turn up, we don't answer the door.

This isn't without its problems - as you saw in my post above! But it does mean the boundary is clear. If they think a present or your DCs is the way through it, then that's what will happen more often.

This obviously though depends on whether you are planning giving them limited access to the DCs so it may not be best for you. I'd be wary of accepting gifts in general as they could be held against you: 'she doesn't even speak to me but she is happy to take my presents and doesn't even let me see the grandchildren open them...' Etc.

Two weeks isn't long for NC and they may be testing the boundary, very difficult. All power to you.

Fi...thank you.
Your posts are very perceptive.
I do pity her.
I do.
But her mistakes and unhappy life are not my fault.
And it took me years to realise that.
She is not well at all and hasn't been for some time. But of course, as a poster upthread pointed out, she does nothing to help herself.
I like to think I still have compassion, not just for her, for anyone in need, but it's hard to reconcile the compassion with the anger and hurt.
At least it is for me.

midwife so glad - I mean, it is dismissive, but of the manipulative crap, not of any impact that might have.

(I actually have an email folder entitled 'bollocks'... As its a gmail account, the pink little box with that cheery word has now been set up to attach itself to any in law incoming mail. There is something pleasing about seeing an email entitled - I joke not - 'What You Have Done Wrong' with a wee box next to it saying 'bollocks'! Highly recommend it, pick any frivolous and slightly silly word of your choosing!)

creepylittlebat,

What forgetmenots stated.

I would actually not respond to your mother's text message, let her stew.

I would also never accept any gifts from such damaged toxic people even though it is for the child.

Cards and gifts to grandchildren are often loaded with spite as well as sentiment and is used as both a way in and a control mechanism to maintain contact. Its never ever just a present.

New patches.
No way my parents old speak like that to my dc.
Not whilst there is breath in my body.
They can say what they like to me - and have! - but my kids?
No fucking way.
And the weird thing is they know it.
It's almost like they understand that the line is drawn there iyswim?

Newpatchesforold,

Why did you feel the need to pick up your mother?. Are you at some level hoping against hope that she will somehow change and become the nice other you want her to be and actually deserve?.

This toxic person is also not above using your children to get back at you as well; she put your DD1 in a very awkward position by giving her the £20. She is alsop abusing your DD2 as well.

Honestly I would go no contact with such a person, if she is narcissist it s not possible to have any sort of relationship with her anyway.

Have a look at the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers - you mother may well fit that particular bill.

Newpatches - I don't have much to add to what Attila has said but tht is very toxic behaviour, the name calling aimed at a child is vile.

I really think you need to consider stopping contact. This is already affecting you and your kids, and she, like all good bullies, is revelling in it I'm afraid.

The site Attila mentioned is excellent, and the books in the opening thread (especially Susan Forward). Good luck.

Yes newpatches I agree - NC is the only way forward for peace of mind.

Well - like a fool I responded to my father's email explaining that I don't blame them for "every problem in my life" but I do blame them for being raped aged 12 & left on my own all the time as a child. Their one night off a week was spent going out without us kids & they left us with staff & went on holiday without us. I pointed out that from 18 I saw them once a year or so until the last 10 years (I am now 45!) when they went bankrupt & became needy. I said they can't change the past but they need to understand that I cannot be a dutiful daughter, doing things for them & pretending we are a close loving family & seeing each other all the time.

His response - we worked 100 hours a week as publicans but no doubt you are unable to understand that!!

midwife that is such a callous, unfeeling response from your father. Your story is so sad. I think they have a damn nerve to expect anything, including basic human courtesy, from you. They have done nothing to deserve it.

It strikes me with people like this that the word 'understand' is used (and abused) a lot. 'You must try to understand us', 'no doubt you are unable to understand', as if they have special exemption or extenuating circumstances that don't apply to the rest of us, and that no one else can possibly understand. It is how they justify their behaviour.

You are entitled to say 'No. I am unable to understand your neglect of your children.' You are entitled to leave them to their self-delusional, special status, and not take any more of this. Big very-un-MN hug for you.

Thank you forgetmenots.

He also said "We will never accept what you have said"

The closing sentence was "We want to see the kids. None of this is their fault"

Whose fault is it then - mine I presume!

They don't get to see your kids unless you want them to mw.
They don't get to order you around anymore.
....and it is drivi them insane
:)

well more fool him the wanker quite frankly midwife - he wanted the money and lifestyle over the need to do right by his children, which quite frankly if you work 100 hrs a week you keep your dick in your pants... What a dick! Does he think that 'entitles' him to abandon you to strangers and risk, yep, obviously does! and of course he chose to do that, you didn't ask him to, and you didn't want him to.

you were raped yeah, but at least we had pots of money spot the flawed logic in that sentence. sorry midwife but my blood is boiling for you for these just pathetic and awful excuses.

What bit did he think there would be to give to any child exactly; just a yearly visit obviously. its gutting Midwife.

Good to hear you talk this way Badvoc, and yes you can still think you are compassionate, but they will just have to seek compassion elsewhere it seems!

Its a weird weird thing that this perception of 'closeness' only works one way. That we are expected to be absolutely there for them, when they have NEVER been there for us. pah! What do they NOT get about this equation and how unbalanced it is. that closeness refers to a concept of duality, it doesn't work in isolation.. doh!

As regards gifts, mmmm.. I'd be very wary of the pitifull cries of 'all the presents we've given and she still refuses to let us see/have contact [with GC]'. Is it possible to have a relationship with the GC/DC of others that you abuse????

Experienced that one too, and had them returned, then they stopped (otherwise its just another way to pretend that issues do not exist to my mind, and oh how good at playing 'normal' which is where the fuckedupness comes from)... at the heart of the 'stately homes' concept IMO.

He has given you a straight answer, actually midwife. He has told you the truth - they will never accept your side of this. If I were you I would take that as a cue for building a new start for yourself, without them. Their attitude is not going to change and that is their loss, and very sad. It isn't however your problem.

I'm obviously feeling feisty tonight, MIL better not pull any crap!