Useless Husband. Or is it me?

[AutumnMadness]

I seriously need help. I am so sick of fighting with my husband about housework. I really do not want a divorce. My complaints: He cannot do nearly anything besides his job and his hobby. We both work full-time, doing the same job, and have a toddler son. We've been together for nearly five years. The problems were less visible when we did not have a child and lived in a small rented house, but really intensified since I gave birth and we bought a house.

We just had another fight, so forgive me for being incoherent as I am very upset. Substance of fight: I am feeling rather shitty today because of a cold. DH gets up with the DS (good). But immediately sticks him in front of the telly (we previously agreed a million times that DS is only allowed about 30 min, max an hour of cartoons in the evenings before dinner, but DH routinely uses telly as a babysitter). Then DH decides to clean the kitchen which is a tip since yesterday as I was not feeling well and went to bed early. DH empties the dishwasher and puts dirty dishes in it. Then he cleans the stove. I come down, praise him profusely, and ask him to wash the floor as it is caked with food. A bit later I come into the kitchen, find the stove and the floor still caked with food after DH "washed" them. There are still dirty dishes sitting here and there and the wooden counters are soaking with water. At this point, I am not annoyed as this is rather routine. I proceed to clean the kitchen while feeding DS lunch. In the afternoon, I ask DH to take DS for a walk as he really needs some exercise and is going crazy in the house. DH proceeds to whine about how rainy it is (it's not) and suggests that we put DS in front of cartoons (see above on telly). Then we dress DS. DH starts zipping his shoes before DS's foot is fully in them. I point this out. DH has a hissy fit about how "wrong" the shoes are. At this point, I've had enough and I explode.

I just hate this endless arguing, especially as DS invariably ends up as a witness. But it seems the DH just cannot do anything right. He cannot complete a cleaning job. He very rarely cooks and is utterly insecure about cooking (still cannot tell when sausages are done despite me showing him a million times). He cannot do DIY (I do it all). I look after the bills, car and house insurance. He has been promising me for years to sign up for driving lessons (I ferry him to his hobby). I deal with things like findings tradesmen to do work on our house and manage their work.

I just don't know what to do. DH has good sides (e.g. looks after DS at least once a week when I go to my hobby in the evening), but this generally child-like helplessness is driving me mad.

[Thingsdogetbetter]

I love my cleaner. Literally. Lol

I don't see it as spending money. I see it as gaining time, energy and a better, more peaceful relationship with my dh.

Worth every penny!

[PragmaticDIY]

I see that this discussion is quite old, however, I cant avoid comenting. I completely understand what you feel and experience with your husband who is, apart from being useless at home, very nice person. I am in a same situation, which is why I came accross this thread. You might definitely have your piece of guilt in the current situation - the same way I do with my husband. You look like overtake most responsibilities related to your household and family life,cause you know this is the best wa to make sure these will get a solution. If not, he will probably forget or do it late or spend twice as much money as you would bcs you know how to administer the money and are conscious about the work it takes to earn them. Our home is quite similar to what you decribed and I am desperate as well. Moreover, MY DH does not work, as we agreed to switch the role meanwhile our first born gets fully to the kindergarten. Now this is the case, I about to give birth to our second DS and stopped working. So I insist since a few months ago him to look actively for a job cause in some point we will be without any income - as I want to resign in order to take a 1-year with my new born /for many reasons/. Well, no job seeking is taking place, so I am desperate, try to help actively, send his CVs etc. etc. but nothing. The worst think in this issue is his way of using money, very similar to what you described. My DH also has his undeniable hobby which is not very cheap one. And he always has to have everything with the latest technology, and the best of its kind. Which means really expensive - and is not earning or doing anything in order to cover his needs plus get smth for the family - which I believe should be in the first place!!. Just driving me crazy the constant discussions about money and why not to buy an X thing which is cheaper than Y, and why I just dont want to let him administer our accounts and incomes,cause this will simply ruin us. ... Sorry for this sharing, but in case there is a recommendation how to improve all this package of serious issues, will be happy for that.
Btw mine is also quite good with our DS, a bit strict, but a good father in general. Helps at home - which is ok, cause if no job, at least he takes care of some household issues.

[Zaphodsotherhead]

Fuck. I've been 'zombied'. Sorry everyone.

[Zaphodsotherhead]

Wrt 'feeling like his mother'...
my own mother had similar control issues. i could never hang washing out right, clean the bathroom to her satisfaction, Hoover right, tidy properly etc etc.
It marred our relationship and I am still very distant from her. Think of your DS and how he's going to feel about you in a few years if he doesn't 'do his homework right' or messes up the bathroom!

[kaioucat]

I know this discussion took place about 5 years ago. But it ended rather abruptly! It feels like watching a movie and not knowing the ending! Of course, this is not a movie and it's about the OP's real life problems then - problems that I am similarly facing now.

I am wondering how things have turned out. Could the OP or any of the participants on this discussion share if their views have (or have not) changed? Any new experiences, perhaps?

[NotGoodNotBad]

"My DH often infuriates me when he tries to show his care for me by saying "would you just stop working and sit down!" What I need him to say is "I will do whatever you need to do, you sit down.""

Agree with this one! However, a couple of things:

1. Figure out what's important (e.g. jam on the kitchen floor) and what isn't (e.g. loading the dishwasher, zipping up shoes). DH reorganises the dishwasher when I've loaded it and I think he's a loon! But if he hangs up my skirt to dry I do often have to rehang it as otherwise it will be crumpled and create extra work as I'll have to iron it. Let the unimportant things go.
   

1. The hobby. You drive him an hour to get there? Madness (in my opinion...) And then you and DS hang around somewhere for 6 hours till you can drive him home? More madness. Buy him driving lessons for Christmas.
   

1. More on the hobby. What is it? Something technical, as it requires a £200 piece of equipment? I'm guessing sailing (disclaimer, I know nothing about sailing!) So, he can master this but can't fold a pushchair? What's that about?
   

1. If he really cannot master some of these things, split at least some of the work by task. He must be able to do something! Food shopping? Cleaning toilets? Emptying bins? Changing beds?

[OneMoreChap]

Just an aside... XW always said I hung up washing incorrectly.
Of course, anyone who says there is only one way to hang washing correctly probably deserves what they get...

Made my day when once we'd visited ILs, and my SIL (her brother's wife) berated me for the stupid way I hung the washing. "The idea is the breeze blows through them to dry them, not so they look nice..."

XW hove into view, "Sorry SIL, I hope you don't mind me telling OMC what an idiot he is..."

My unalloyed pleasure as I explained that XW had hung the washing, and consequently was said idiot was very sweet.

[Hyperballad]

Ha! Autumn, you've just made me chuckle out loud with that last reply to me!

[AutumnMadness]

Hyperballad, here I am, replying two days late. Sorry for being so late. We are all beaten by yet another nursery cold here. Thanks for the tablecloth thing. Am considering it for under DH's desk. However, do I care about what is under DH's desk? No.

WineGoggles, my suspicion is that my DH really does not notice the mess a lot of the time. Not all the time. I think the reason he does not see it is because subconsciously he does not consider it to be his work, so he does not think of it and, as a result, fails to notice it. "Housework" is just not an important notion in the way he frames and interprets reality. So if he was living alone with DS he probably would be nearly as bad as he is now. He would not be as bad because he would have to sort things like bills and GP appointments, but I bet jam would be on the floor.

MarjorieAntrobus, I very much relate to what you wrote. I imagine this is exactly how it will go in our household. We will probably continue arguing, hopefully not as much though. I will just have to ignore a lot of the stuff and come to terms that we will be paying for many things that other people manage on their own. Saying this, other people, I am sure, have other problems, so I should not envy them. I know what you mean about separate households dream. Or at least separate bedrooms. I sometimes think that it was not only prudishness that kept victorians in separate bedrooms. :) But so far I am always thinking about how to arrange things in the house that they require as little maintenance as possible.

Thank you so much, everyone. This thread has really lifted my spirits and made me feel more "normal".

[MarjorieAntrobus]

Your thread has been in my mind, off and on, for the past week since you posted it.

Gosh, yes, memories of my early married years.

I would love to say that I have the solution! I don't though. I do remember the conversations where DH said that I had higher standards than he did. I also remember that I decided to stop doing any stuff that I didn't care about. Those were things like the state of the car and the garden. Eventually DH picked those up if they became completely urgent.

See, in the early days, I was so naive. I remember embarking on a creosoting-the-fence task. DH was surprised that I was doing it. I thought it was a dead-obvious home-ownership task, having seen my DPs do such things. DH had not grown up with a garden. He thought I was being over the top. I did it once, then no more.

We have, between us, neglected a lot of household and garden work in the last 30 years. Me, because i refuse to do all of it. Him, because he just doesn't see it.

Get a dishwasher and a cleaner. Those two things halved our arguments.

Then, and this is a bit grim, only do the tasks that actually matter to you. Ignore the things that you don't care about.

I know that my DH can manage his household affairs when I am not with him. I know that because we often live apart, for many weeks at a time. The trouble is that when we are together I pick up the pieces, partly because he knows I will, and partly because I crack before he does.

Sorry. Not sure I have helped at all here! Sometimes I am so sodding angry with the whole housekeeping malarkey that I plan a two-household lifestyle in the future. Don't want to divorce, just don't want to keep house for ever.

[WineGoggles]

Autumn I'm with you all the way. Housework is a thankless task and it should be shared. I wonder if he'd be so bad at it if he lived alone with a young child? Whether he'd mind walking across a dirty, sticky floor, or eating off of dirty crockery? I also think that some men do housework badly because it's subconsciously beneath them, i.e. it's "woman's work", which I think is why I find it so very annoying.

[Hyperballad]

Autumn, I think it's really nice of you to try and reply back to everyone's posts!

Having read the latest posts......tip for kitchen floor regarding toddler, put the high hair on an old table cloth every time he eats, then you can simply scoop it up and shake it outside each time, when it gets bad just bung it in the wash. This hopefully will eliminate those sticky patches of jam and make keeping the kitchen floor cleaner a bit easier.

:)

[AutumnMadness]

Peterpan101, I think that part of my complaining about DH does stem from frustration with other parts of my life (e.g. when work gets to me or when I am sleep deprived because of DS), but most of the time it is really frustration specifically with DH. And I am very direct in expressing it and pointing at exactly what I would like done, how and even when. But still . . .

ponygirlcurtis, I feel so relieved that my DH is not the only one who cannot hang out the washing. I am not imagining it after all. I agree about the unconscious attitude, and mothering. I hate feeling like my DH's mummy or secretary or whatever. I really try to resist it. I also know what you mean about the no-win situation, sometimes I feel totally hopeless.

[ponygirlcurtis]

Autumn, I am sharing with you because I recognise a lot in your situation.
My NSDH had previously had serious cleaning jobs (in a hospital), and used to frequently tell me about deep-cleaning, and be obsessive about dirt/germs/etc. If I said I'd spent hours cleaning the kitchen (after the mess he made in it over the weekend), he'd make a 'oh really, where?' comment. Etc etc etc.

However, the truth is that he's a messy, dirty bugger. When he lived on his own, he'd mess the house up all week and then get his daughters to hoover and tidy up as soon as they came at the weekends (which is where the 'woman's work' things echoed for me). When we lived together, he'd make a trail of mess - getting out cornflakes and leaving them on the side for someone else me to put away, sugar everywhere, etc. He hung stuff on the washing line in a way that meant it took ages to dry, and his house was always immersed in drying washing (as it is again now that I no longer live with him...). I think it is all about an unconscious 'women's work' attitude. You end up feeling like his 'mum', which he then get to have a go at you for, for mothering him. You're in a no-win situation, either you are a nag or you have to put up with his untidiness and wait forever for washing to dry...

[Peterpan101]

It might help your DH as well?.....I learned so much from it. Or should I say: "I leaned why we fought so much".

Men think so much more in a literal, black and white way. We do not understand the subtleties of female speech. The man assuming that his woman is always complaining about him, when she is just complaining to express her frustration about her days lot caused so many arguments in my relationship. I became defensive so often.

Little tips like that might help :-)

[AutumnMadness]

Sorry I neglected the thread yesterday a bit. The experiment with the three nights of DH's "kitchen rule" is working not too badly so far. Things have definitely not been perfect, but I am hoping for improvement with time as long as he does not lose motivation. He has also done some good things for our finances.

HappyJoyful, I do, luckily, like my job. It is really what I want to do. However, I do not particularly like the organisation I work for, and my job also can be quite stressful. It is the kind of work where you have to be super self-motivated and self-organised and you get judged all the time. I guess I am also lucky in the way that I do not mind DS being in the nursery. I do really miss him and wish I had more time with him, but he is happy at the nursery. Just runs off and plays when I drop him off. But this means that at weekends I want to spend time with him as opposed to do stupid cleaning or DIY or whatever. . . . I know what you mean about "turning the blind eye and relaxing". The problem is that stuff piles up for you to do later. My DH often infuriates me when he tries to show his care for me by saying "would you just stop working and sit down!" What I need him to say is "I will do whatever you need to do, you sit down." Tangible difference. . . . To my shame, we don't get out "just the two of us" often at all. We've got baby-sitters (younger workers from DS's nursery are happy to do it), but most of the time we are just too lazy to organise anything. Bad, bad, bad, I know. I think it is important to do it more. . . . . I've been thinking quite a bit about the 3 things I would like DH to do more and better around the house as one of the previous posters suggested. Have you got three things that you can work on? Does your DH agree, at least in principle, that he should do more and better? What is his position?

OneMoreChap, yes, my DH can hold his ground in an argument and keep things even-handed. As for why I bought a house and had a child with somebody this clueless and lazy - I already wrote quite a bit that things were different before. You really cannot always predict how people will be when life around them changes. For instance, before I had DS, I could not tell you for the love of god what kind of mother I would be. I worried that I would be cold and neglectful. I cannot say how I would be if my DH develops a debilitating chronic mental illness.

BessieMcBean, thanks a million for support! We are working on improvements. Kitchen is the start and if this goes well, more things will be introduced and devolved. Unfortunately, my DH swoons as a mention of "lists", so we have to adopt a softer approach. I also think that he needs to build up confidence gradually. . . . Interesting thought about "nice jobs"! now how do we present toilet-cleaning as nice?. You really got me thinking about where I can tempt DH. . . . Paying for help is under discussion, but it will definitely not be a buy-out for DH.

Peterpan101, I might have to read that book. I am just afraid that it will go along the lines of "men just don't have good peripheral vision" or something.

[Peterpan101]

Sorry Ive not bothered to read to the end......but:
Read 'Men are from Mars, etc'........men aren't women, women aren't men. Its finding what the other one can bring to the party and communicating that to him/her.
Just a thought!?

[BessieMcBean]

You can also discuss paying for help but the paid for help should not mean that he gets let off doing stuff.

[BessieMcBean]

I think the next thing is to sit down together and discuss how to run the house. There are things that must be done (paying house insurance, making sure electricity isn't cut off, mowing lawn, clean dishes to eat off, feeding DS) and there are things that should be done and things that don't matter (but you would like them done). Perhaps all home improvements could be cancelled until DS is at school?

Write a list and you sit and decide together how to tackle it all. Perhaps decide the division on how important the job is (to keep you both happy) or how long the job takes. And make the list for what is done through the week so that nothing is done on Sunday.

His hobby / your night out can be included in the equation so that you are aiming for you both to have the same time off. Also bringing work home to do in the evening counts as me time.

Can he bath DS and put him to bed every night to give you some me time in the evening. Sometimes we hog the nice jobs (though they break into our me time) because we like doing them. You need to make sure you are not just moaning about the jobs you don't like, and let him do the 'nice' jobs sometimes.

If the jobs are clearly marked as his and hers then, if he forgets to put the bins out he has to deal with the excess rubbish lying around in bin bags that result, or go to a neighbour to beg their bin space, once he has had to do this a few times he will make more effort.

AFter a month revise things to see if changes need to be made.

Also do anything to make life easier. eg newspaper under DS high chair. Living with newspaper on your kitchen floor isn't the end of the world. And in that vein, DS will grow up before you know it and then you will wish DH could drive the situation will completely change.

[OneMoreChap]

AutumnMadness
I do not enjoy telling him off in front of DS

I should imagine not.

I take it he tells you off for your attitude towards him and your approach, just to keep things even handed?

He does sound a bit limp, but you say he's been like this for 5 years? And you bought a house with him? And bred with him?

You're certainly right to ensure that DS knows how to do the basics like hoover and iron... what's this hobby that takes all DHs time he should be spending with the family?

[AutumnMadness]

mouldyironingboard, asking nicely does not work. If it worked, there would have been a lot fewer threads like this on this forum. I always ask nicely first. Then again and again and again. Eventually, even very nice asking just turns into nice polite nagging.

[HappyJoyful]

Yes, there is more to do that's for sure. Sounds like you took on an awful lot with a new baby and a house move - blimey two very stress inducing activities. Sometimes I do find I need to step away from things to avoid the constant feeling of nagging or bickering over the bill paying, the domestic chores etc.
It's a never ending cycle sometimes and that's what depresses me - work, home, housework.. sometimes I feel I barely see my child and that upsets me and I think as you are saying too - you feel some of the issues are yours and being a Mum is bloody hardcore and changes life considerably.
Just a wondering if you like your job ? I think I'm particularly struggling as finding that not only do I feel unbalanced with spending time with my daughter but also then just doing the slog of work for the money to pay the bills etc rather than for a passion - being a Mum seems to have shifted my priorities in that sense?
I do agree with other posters though - I find if I can come home from work and actually just appreciate and enjoy my husband and daughter (as in Halloween last night gave us a distraction) and it was lovely. I turned a blind eye to the pile of washing and the dirty floor and just tried to relax rather than think of everything and worry about this that and the other.
What do they live in the moment? I know that bickering can become just spiral down and down and it almost becomes habit with me that if I don't say - 'oh can you do this' or 'this needs to be done'. Someone said something - maybe it was you! that it is a feeling of loosing respect for each other in the rat race of life, work busy busy.. somehow I feel that's what DH and I need to get back.
Can I ask whether you get to go out much as a couple ? I know everyone harps on about 'date nights' when you have kids - we don't have a supply of babysitters locally so it's a rare occasion for us and I do wonder if we actually need to get things sorted out there and try and make some more 'us' time..

[mouldyironingboard]

Unfortunately the more you nag the less your DH will feel like doing. He'll know whatever he does won't be good enough for you so why bother at all? My DH eventually just learned to ignore his ex's rants about housework completely. I'm guessing that if your DH showed initiative and started helping more you'd find it difficult not to tell him off for doing it wrong.

I suggest that you try asking him nicely in a gentle way to help out, you may find it works wonders.

[AutumnMadness]

HappyJoyful, just another thought - when children appear, there is just less time for everything. I just want stuff done and dusted as opposed to re-doing it or going "Darling, could you please . . . "

[AutumnMadness]

HappyJoyful, I get a feeling that there are lots of our out there. It is hard for me to think whether I have changed after DS. One thing I can say for sure is that there is simply loads more work to do. DS, being a toddler, creates loads of mess. The state of the kitchen floor is mainly due to him. There is more laundry, more GP appointments, etc., it all adds up. We also bought a house after DS was born, and managing a whole large house that needs work is not the same as a small rented house where you have no responsibility for repairs. The house was bought when I was on maternity leave. As I was "not working", I pretty much conducted the whole purchase. We did discuss everything with DH, but I did the paperwork, communications with solicitor, surveyors, finding insurance, etc. So bits from this, like dealing with house insurance, just stayed with me. I am now looking to unload. And it looks like I have to put serious systematic work into this as opposed to just having rows.

MouMouCow, funny enough, I often think "I could have trained a dog to do this in a shorter time!". If you have better suggestions about how to avoid a situation where a husband goes to work and a wife goes to work and then does a second shift at home, I'd be grateful. I am not asking my DH to like housework. I don't like it either. Actually, I don't know anyone who likes it, apart from creative cooking. There is only so much joy that one can find in cleaning a toilet. But people, and especially women, do it, don't they? So why should my DH be exempt because he "does not like it"? He got married to me with full understanding that I will always work and never be his domestic servant. I do not enjoy telling him off in front of DS. I would very much like to change that and at least be able to wait until DS goes to bed. This is MY problem and I recognise it as such. However, I am not sure why you do not note the other side of the coin and the problem that DS may come to see his mother as his father's servant and get seriously twisted notions about gender roles.