Dh has no patience with the dc

[mabelm]

We have 3 dc, 6, 3 and 2. Dh has always suffered from a low-level depression, continuous low mood and a low tolerance level for anything. Ie, he gets very angry very quickly. He is not physically violent but he shouts alot.

Our eldest dc is very exuberant, very strong-willed and it is difficult to get him to do anything he doesn't want to do. In general I have a lot more patience than dh but have found it hard to manage ds1 and I have been unacceptably shouty since dd (about to turn 2) was born. I now feel I am much more in control and so I am now able to manage the dc without shouting (much!).

However, dh just snaps really really quickly, he gets so angry with the kids all the time. I feel I'm on tenterhooks the whole time to jump in before it escalates.

An example from this morning - asking ds1 to come to breakfast - when he doesn''t come dh v quickely escalates to shouting and making wild threats re missing trips out etc.

We have never had a day where dh has not "blown up" over something throughout the day.

I have put up with it for so long and have understtood it (his father is like this but worse) and I have sympathy for the depression, but I am just getting to the point where I'm finding it hard to live with anymore.

Part of it is that when he gets angry he talks to you in a rude way eg (Didn't you hear me calling you?????) that really gets my back up and the dc mirror this way of talking. Again, this is how his family communicate - every converstation is quite confrontational, but I don't want my family to be like this..

Anyway.... sorry for long post I was just wondering if anyone else has experiences of this and if anyone has any thoughts about it.

I should say that I am trying hard to challenge this behaviour and dh is aware it is unacceptable and he is trying not to, but he is still doing it. I''m just not sure he can change...

Oh yes, I got that 'You are not pulling your weight as a parent' crap too. It was baloney. I was accused of benign neglect, being a lazy mother, etc. It was all part of the abuse.

You are barking yup the wrong tree sending him to parenting classes.

If he cared he would be a better parent already. People don't get to this point of their lives, with a job, a boss, a mortgage, and a car, etc., without being able to rein it in when they want to or need to.

He doesn't feel he needs to. He sincerely doesn't care that he is a horrible parent and spouse.

Hi mathanxiety, thanks for your posts, they've really made me think.

I don't honestly think my dh is that bad. His default approach is not to be angry and rude, but he has a very short trigger. He is very loving with the dcs a lot of the time, but he has a tendency to overreact to bad behaviour.

I think the previous poster (sorry can't remember name) was on the money by saying that he doesn't know a different way to parent due to his own bad parenting and he just doesn't seem to realise it is wrong half the time.

I do think parenting classes are a good idea, I guess he will show if he is willing to accept his bad behaviour by whether or not he's willing to go... I guess that will show if he does care or not.

ExH could be sweet as pie when it suited him. When we finally got to counselling he admitted he held the view that the children should be happy only if he wanted them to be happy. Therefore the good times were part of his control thing just as the horrible times were.

ExH didn't know another way to parent either. His parents were just as bad. His father broke the leg of one of his sisters spanking her for 'bad behaviour' in church. Yet the father held down a really good job and was recognised as a leader in his field (a surgical specialty, amazingly enough) and exH was well able to be pleasant and mannerly in his own professional life.

You already have proof that he can control himself from your realisation that he does not behave like this with colleagues.

He is not losing his temper. He is using it. He is choosing how he behaves.

Hi mablem

I think the previous poster (sorry can't remember name) was on the money by saying that he doesn't know a different way to parent due to his own bad parenting and he just doesn't seem to realise it is wrong half the time.

If you have explained that it is wrong, and why, and he carries on in the same vein, then he absolutely does realise that it is wrong, but doesn'e want to change.

The book recommended by others up thread "How to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk" is fantastic. I read it, recommended it to my STBXH (who was almost identical to yours) he wouldn't read it, asked me to read it and tell him the best bits [hhmm], eventually I bought the audio book and put it on his phone. He still didn't listen to it. His parenting was impatient, shouty and damaging. I kept telling him this and trying to help him change. He didn't want to change badly enough. This was really hurtful to me and was one of the reasons that we are separated and now divorcing. (Incidentally he is now a much better Dad, more positive, less shouty etc and he recently recommended the above book to his GF before she met our DCs [hhmm] [hhmm]!!! too little too late tho)

I really hope that your DH wants to be a better dad, and is prepared to put some effort in. If not, than I hope you find the best way through this for you and your DCs.

Hi mathanxiety - your ex sounds awful and dear god - his dad breaking a child's leg how hideous.

I don't think I'm in denial here though, dh really isn't that bad. If he was I would be gone. But I think you're right, he is choosing to be this way, he could be different if he really wanted to...

Sorrymylollipop - thank you for sharing, I guess it is going to come down to whether or not he'll put some effort in now..
I am definitely going to order that book, a few people have recommended it, thank you.

I can control my temper easily in public and at work, my emotions bubble up much more easily at home and with family. The same with tears, jumping up and down with excitement etc. I thought this was pretty standard, hence I don't think him having a short fuse at home and not being so angry out of the home is evidence of abuse. (he may indeed be abusive, I don't know, but I don't see the homes/away difference as any kind of evidence)

qumquat there is a big difference between feeling in a safe enough space to express feelings like joy and sadness and even anger (which is what you do, from the sounds of it), and taking out your unresolved issues on others, with no regard for the effect it has on them.

Anger has been talked about a lot on this thread, and I want to stress that it is not at all a "bad" emotion per se: it's a feeling like any other. It is perfectly legit - right and healthy, in fact - to say to someone : "I am angry at the fact that you did x".

This is not what OP's H is doing: he is using intimidating behaviour to keep his DC and wife under his control.

I just wanted to say dh and i had a short talk this am where I suggested parenting classes and the how to listen book and he has agreed. He has also said that if he can't sort himself out he will leave...

so I thik this is evidence he does really want to change, I am just a bit worried that he gets into negative spirals and he may convince himself he can't change and tht will be a self-fulfilling prophecy...

Anyway, thanks alll, this thread has really helped get things straight in my mind.

qumquat - I know what you're saying, but it surely shouldn't be that you can control yourself for 8 hrs a day at work and then eg get angry straight away at home if someone mis-hears you? I said to dh (ina text) that I do think he must at some base level he is not aware of, think it's ok to treat us like this...

I am glad that he will be taking this seriously. I am not saying he is as bad, but I grew up with an angry parent, and would be told "Get out of my fucking sight you retard", "You're a waste of space" and "If you don't do x,y or z, I will bury your head in the fucking concrete" type things. I was absolutely petrified of being near them, and ran away many of times to a relatives. Still to this day, it is engraved in my head and I still believe I am a waste of space etc. It is very damaging, on any level. Just because your DP may not go to that extreme, it will still be damaging.

Ask him this, does he want his DC to run away, and move miles away at the first opportunity? This is what I did, and I don't trust them with my DC. My DC will never get weekends at their GPs, because I can't trust that they will be able to keep their anger in check. Does your DH want that? To not have a good relationship with his children and grandchildren? As that is what his behaviour will sabotage, and not only that, but he is risking his children developing issues of their own.

One thing I do have my angry parent to thank for, is showing me how not to parent. Your DH should be thinking the same.

Wishing you luck.

Am finding the thread quite hard to read. Dh and I shout quite alot. I shout more than he does at the children. I never used to be a shouter. I am well aware its not good, but I did not consider it abusive. People have very different views as to what constitutes abusive. But I will certainly give some thought to some points made. And will certainly have a look at some of mathanxiety's links.

Damn - I just spent ages writing a long post and have lost it......

I just wanted to update that Monday was a real turning point for us. After our chat in the morning I sent dh some hard-hitting texts where I said he needed to see his behaviour in he most serious of terms in that it was damaging for the children. I admitted that it had got to the point of me wanting him to leave and that, for the large part, the years since our eldest ds was born have not been happy ones for me...
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Well, it has been like scales falling from his eyes. He described it like a film where you get half way through and then are given some crucial evidence that madesyou see the whole thing and the main character ina completely different way. He is competely gutted at the effect his behaviour has been having on us and is really struggling with seeing himself in a different light.

I guess I just can't imagine what it would be like to grow up in a family where people interact with each other that way all the time and although he knew his family and his dad were screwed up I think he had underestimated the extent to which he was behaving in the same way. His behaviour was probably border-line abusive but I don't think he is "an abuser" as such, he is a genuinely empathic caring person who had a shit upbringing and had been blind to parts of his own behaviour and impact on the people around him.

Since then he has been acting really differently - it isn't like the above situation I posted where he was clearly trying not to get angry - he just seems to be seeing us and his intereactions with us in a different way. It really feels like he's opened his eyes and his heart to how he should really be dealing with us.

I am just so so grateful to everyone who posted on this thread - it has been a massive turning point and I honestly feel like things are going to be so different from now on.....

The irony is that I think a large part of his own unhappiness is due to the way he interacts with us... It feels like we could all end up a lot happier.

Anyway, I am going to keep posting on here as a record for myself and also in case it helps other people going through similar things.
I will post this and then respond to oblomov

Hi oblomov,
I'm not sure if it helps to get caught up in labelling behavour as abusive or not. The question is what effect is your shouting having on your dc. I think the thing with shouting is that you are not teaching your kids anything positive at all, you are not helping them learn how to behave properly. They will grow up thinking you just get angry and shout when people do things you don't likee..

I am sayign this from the point of view of someone who has shouted at their son alot over the last couple of years and I feel very ashamed of it now. Over the last months as my youngest has got older and I feel more in control of everything I have really tried to change this and have found my dc respond much better to me. That's irony I guess!!

But I would say in the context of this thread that my dh's behaviour has been more than just shouting - he has an angry response for most bad behaviour and hasn't had a very nice way of interacting with us quite a lot of the time. Only you know whether your behaviour is just shouting alot or an overall negative and angry way of interacting.

Abusers can change. It's just that most of them don't want to. Fingers crossed that your DH really does get it and learns to be not only a better but a happier parent. Just don't hold your breath because it won't be easy to give up his privileged position as The Angry One Who Must Be Placated, even if he genuinely wants to. Be firm, stick with your ultimatum, he changes or you split.

"how can dh possibly know how to parent effectivley when he was brought up theway he was".

The short answer to that is that he cannot.

The way he was parented or not in his case however, is no justification for the ways in which he acts now. Abuse as well seeps down the generations; its now being played out with your children and you as his main victims. You're now the second generation to be affected.

This is not about anger managerment, its not about that at all and never has been. He can control his temper when he wants to. Your situation is instead all about power and control; he wants to dominate you all (I was also going to suggest that you read both Why does he do that and Living with the Dominator). It is also telling that he does not act like this in the outside world, abusive men are very plausible to those on the outside.

I would be very wary about his sudden change of heart; this could be just a part of the continuous abuse cycle of nice and nasty. I sincerely hope I am wrong but I may well be right.

At least you yourself realise that such behaviour he shows is damaging to your children but if this change is short lived (and with abusive men they revert back to type given time) who ultimately comes first to you - him or them?. You have a choice re your man; they do not.

You need to consider as well what sort of childhood do you want to give them and what will they remember as adults about their own childhoods?. You may well get two very different answers if you were to remain within this for the long haul. They will not thank you for staying with such a man if he was still to continue shouting at them and wonder why you stayed with him (and that will damage your own relationship with them).

What do you want to teach your children about relationships?. Both of you need to think very carefully about the lessons you have shown them.

I think a useful way to get a sense of perspective on how you are coming across with your children is to imagine being a witness to someone else dealing with their children the way you deal with yours, for instance if you overheard a similar interaction in a supermarket. Make yourself a fly on the wall in your mind's eye.

Or ask yourself how you would feel if you thought your child's teacher was shouty most of the day with the class or with your child in particular. The teacher scenario might be the most apt since you are your child's primary and most important teacher.

Would you accept this sort of treatment for your child from someone else? Think perhaps of a step mother or step father?

Mabelm,

Several years ago it dawned on me that my dh was behaving abusively towards me and dc. Like your dh, mine has an abusive father (and an alcoholic mother). My dh stepped over the mark with my eldest dc and that was the turning point for us. Prior to this I had tried to explain to dh that his anger affected us all badly. Like yours he blamed me (I had pnd, hardly surprising really) and dcs behaviour for his rage. Because I had put up with this behaviour for several years, my internal barometer was broken. I saw his behaviour through his eyes, I could see that dc were acting up so I found it 'easier' to explain away dh's anger. Because dh was so verbally agressive towards them (and generally aggressive to inanimate objects like wall, doors, anything that annoyed him - and occasionally me), I spent my time defending them - this enraged him even further as I was seen as being lax and slack with discipline, whereas he was the one who was seeing the bad behaviour and was 'trying to deal with it' ('because nothing else works').
It was absolutely exhausting and looking back I was a shell of a person. 'Walking on eggshells' was how I described (to him) how I felt. Then I discovered MN and realised that this 'walking on eggshells' feeling was a common denominator in just about all abusive relationships and that was the first of my wake-up calls.
Following an incident where dh threatened our eldest dc physically -something had to change. Dh started therapy and so did I (again). For the first 18 months- 2 years I realise now I was exploding with rage (internally) about how dh had treated us, or I was desperately trying to work out whether his behaviour was unacceptable or not. It took me about 2 years of therapy to be able to trust my own instincts again. It took dh about 2 years to turn things around.
A parenting course may help a bit, but your dh needs to do a lot of work on himself. No one else can do it for him.
I think counselling for yourself may help too - You seem to have put up with your dh's anger for a good while without fully understanding how damaging it has been.