Useless Husband. Or is it me?

[AutumnMadness]

I seriously need help. I am so sick of fighting with my husband about housework. I really do not want a divorce. My complaints: He cannot do nearly anything besides his job and his hobby. We both work full-time, doing the same job, and have a toddler son. We've been together for nearly five years. The problems were less visible when we did not have a child and lived in a small rented house, but really intensified since I gave birth and we bought a house.

We just had another fight, so forgive me for being incoherent as I am very upset. Substance of fight: I am feeling rather shitty today because of a cold. DH gets up with the DS (good). But immediately sticks him in front of the telly (we previously agreed a million times that DS is only allowed about 30 min, max an hour of cartoons in the evenings before dinner, but DH routinely uses telly as a babysitter). Then DH decides to clean the kitchen which is a tip since yesterday as I was not feeling well and went to bed early. DH empties the dishwasher and puts dirty dishes in it. Then he cleans the stove. I come down, praise him profusely, and ask him to wash the floor as it is caked with food. A bit later I come into the kitchen, find the stove and the floor still caked with food after DH "washed" them. There are still dirty dishes sitting here and there and the wooden counters are soaking with water. At this point, I am not annoyed as this is rather routine. I proceed to clean the kitchen while feeding DS lunch. In the afternoon, I ask DH to take DS for a walk as he really needs some exercise and is going crazy in the house. DH proceeds to whine about how rainy it is (it's not) and suggests that we put DS in front of cartoons (see above on telly). Then we dress DS. DH starts zipping his shoes before DS's foot is fully in them. I point this out. DH has a hissy fit about how "wrong" the shoes are. At this point, I've had enough and I explode.

I just hate this endless arguing, especially as DS invariably ends up as a witness. But it seems the DH just cannot do anything right. He cannot complete a cleaning job. He very rarely cooks and is utterly insecure about cooking (still cannot tell when sausages are done despite me showing him a million times). He cannot do DIY (I do it all). I look after the bills, car and house insurance. He has been promising me for years to sign up for driving lessons (I ferry him to his hobby). I deal with things like findings tradesmen to do work on our house and manage their work.

I just don't know what to do. DH has good sides (e.g. looks after DS at least once a week when I go to my hobby in the evening), but this generally child-like helplessness is driving me mad.

It sounds like a good plan, DIY.

I blame his father for being a lazy arse and doing nothing round the house.

Another day of relative peace here.

AlexanderS, thanks for the support. We could afford 200 quid, but it is still a lot, and I agree, it should not be spent on a day of hobby because one has screwed up. I've ordered Wifework. Will encourage DH to read it. I have read extracts, and I think that they reflect our situation.

LemonDrizzled, "very intelligent idiot"!!! This is definitely my DH. He is highly educated and does an intellectually demanding job, but when it comes to housework, his brain turns to mush. And I also cannot figure out whether it is simulated or genuine incompetence. But I am tending towards the believe (as in Wifework), that he has this very deep unconscious notion that housework is not a man's job. It just annoys the hell out of him, even though he professes to be for equality. His mother did everything for him. And I don't think his dad did much DIY.

cestlavielife, in addition to having "domestic standards", I am a small-scale eco-nut. Running the dishwasher half-full twice as opposed to once will create too much eco-guilt. How can one hang a towel up wrong? Well, I ask this very question of myself all the time. Apparently, one can. DH manages to through his towel over all the other towels that are hanging on hooks in the way that it is impossible to extract them unless you remove his towel first. It is mildly inconvenient in addition to untidy-looking. In general, if there is ANY opportunity for making something untidy, ugly or dirty, DH will take it. I am at the point when I consciously try to minimise this opportunity when arranging things in the house. . . . . It was better before DS, partially because there were fewer things to screw up and partially because I was less busy/sleep-deprived and was more tolerant. I do recognise that the issues we have are partially due to me, so I am working on myself too.

Wingedharpy, I do blame the poor woman. Her life is a hard one, but got she should have whipped DH arse into helping her.

LovesPeace, that is exactly what I am afraid of. I have a very strong feeling that these domestic issues really can destroy love and respect. When we argue, DH often says "But I love you! Surely you can see it!". To which I have to reply that no, I do not always see it, that just saying "I love you", is not enough. I have to be loved in the way I need to be loved - e.g. seeing that I am worth getting out of the comfort zone and doing some quality housework for.

Hyperballad, I am afraid so. But I am trying to be optimistic that we can work something out. There have been some improvements over the years:

• The kitchen floor is no longer a bog after DH does the washing up.
• DH is capable of hanging his suit trousers up without creasing them.
• The dishwasher saved us from greasy dishes and divorce.

Daddelion, so what are my options? DH is not exactly chained to me. He can go if he wishes. I am aware that my constant nagging and supervising undermines his confidence. This is why I am searching for a way to do it better. One thing I cannot do is stop fighting for equal rights at home because this will lead to divorce with 100% certainty.

DIYapprentice, thanks for the Flylady reference! It will be incorporated into the routine in due course (I don't want to rock the boat too much now). And I am planning to find a savings account where DH will transfer a good chunk of his salary, leaving him on a budget with the rest. Will so the same with myself to be fair.

maleview70, yes, I also console myself thinking that I provide people with jobs when I hire people to do what my friends do themselves.

arthriticfingers, ha-ha-ha! No prises for guesses whose job this will be.

AbigailAdams, that's what keeps me going - the though that if DH can be good at his job, SURELY he can learn to clean a stove top!

Thanks again for all your comments. They have a strangely calming effect and do help me to reflect about myself.

A few of thoughts:

Firstly instead of saying he has done a task "wrongly", decide which are the 3 most major frustrations for you. Pick a time when you are both fairly unstressed and say " Can I show you a different way to do x as I think it works better." Then show him and explain why it is an improvement. Only do it for these 3 issues, but repeat as often as needed until he remembers consistently. Don't nag, complain or criticise or say anything about about any other issues for at least 3 months (it takes at least a month to change a habit). Then introduce just one more major thing, allow 2 months before you introduce anything else etc. Don't "praise profusely". A simple thank for doing x is fine. He is an adult!

With regard to your son and TV watching. I work as a tutor and as time has gone on, I feel that excessive TV watching/computer games playing can be harmful to some children. For example if children I know are anything to go by, behaviour deteriorates in direct proportion to time spent on Nintendo DS. However that's just my opinion. What your husband should know is that there are Canadian studies that show watching too much TV can be harmful for the under twos. They compared TV watching toddlers ( I think it they watched an hour a day, but my memory could be wrong) versus toddlers who watched absolutely no TV before the age of 2. They assessed the children at age 10 and found that the "no TV" group were doing significantly better at school. They tried to allow for other factors that could also have made a difference such as social class of parents etc. This makes sense to me as children are laying down such important brain pathways in the first 2 years. TV watching can be "educational" but it is visual and audio 2d passive stimulation. Developing motor control pathways is a major component of baby/toddler learning and has implications for many issues, not just movement. ( cf dyspraxic people who have problems with motor control but also sometimes organisational skills and thought planning - NB I am not for one moment saying TV watching causes dyspraxia).

You say you feel guilty for not doing things in an eco way, but does your DH? If it is his turn to do the dishwasher or whatever, you have to allow him to do it in a less eco way than you would. You can't be his conscience, not should you feel guilty for what he decides to do!

Simulated domestic incompetence
Yes, excellent description.

Talking about being eco-nuts, I'm not one but I do recycle glass bottles and cans (though they have now stopped recycling cans here) and plastic milk bottles, I mean who doesn't? Well my DH for one. I know in the greater scheme of saving the earth etc a few dozen bottles don't matter but what really gets me is that I think he does it to annoy me.
Then if I am fishing about in the rubbish bin to get them out it is 'up to me' if I want to be that picky about something trivial - not 'up to him' to not be so dam lazy.

I mean he KNOWS noone would choose to spend time digging through the rubbish, hence my belief it is just a little wind up.

I feel for you. My own DP does almost no housework, he can wash up dishes occassionally (cleaning worktops is beyond him though) but day in day out tidying up and the rest of the cleaning (floors, bathroom, dust, laundry etc) is apparently my job. Eventhough we both work full time. Eventhough on mondays and best part of sundays i'm solely in charge of DS. I'm in charge of waking up with him in the night if required. I am accused of micromanaging him with DS but then when im not around he sends DS to childminders without a sweater (last week. It's cold but apparently im overreacting???). Or he manages to put a huge amount of hairgel into DS hair (which will never get dry!) and then gets in a huff when i get pissed off about it (DS has fluids in the middle ear and it gets exacerbated by colds and we have constant dr appointments with possibly needing gromits- i am still an overbearing control freak regardless of all!) I just feel like banging head against the wall sometimes. Preferrably, his.

Sorry for hijack, im feeling down this morning. But i understand. Using tv as babysitter gets on my nerves too. Or not wanting to go for a simple walk- ffs, is that so difficult?...

Have you thought about relate, we are seeing a counsellor ourselves and ir helped in some ways so far. Feels like i have managed to make him see my POV a little. There's still a looooong way to go for us though...

If i was you i would try to make sure im busy at the time when you normally have to take him to his hobby. How about 'darling, i signed up DS for this amazing swiming/dancing/(insert activity of your choice here), shame it clashes with your hobby but DS would sooo benefit from this and he loves it, you will have to find an alternative way to get to your hobby you twat'.

Simulated domestic incompetence - thank you. Bang on. Completed with selective blindness.

Is it selective blindness?

If DW is away, I'll remember to feed the dogs, because one of them will put his head on my knee. I'm quite capable of forgetting to eat, if I'm coding.

I'm very task-focused, so I'll for example go to the garage to get some loo rolls, but forget to bring in kitchen rolls, because I didn't see that I would need them later.

When DW is away, I write lists, down to a cook tea, dishwash, empty washing machine level.

Habits I'm good with; hang keys up, take meds, shower, put laundry in basket; even changing bed Saturday morning...

Left to my own devices, I clean worktop - habit, but would only hoover if I saw something on the floor - clump of dog hair, document shreddings...

If involved in reading, I'll need to be shouted or touched to bring my focus back.

DW copes I think by giving me a honeydo list, and helping me build habits, or coping with me saying "what can I do that's useful"...

"Honeydo list" ?

How ghastly.

Katisha
"Honeydo list" ?

How ghastly.

Why so?
Isn't it used in Britain? I picked it up in the States, and I thought it was quite common parlance. Maybe we mix with odd people

Perhaps learn to value your DH again too.... your view of DH will most certainly influence your DS', it's not fair on him to be portrayed like a loser to his son.
I stick my DS in front of telly in the morning even though DP hates it (and I know it), I pay for a cleaner once a week because I think it's too ridiculous to argue about who's turn it is to clean the toilet and I get DP to drive me around on weekends even though I have a driving license but i'm scared of damaging his sports car. I don't think those are reasons for divorce though....
We play it to our strength rather than try and split everything 50/50, I cook because i'm good at it, I put DS to bed because he's a bit of a mummy's boy and it's our speical time together.
I try to give DP some space to be the person he wants to be with DS.
DP handles all the bills, the workmen, and other things I can't think of right now. But I'm as guilty as you in not putinig enough effort in making DP feel valued. The more I criticise him, the less he tries and that's really sad as it's all my doing.

OP I hope you find Wifework useful, I did, I would suggest you read it all as well as giving it to your OH to read.

Personally, employing a cleaner was a cop out for us. Guess who ended up tidying round before the cleaner came? Arranging for dates for the cleaner to come, and paying the cleaner? It didnt solve the problem of DH not doing his fair share, it just meant someone else was doing his share.

I think you will "learn to value your DH again" when he makes the effort to share the load with you.

By the way "simulated domestic incompetence" sounds like manipulation to me and thats another nastier thing altogether.

Wifework is great, but it deals more with the emotional care-taking of adult males by wives than the housework issue.

This great article from 1970 discusses all the arguments men use to dump all the housework on women. Here's an excerpt:

"I don't mind sharing the housework, but I don't do it very well. We should each do the things we're best at." MEANING: Unfortunately I'm no good at things like washing dishes or cooking. What I do best is a little light carpentry, changing light bulbs, moving furniture (how often do you move furniture?). ALSO MEANING: Historically the lower classes (black men and us) have had hundreds of years experience doing menial jobs. It would be a waste of manpower to train someone else to do them now. ALSO MEANING: I don't like the dull, stupid, boring jobs, so you should do them.

"I don' t mind sharing the work, but you'll have to show me how to do it." MEANING: I ask a lot of questions and you'll have to show me everything every time I do it because I don't remember so good. Also don' t try to sit down and read while I'M doing my jobs because I'm going to annoy hell out of you until it's easier to do them yourself."

"We used to be so happy!" (Said whenever it was his turn to do something.) MEANING: I used to be so happy. MEANING: Life without house work is bliss. No quarrel here. Perfect Agreement.

"We have different standards, and why should I have to work to your standards? That's unfair." MEANING: If I begin to get bugged by the dirt and crap I will say, "This place sure is a sty" or "How can anyone live like this?" and wait for your reaction. I know that all women have a sore called "Guilt over a messy house" or "Household work is ultimately my responsibility." I know that men have caused that sore-if anyone visits and the place is a sty--they're not going to leave and say, "He sure is a lousy housekeeper." You'll take the rap in any case. I can outwait you. ALSO MEANING: I can provoke innumerable scenes over the housework issue. Eventually doing all the housework yourself will be less painful to you than trying to get me to do half. Or I'll suggest we get a maid. She will do my share of the work. You will do yours. It's women's work.

"I've got nothing against sharing the housework, but you can' t make me do it on your schedule." MEANING: Passive resistance. I'll do it when I damned well please, if at all. If my job is doing dishes, it's easier to do them once a week. If taking out laundry, once a month. If washing the floors, once a year. If you don't like it, do it yourself oftener, and then I wont do it at all.

"I hate it more than you. You don't mind it so much." MEANING: Housework is garbage work. It's the worst crap I've ever done. It's degrading and humiliating for someone of my intelligence to do it. But for someone of your intelligence....

"Housework is too trivial to even talk about." MEANING: It's even more trivial to do. Housework is beneath my status. My purpose in life is to deal with matters of significance. Yours is to deal with matters of insignificance. You should do the housework.

To summarise -

I'm a lazy bastard and will only do what I lke doing when I feel like it.

OP - I don't think it is wrong to be annoyed about small things like the loading of the dishwasher - and certainly not about the washing being hung wrong.

Doing small domestic tasks in an efficient and effective way frees up masses of time for other things.

Someone said 'just leave the dishes for the next load'. What a waste of time, water, electricity! Plus, then the kitchen isn't properly tidy for cleaning.

Sorry to say this, but you sound like my DH's ex. She nagged him and criticised him so much about housework, childcare and everything else that he just couldn't take it any more. He left and met me a few years later. He is still very glad to have escaped from her control and she has remained single as no man can put up with her exacting standards.

I'm very laid back about housework (hence my username!) and even after many years together DH tells me how much he appreciates my calm, gentle approach to life. Does it really matter if the house is untidy? A bit of dirt isn't something to get wound up about unless it threatens your health.

Please don't nag your DH constantly because he will get fed up eventually. You will probably find that he helps out more if you treat him like an equal adult partner rather than a child. Some men don't do anything at all to help out and it sounds like he's trying to be a decent father and husband.

Evening. Sorry I do not write during the day. Got to be more or less diligent at work.

educatingarti, thanks for the suggestion about 3 things. I am now thinking about what annoys me the most. It seems a systematic approach, which is what we need. And thanks for the info about the Canadian studies. I have heard about them, and they are at the root of my TV worries. I relayed them to DH today. He seems to take note. As for the eco-stuff, I don't impress it on DH. He could not give a rat's arse about saving the planet. I do all the recycling, local food shopping, trying to grow veg myself, etc., and do not expect him to do any of it.

BessieMcBean, that's just mean of your husband. He could at least leave the bottles in the sink or something. Grrrrr.

mozarela, please, hijack away. The problem that we are discussing here is so common, I sometimes have to check with the BBC that it's not 1950. We have not made to Relate yet, but, especially after big arguments, I certainly think of it. Mentioned it to DH once, but for him it's a no-go (but I don't think he will refuse to go if it really comes to the potential divorce stage). I am glad it's helping you. I went after the breakup of my first marriage, and they certainly helped me get my head in the right place.

OneMoreChap, I do not know if it is selective blindness. I am tending towards thinking that it is an unconscious conviction that housework is not men's problem. My DH does not "own" the house in the way that I do. I see all these tasks as fundamentally my responsibility. For him, they are an irritation. And sorry, but "honeydo list" is a bit ghastly. I have to agree with poster Katisha. But not because of horrid language twisting ("hun-do" anyone??), but because it seems to imply that men are witless twats that can't take a step in the house without wifey's directions. A few years ago, there was this story going around about a woman who was dying of cancer and was writing a manual about how to take care of the house and the children so her husband would know what to do after she was gone. Everybody was going "awwwwh, so tragic, but so sweet and motherly", and all I could think what "FFS, the poor woman cannot even die without worrying that her husband will starve the children."

Will be back.

myview, do you like eating off greasy plates using cutlery with bits of old food stuck to it?

charlearose, some of you seem to think that I have ridiculously high standards. I don't. I am just as capable as the next person of leaving dirty socks strewn around the bedroom floor for days. When I said that my DH did not clean the kitchen floor well enough, I did not mean that he did not get every speck of dust out of every corner. I meant that after he "cleaned" it, the floor was still covered in multiple sticky puddles of jam, an even layer of dried-on food and I gathered a large handful of food bits when I swept it. Fuck the corners. I just want my socks not to stick to the floor when I walk on it. Is that too much to ask for? Unlike yours, my DH also does not do DIY, bins or garden. Not of his own volition. Only if I ask and, often, nag nag nag. I cannot do it all myself as I am not a robot (and DH is not a child). And I do not want to pay for it all as why should we use the money that could be used for holidays/child's education to outsource tasks that a ten-year-old could do?

MouMouCow, I think we are in slightly different situations. My DH does not handle bills or workmen or pretty much anything besides his job and his hobby. I do value him very much for how he is in the emotional side of our relationship, but in practical matters I need much more involvement from him. He is very good with DS, but struggles with such things as packing his nursery bag. It took months for him to learn how to fold and unfold a standard pushchair. Several times when he strapped DS in the pushchair, he twisted the straps as to make DS seriously contorted. It's the same in cleaning matters. He first needs prompting from me to do anything, and then does a lousy job. It's like all these tasks are nothing but a PITA to him and he just can't wait to get rid of them. I want him to do things on his own initiative and do them well.

MrsOscarPistorius, yes, Wifework will be given to DH. And yes, I don't think the cleaner will address most of our problems. It will free up some weekend time and make the floors and the bathroom more acceptable, but the day-to-day minutia will still be there. . . . I don't think that DH is manipulating me. He could not stick to it for years.

HotDAMNlifeisgood, thanks for the extract!

Alibabaandthe40nappies, thanks! I don't like housework myself and am really just trying to minims the pain for everyone.

mouldyironingboard, please see above about the misconception about my standards. I am not talking about "a bit of dirt." I am also talking about one spouse relegating 90% of responsibility for life support (excluding his job and salary) in the family to another. Even SAHM complain about situations like this on this forum. I work full-time. Incidentally, DH actually appreciates a clean and orderly house with tasty food.

DH is on kitchen duty today again. It was potatoes and canned beans for dinner for me (I am a veggie) and he fried sausages for himself, without asking me whether they were done! So far so good.

Tbh, if he doesn't turn around soon and properly I think I'd take it to at least separation stages.

The floor issue is disgusting.
My kitchen floor at its worst doesn't look like that.
As someone mentioned he should be told how to do it, if that's an issue, and repeat until properly done.

I wouldn't be able to live with someone like this.

You sound a bit OCD. Thats not your husbands fault is it. YOu need to chill out a bit, at least he tries.

OP are you me ? I haven't read all the thread (just having breather at work) and I totally feel your pain. From the skim reading I've just done though I do wonder a lot about whether it is me that has changed since dd (22mo, so I'm assuming a similar age to your son) came along or is it him ?
Off to look at Wifework too now.
Will read fully later as some interesting stuff an tips / pointers coming up which as I say apply to me too!

You all talk as if OP was trying to train a dog. Her DH does not have to like to do housework. You can't tell other people what they should like in life.
As for telling him off in front of DS... how can that not affect DS' perception that his dad as a total loser. If this were the other way round all the usual MN posters would scream abuse...

HappyJoyful, I get a feeling that there are lots of our out there. It is hard for me to think whether I have changed after DS. One thing I can say for sure is that there is simply loads more work to do. DS, being a toddler, creates loads of mess. The state of the kitchen floor is mainly due to him. There is more laundry, more GP appointments, etc., it all adds up. We also bought a house after DS was born, and managing a whole large house that needs work is not the same as a small rented house where you have no responsibility for repairs. The house was bought when I was on maternity leave. As I was "not working", I pretty much conducted the whole purchase. We did discuss everything with DH, but I did the paperwork, communications with solicitor, surveyors, finding insurance, etc. So bits from this, like dealing with house insurance, just stayed with me. I am now looking to unload. And it looks like I have to put serious systematic work into this as opposed to just having rows.

MouMouCow, funny enough, I often think "I could have trained a dog to do this in a shorter time!". If you have better suggestions about how to avoid a situation where a husband goes to work and a wife goes to work and then does a second shift at home, I'd be grateful. I am not asking my DH to like housework. I don't like it either. Actually, I don't know anyone who likes it, apart from creative cooking. There is only so much joy that one can find in cleaning a toilet. But people, and especially women, do it, don't they? So why should my DH be exempt because he "does not like it"? He got married to me with full understanding that I will always work and never be his domestic servant. I do not enjoy telling him off in front of DS. I would very much like to change that and at least be able to wait until DS goes to bed. This is MY problem and I recognise it as such. However, I am not sure why you do not note the other side of the coin and the problem that DS may come to see his mother as his father's servant and get seriously twisted notions about gender roles.