Is this what they call emotional abuse? Re: a family member

[Namechangeyetagain]

This is about my brother.

There is a large and complicated backstory involving my brother and his 'victim' status. He suffers from low self esteem, anxiety and cyclical depression. I won't go into now as this post would be an essay! However, he is very loyal and 'proper'. He He wouldn't dream of laying a finger on a woman, believes in equality and is a bit of a romantic. He met his wife about eight years ago and she turned his life around. She helped him with his debts, he became happy with life for the first time, they married and very soon after had a child.

At first we all got on with her although she would sometimes behave oddly. She could be quite negative and critical of my brother, even doing it in front of our mother and friends and family. When mentioned to my brother he would just shrug and say 'that's just her'. After sometime he admitted that she herself had past struggles with depression and it affects her self esteem.

As time has gone by, her behaviour can be very inconsistent and frustrating. She can switch from being lovely to being moody and outright rude. She can also be quite self-absorbed e.g you can spend quite a bit of time with her without her once asking how you are. She is also very controlling, she controls the finances, all the decisions regarding the children and the house. 321We all put this down to this just being her.

She decided to move the whole family to the other side of the country, my brother didn't really have a choice in the matter, as it was a case of she would take the kids and go without him. I think he has always tried to convince himself he wanted to go. Being so far away makes it tricky for any of us in his family to know really whats going on. After a few long conversations with him recently, it seems her behaviour has become intolerable and controlling and he dreads going home each night.

It seems that over the last year she has become quite down and takes it out on my brother. He has started calling me to ask me if this is 'normal' behaviour between spouses.

Examples include her telling him she doesn't respect him due to him earning less than her. She can't bear the idea of spending the rest of her life with him
She wishes she never had children with him
Telling him he should be moving out. Then changing her mind because it would upset the children. She does apologise but as my brother said, this comments ring loudly in his head and makes him feel like shit.

She has very strict rules in the house which can often make visiting quite uncomfortable for family. If he deviates from these, she has certain sanctions in place which if he challenges it usually descends into an argument which he admits ends up with her throwing things then disappearing out of the house for hours leaving him with the children. He said he wouldn't dream of doing this and if he did, she would go ballistic. She has a social life and insists on going out quite a few nights a week yet creates my brother wants to go anywhere.

He also told me that he feels like he is a visitor in the house and like he has no claim over anything. He feels violated by her family who regularly come in and out and breach his personal boundaries. I don't think his name is on the mortgage as she purchased the house. I think this is something he has only recently discovered although may not be sure about this.

She does have counselling, so does he in fact and I believe they are attempting marriage counselling but I don't think it is going well.

I know my brother is hard to live with. He can be a pain when he gets miserable. He is not great with money (he has none) and he is not very responsible and can be forgetful, but he is a great father and adores his kids. He constantly feels insecurity as she holds all the cards. He is terrifed of losing his kids.

What can I do to help? I am rapidly beginning to dislike her and want to call her up and challenge her. I hate, hate her behaviour and when I saw my bro the other day he looked terrible. He is on medication and overeating compulsively, and is in danger of losing his job. I know she is largely at the route of this, yet he often makes excuses for her behaviour.

Any constructive advice or action he can take? I know he is going to call me tonight and talk more about it.

Lueji
This last is something a dv victim would say of an abuser...

Not entirely sure what you are implying here. My brother is in no way violent towards his wife.

Dv is not only about violence.
And how do you know he's not?

It's just that he clearly has faults, and its kind of odd that what you chose to say about him is the same as a victim and it might be advisable to investigate how much of what he says is true.

I know my ex's version would significantly differ from mine...

I know he is not physically violent because he is my brother who I am very close to and have know for 35 odd years! You, however, don't know him from Adam plus I would in no way condone any violence, and if there was even a sniff of this from my brother, I would suggest my SIL, no matter what her faults are, seek help and kick him out.

And here we have it.

A woman in an abusive relationship is believed, supported and told it's not her fault.

A man in an abusive relationship is viewed with suspicion, there are frequent reminders that it is important to get both sides of the story, and accusations about how his own behaviour might be the cause for the abuse.

Because, of course, women can only ever be victims of domestic abuse and men are only ever the perpetrators.

Namechangeyetagain, please do encourage your brother to talk to Men's Advice Line, Mankind, FNF or some other agency with experience of female-on-male abuse. I hope he gains the courage to get the help he needs. I found one-on-one counselling quite literally life saving.

I'm now going to bow out of this thread because the hypocrisy is starting to really get to me.

Thank you Snorbs

That post was really helpful and articulated how I feel.

I have spoken to him today. He STILL keeps making excuses for her behaviour, despite the fact that she has informed that the only good reason she keeps him around is for child care.

I've also found out she has persuaded him to give up his one to one counselling. He really didn't want to do that.

I agree with Snorbs. The OP is not just relying on the brothers accounts but has witnessed some of the behaviours.

Sometimes it can be obvious who the victim is from witnessing glimpses of the crazy from the abuser, and from the victims reaction and their general behaviour (e.g. you might notice a "jumpiness" and a constant fear of doing something wrong, even with people other than their abuser), and to some extent the victims confusion and self-doubt (which indicates they are not just being hyper-critical, or looking to make the partner look bad, in fact the victims often make excuses for the abuser or minimise the abuse). The wearing down process the abuser adopts makes it difficult for the victim to leave, or even to see the abuse for what it is.

I knew a man in an abusive relationship and it sounds like what your brother is in. The controlling, sulking/tantrum throwing when she didn't get her own way, criticising etc.

I think it is worth trying to get him to talk to those helplines as dealing with an abuser is not like dealing with a rational reasonable human being. If he decides to seperate they could give him some advice. But if he doesn't seperate now, at least they might make him feel validated.

Sorry was writing that while you posted Namechange. God red flags all over her behaviour.

I will try to PM you some links later which might be of use.

ha some of the people on here, your brother is going to make excuses for her behaviour because like any body in an abusive situation his confidence and belief in himself has been destroyed. he probably is thinking he is getting only what he deserves. if you are constantly ridiculed and told you are rubbish, ie the only reason I am with you is for child care, spend your time on egg shells trying to diffuse the next bad situation before it even happens. then you are going to feel crap about yourself. she has withdrawn him from family and friends and now she has convinced him to stop counselling (the only thing that made my bf realise he needed to leave).
I imagine she is probably sexually with holding as well, in general or as punishment for breaking her rules.
the woman on here defending behaviour like this should be ashamed of themselves, if your man is bad with money you sort it out you chat about it and find ways to deal with it.you dont ridicule him and treat him like a child call him names and tell him how pathetic he is. well you know not in a loving stable none abusive relationship.
if this was a woman talking about a man then you would all be up in arms saying leave the bastard. not he deserves it for being an incapable male, disgusting.

None of us know him from Adam - a bit defensive there, OP, nobody knows you from Adam either.

Nobody disbelieves you, but you are making a lot of generalisations that make it sound like you simply don't like her despite the fact that she turned your brother's life around.

On the other hand, she could be a controlling narcissist, but you need to give us some clear examples of exactly what was said etc.

Man Up? ???

I am appalled!

People who have no concept of DV really do need to back off from posting such utter shite. Is a victim of DV less of a human being? Are they weak? Pathetic?

No! They are NONE of these things, they are worn down, dominated, manipulated and controlled. They have been conditioned to believe it's their fault they are being treated this way.

The exact opposite is true.

OP, your brother needs help, his kids need help, SHE needs help. To leave them oin peace.

Please get all the info you can, support him in everyway you can. There is no plab b. She won't get any nicer, only worse. His DC will end up either abused or abusers. You can help prevent this from happening to another generation of your family.

I'm hoping that your relationship is healthy, but please realise that his upbringing caused this, and there by the grace of god, could you have gone too.

He needs to be supported to continue with his counselling. He could talk to Respect, who although are mainly there for perpetrators of dv can also help those who suffer it and often there are men on the phonelines, which could be useful to a man seeking advice.
One thing about dv is not to make assumptions, but to give the person who is suffering the space to talk and be there to listen. It is horribly complex yet also very simple, which isn't much help but one thing that has come over in these posts is that yes your brother will come up against assumptions that it is always the man who is abusive. It is not how the housework or childcare is divvied up or who brings in the most money but rather what happens when one partner feels resentful, or communication is refused and the whole idea of sanctions and rewards for good or "bad" behaviour is treating an adult like a chattel which is abusive.

Hello again.

I'm sorry if I sounded defensive but I was really looking for advice, rather than disbelief and accusation that my brother is the abuser.

Yes, her behaviour has been witnessed by all family members, but like idiots, we just made excuses.

As for 'details' I wasn't that keen on giving out too much info.

This Canadian site might be of use (this section is directed at male victims of DV)

www.heart-2-heart.ca/men/index.htm

There is a section here Are you being abused?

www.heart-2-heart.ca/men/page1.htm

You might recognise some of the signs.

(They also have a section for female victims of Domestic Violence here

www.heart-2-heart.ca/women/index.htm)

Thank you rosemarysage, there is a lot that resonates here.

Thank you everyone for your input. Lots to think about.

I think it's useful to remember that women were not supported on issues of DV in the past - they had to fight for it. Previously they would have been told that keeping the family together was the priority and just to put up with it (you've made your bed and now you must lie in it), to stop nagging or 'asking for it', or to put on some lippy and even be sexier to keep him happy!

Many women were told by friends, family and church that it was all their fault. The police would not intervene in a 'domestic'. They may unofficially have taken the guy out for a word or for a trip in their car and a long cold walk home but no charges were brought and the victim often got even worse treatment from her abuser for involving the police.

Abused men are at the stage women were just a few decades ago and they will need to work, just like women did, to have their issues recognised.

OP your brother does sound abused. If SIL doesn't do housework why should she expect others to? If she has time during the day she should be doing some housework if your DB is expected to when he's not at work. What right does she have to stop your DB's social life? None. Moving a partner away from family and friends is a common tactic of abusers. Just because he is not good with money that does not give her the right to have total control. Does he have access to money when he needs it? You can be the main manager of the money without depriving your partner of their financial rights.

I think he needs to find out where he stands legally and financially but even if worse off in many ways he would still be a lot happier by the sounds of it.

Apparently DB likes to keep things tidy and neat but SIL doesn't mind it messy. He clears up the kitchen, does his laundry and puts the kids to bed.

They both have issues around depression and when he does something she has 'sanctioned' there is an argument and she walks out or tantrums.

He doesn't like her family coming round.

When asked by him if perhaps she could do a bit during the day so he could grab some downtime or maybe go out, her excuse is she is working. This division of labour worked when she was at home looking after the kids but now she isn't. I pointed that out to him and he admitted he felt it was unfair now. He is up til really late catching up on chores then he has little sleep and ends up being late to work - two flashpoints for his wife.

The division of labour isn't working because she is working! Your DB does 3 tasks out of many, she does all the rest.

Perhaps DB needs to realise that if she works then he will have to do more around the house. I think there is controlling behaviour on both sides, and I think OP your attitude is also a bit controlling. You both have the same mother, you said yourself she is like your mother. Perhaps you have also picked up some of her traits.

Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.

achillea please read thread properly before commenting. the brother works full time, the wife part time, I think we can all read between the lines and see that he is been expected to do lots more than 3 tasks especially when he asks her to help out and it causes a row. she has an active social life and he is not allowed to go out at all. your take on it is very odd.

duffedup you can't 'read between the lines' in this way. OP doesn't say he is not allowed to go out at all. Perhaps he doesn't particularly want to go out? I'm not saying he's a victim or an abuser but I think it is not very clear from what OP has stated here. He works full time, she works part time but she does nearly all the chores, so that kind of balances out in my book.

It sounds as if both DB and the SIL have issues. My take is not the same as yours, but it's not 'odd', thanks!

It does seem as though OP wants to get DB away from her but is twisting things a bit on this thread. Just how it seems. This woman turned her DB's life around - there's more to this than just division of labour and tantrums.

Your brother could be my DP, except I work full time and he doesn't.

I am in charge of all the money - yes, because he is useless and has debt collection letters coming out of his ears.

I go out all the time (according to him, not true btw) but I moan when he does- no, I moan that he will spend every last penny when he goes out and turn up the next morning asking for me to pay his cab fare home.

I expect him to keep a general level of 'clean and tidy' and do inform him if I think he has done nothing at home all day. I get home at half 6, clean and tidy all washing up/ kitchen mess. I do DDs homework, I do most tidying, put my own washing away. I don't think I should have to do much more than that during the week. But I certainly should do that at night because why should my working day finish when I leave work but expect my DP to run around til bedtime clearing up after me?

Your DB could be a victim of abuse, but also your SIL may just be trying to ensure your DB does his fair share. I don't see why he's up until bedtime doing everything. By 8 o clock here I (and my DP) am sitting down relaxing after having done everything.

I may have also said in an argument that I am only with him for childcare. I fully accept my relationship isn't the healthiest, but it's not because my DP is being abused by me. Money/ housework and childcare are the least of our arguments and nobody knows how he treats me when our doors are closed.

Sorry to go on about my situation but the truth is you are only hearing your brothers side of the story. Your SIL may have a very different view.

messy you sound like you live with a co worker, over organised and soulless

That is part of my point. It 'sounds like' that when you write it down. But it isn't like that at all.

I feel sorry for both parties in the relationship, OP. They must both be extremely stressed and unhappy.

Is it affecting the children? I think if the children are likely to be fucked up by the relationship, then it's time for them to consider calling it a day.

Achillea
Thanks for responding, although I am not sure you read my posts correctly, or jumped to some conclusions. Possibly I haven't explained myself well.

DB does the bulk of the housework and she does very little. This is well-known and she jokes she no longer needs a cleaner since she met him. He works full-time, she works very part-time. No childcare during the day, most of the time he looks after the kids in the evening as she has commitments and a social life.

Over the years I think the domestic chores have become more and more his responsibilty. To be honest, this is only a small part of the problems.

As I said originally, the biggest issue is the erosion of his self esteem. It's the way she talks down to him and her controlling behaviour, e.g he said he would call me over the weekend to talk but only if he could make an excuse to get out of the house! She doesn't like him talking to his family, to the point where we all tend to call him on his mobile during his journey to and from work as we know we can have an uninterrupted conversation with him. Call at home and she will refuse to pass over the phone, not pass the message on, or after two minutes come and interrupt insisting he finishes the call.

Suffice to say, I know this woman and have known her some a long time. Most of the time I get on ok with her, in fact, she can be very nice and friendly, but now that my DB broke down and admitted to me the extent of her behaviour, I feel very bad and neglectful as part of me has always felt there was some warning signs that something was wrong.

What amazes me is if I was talking about my SISTER, I bet there would be very different responses. I highly doubt I would be accused of being controlling/wanting to get rid of the husband/disliking the husband and I doubt any of you would be suggesting I get the husband's side of the story.

I am really appreciative of all the links and advice people have posted and will certainly be passing them onto my DB at some point.