Do abusive husbands ever mend their ways?

[shellshockedmumof2]

In your experience? Have you ever kicked them out, had them successfully attend therapy/medical treatment/whatever they need and then seen them go back to being the loving, caring, non-abusive husband they once were?

I posted a few days ago. Background is I got occupation order and non-molestation order against DH last Friday, he has been out of the house since then. DH has been suffering from depression and possibly worse for last months and became verbally and physically abusive with me, in front of the DCs. We have two tiny DCs and I am a full-time working mum. Am now trying to decide - do I give the relationship another chance if he goes gets medical help and recovers? Or do I file for a divorce now because abusers never mend their ways and there is a high chance that he will fall back into old patterns?

What is your experience? Many thanks for any answers/opinions/views.

SeveredEd a psychiatrist prescribed anti-psychotic drugs explaining to me it was a very low dose, which is also used to treat severe anxiety and related disorders - but there were also a few psychotic episodes

cestlavie thanks for the advice, yes I have said only supervised contact with the DCs, and I think I will get those books. Very sadly my in-laws despite being very loving and caring parents for DH have also been on the receiving end of his abuse, but they also seem to have just been trying to justify his behaviour to me and to themselves, rather than trying to make him stop.

yeh my ex used to be nasty to his parents....

who would supervise contact?
can you arrange with third party you know or will it need to go thru contact centre ?

it is hard to get joined up approaches when you mixing adult services for him and childrens services / family support - but if informal arrangements fail or are not feasible get the adult mh team to talk to childrens services or CAFCASS to set something up .

or mabe child andfamily therapy services - can arrange supervised sessions and observe what ahappens. it all depends how it works locally .

are dc asking to see dad ?

is there an automiatic follow up in the courts further to the no mol order ? does that end up in family and child division? or are you waiting til he takes it to court for access/until divorce?

you can take it to court yourself to get a contact order formalised and residency in your sole name for now, given his instability - but you would need to speak to solicitor about this. eg residency in your name would mean you could take kids off for holiday aborad for a week to majorca to get a break -without having to get his permission... given his mh issues it might be appropriate to get an interim residency order in your name with review nin six months ? not sure how feasible that will be legeally... or if relevant.

I do not feel qualified to talk about mental health issues, anti-psychotic drugs, etc. But if, OP, your husband is receiving them from a doctor/psychiatrist, perhaps you should have a discussion with them. Though you would still have to make a decision independant of their opinion, IYSWIM.

As regards generally abusive behaviour, this thread reminds me how "hard-wired" many abusers probably are. They do not - almost by definition - have the kind of mental and emotional flexibiltity that ordinary folk have e.g. to see the bigger picture, or another person's perspective, for example. So, I think you have to have a real clarity about this that it in such a case. If it is kind of hard-wired it is very hard to reverse, unless the person has great commitment to change ...

People can change but it's a long process and it doesn't happen over night. I do believe some people can't change though to.

I knew my partner had some issues when we met, he admitted he had always got to a year with a girl then realised he never loved them chucked them and been sleeping around within days. Not normal behaviour. He also got into fights a lot, had various criminal record cautions for affray, assault and GBH. I realised that him being "close" to someone bought out his worst side, i.e, living with his mum if they argued he'd go bat shit crazy, apparentely he smashed her front door down with a shovel, literally destroyed the house and she threw him out when he was 18, he had real difficulty in loving someone but having to accept that arguing and disagreeing happens.

Anyway months in he told me he loved me and knew he'd never loved a girl before, by the year point when he'd walk away he knew he couldn't as he loved me and wanted to marry me and be with me forever but that also meant, dealing with every couples ups and downs! He became violent like he did with his mum, smashing things up in rages, occasionally hitting me, emotionally abusive. Thanks to my experience in nursing I saw that he wasn't "right" me and his mum had a long chat where she told me all these things and I put it across that he needed to get help, I stayed away for a week letting him decide what he was going to do.

Long and short of it is he had counselling for anger management, was put on a 6 month course of citalopram. I think it was more the counselling and "acceptance" of his issues that helped, he had an underlying and chronicly huge self esteem problem but he has changed and had no slip ups for 2 years now. Defintely a different man, he has relationship with his mum and his step dad now and he is just changed. The fighting has stopped, obviously the skittling from relationship to relationship has stopped and I'm glad I was there to help, obviously, I suffered along the way but even if we split up now i can honestly say i'd feel happy that I'd helped him get his life on track as I think if it wasn't for me (or any one he truly fell in love with, think any person he fell in love with would of been enough for him) i honestly would put money on him being in prison no was he was a violent person.

People can change and people can't. I'm a firm believer in one chance and if they blow it, that's it though.

cestlavie contact would probably be supervised by in-laws. they are desperate to see their grandchildren too as DH has stopped them from seeing them for last 3 months... DCs are not yet 3.5 and 21 months, they love their daddy a lot and talk about him (in particular older DC), not specifically asking for him as maybe too young but I can tell that they miss him and would love to see him. I want to encourage them to have a relationship with their father (so long as they are safe), despite his awful behaviour with me he has always been loving with the DCs (other than behaving badly towards me in front of them). Don't have any return to court anymore, have the orders for 1 year and not sure what happens thereafter. I may well end up filing for divorce by then in any case when all child matters would be sorted out.

Possibly, but only because nothing is impossible but I think very unlikely and even less likely they would be able to be non abusive with a person they had previously abused.

And if it is the honest truth that he hasn't put the dc at risk during bouts of mental illness the mental illness cannot be the cause of him abusing you.

I have a thread on here from the other night. My h was abusive for a long time now he is ok.
Yes he seems better but the impact on me is taking awhile to get over if I ever do.
Sorry cant link my thread as on iPad.
My h has alcohol issues not depression though.

I think I'd want to know whether the meds or the condition were known to give rise to this sort of behaviour. If they do, then perhaps that would explain it, but unless this is well documented I'd suspect it to be a convenient excuse.

A propensity towards DV would be something you couldn't reasonably be expected to foresee or tolerate, so if it materialises I think you've fair grounds for an exit.

Sorry, meant to add that alcohol wouldn't be an excuse, because if a bloke gets violent when lagered up, the adult, responsible and respectful thing to do is not get lagered up in the first place.

If it was meds or mental illness why can he control himself round dc?

Depressive illness doesn't drive a man to be abusive.
Nor does drink: childhood abuse; feeling inadequate; drug addiction; anger management issues, or anything similar we're sometimes told 'causes' it.

BTW I didn't pluck that out of the air, it comes from DV specialist Lundy Bancroft, who has the research data to back it up. Cestlavielife has linked to his book, which is very enlightening - it shows clearly why abusive men behave as they do, and why you cannot change them or love them into being different (sadly).

Your question was 'can they recover?'.... Well, the statistics are not encouraging. There seems to be a serious failure of empathy with them (hence you can never 'make them see'). Janelikesjam uses the same term I do for the behaviour - ie, hardwired... and if it is hard wired, recovery would be tough.

Having said that, there are abuser programmes and a very small number do recover. It's quite rare though.

I believe a two year clean slate is suggested before you even think of restarting the relationship, if ever.

It' good that you made the break OP, your life will get better from here.... Though it may be up and down for a while.

shellshock you asked for experience/answers/opinions/views.

I have all four.

No they don't ever mend their ways. You and your children are at serious risk from this man.

Stay well away. Don't give him any chance at all to harm you again, or to harm your children. Just witnessing him behave like this towards you is harmful for your children - let alone if they get in the way, or become his target.

Stay away from him.

Yes my worry is that the mental illness may be a convenient excuse for the behaviour ("because he couldn't possibly be that bad"), def not meds as he has always refused to take any.

He doesn't drink or take drugs, had no childhood abuse (privileged background and only child with very loving, caring and overly-coddling parents) - could well be feeling inadequate or anger management issues - or mental illness, personality disorder, depression or just his personality... I suppose it doesn't really matter in a way and not my problem anymore (other than he is still the father of my children).

Offred he can't control himself around the kids, but I am the target, not them (because things somehow are "my fault", at least he is not blaming kids for anything)

But seems like the consensus here aside from Gock is that they don't change or it may take a very long time and the moon and the stars all aligned for change to be possible

Seeing things as "your fault" is (one of) the attitude(s) he carries with him that makes him abusive. Because, as the great Lundy Bancroft says, abuse is all about attitudes, not anger management (or lack of), not anything else.

And it's that attitude that would be hardest for him to change. He can modify his behaviour to an extent, if he thinks it's worth it. But if that attitude's still there, you've got trouble, haven't you?

he can't control himself around the kids, but I am the target, not them

You're their mum. They need you. They love you and it will be so damaging for them to see you hurt. Which they will.

And they may not be the target now, but they are your fault? So what happens when they get older? Will they also be "legitimate targets"?

Blimey shellshock, I think you know what you have to do. What in all honesty would you advise a friend - or a sister - to do in this situation? Strike while the iron is hot. Don't leave it for a few months so that he can argue that he's a changed man. I would be filing for divorce at the first opportunity. For all your sakes.

Not all of this will apply to you, but you might find it helpful. Don't forget that if you have suffered domestic violence you will qualify for Legal Aid:

Relationship Breakdown and Divorce ? Advice and Links

It is useful if you can get to grips with the language of family law and procedure, and get an understanding of your rights, BEFORE you see a solicitor. If you are well prepared you will save time and money.

Children

If there are children involved, their welfare, needs and interests are paramount. Parents have responsibilities, not rights, in this regard. Shared residence means both parties having an equal interest in the upbringing of the children. It does not mean equal (50/50) parenting time - children are not possessions to be ?fairly? divided between separating parents.

A divorce will not be granted where children are involved unless there are agreed arrangements for finance, and care of the children (?Statement of Arrangements for Children?). It is obviously quicker and cheaper if this can be agreed but if there is no agreement, the Court will make an Order - ?Residence and Contact? regarding children, ?Financial Order? or ?Ancillary Relief? in the case of Finance. Information and links to these can be found in the Directgov link below. Residence and Contact Orders are likely to be renamed Child Arrangements Orders in future.

Always see a specialist family lawyer!

Get word of mouth recommendations for family lawyers in your area if possible. If you have children at school, ask mums you are friendly with if they know of anyone who can make a recommendation in your area. These days there are few people who don?t know of anyone who has been through a divorce or separation ? there?s a lot of knowledge and support out there!

Many family lawyers will offer the first half hour consultation free. Make use of this. Don?t just stick with the first lawyer you find ? shop around and find someone you feel comfortable with. You may be in for a long haul, so it helps if you can find a solicitor you?re happy with.

If you can?t find any local recommendations, always see a solicitor who specialises in Family Law.

You can also find out about Legal Aid and get advice on the Community Legal Advice Helpline on 08345 345 4 345
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Dl1/Directories/UsefulContactsByCategory/Governmentcitizensandrightscontacts/DG_195356

Co-operative Legal Services offer DIY/Self-Help Divorce packages, as well as a Managed Divorce service. Their fee structure is more transparent and they have a telephone advice line as well as offering really good advice on their website:
www.co-operative.coop/legalservices/family-and-relationships/

You can read advice and search by area for a family lawyer here:
www.resolution.org.uk/

You will also read good advice and find a family lawyer here:
www.divorceaid.co.uk/

Some family law solicitors publish online feedback from clients ? Google solicitors to see if you can find any recommendations or feedback.

Mediation

You will be encouraged to attend mediation. This can help by encouraging discussion about arrangements for children and finance in a structured way in a neutral setting. However, it only works if both parties are willing to reach agreement.

If there has been violence or emotional abuse, discuss this with your solicitor first. Always get legal advice, or at the very least make sure you are aware of your legal rights, before you begin mediation. This is important because while a Mediator should have knowledge of family law, and will often explain family law, they are not there to give tailored legal advice to either party - so it?s important to have that first.

Married or Living Together?

This is a key question, because if you are married, generally speaking you have greater protection when a relationship breaks down.

Legal Issues around marriage/cohabitation and relationship breakdown are explained here:
www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/relationships_e/relationships_living_together_marriage_and_civil_partnership_e/living_together_and_marriage_legal_differences.htm#Ending_a_relationship

www.advicenow.org.uk/living-together/

DirectGov advice on divorce, separation and relationship breakdown:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Divorceseparationandrelationshipbreakdown/index.htm

Legal Rights and issues around contact are further explained here:
www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/legal.php#children_relationship_breakdown
www.maypole.org.uk/

I found these guides from law firms quite informative and easy to read ? there are others of course:

www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/uploaded/documents/Surviving-Family-Conflict-and-Divorce---2nd-edition.pdf

www.terry.co.uk/hindex.html

Finance

Before you see a family law solicitor, get hold of every single piece of financial information you have access to, and take copies or make notes. Wage slips, P60s, tax returns, employment contracts, pensions and other statements ? savings, current account and mortgages, deeds, rental leases, utility bills, council tax bills, credit statements. Are there joint assets such as a home, pensions, savings, shares?

If you have no access to financial information, or you are aware that assets are being hidden from you, then obviously you will not be able to reach agreement on finances. If there are children, as you cannot divorce without adequate arrangements being agreed on finance and children, you will have to apply for a financial order anyway. If there are no children, and you are unable to agree on finances, you will also have to apply for a financial order (follow the Direct.gov links below). This seeks financial information from both parties going back 12 months. So it is in your interests to act quickly once you have made the decision to divorce.

If you are married, the main considerations of the Family Courts where parties are unable to agree a settlement are (in no particular order of priority):

1.The welfare of any minor children from the marriage.
2.The value of jointly and individually owned property and other assets and the financial needs, obligation and responsibilities of each party.
3.Any debts or liabilities of the parties.
4.Pension arrangements for each of the parties, including future pension values and any value to each of the parties of any benefit they may lose as a result of the divorce.
5.The earnings and earning potential of each of the parties.
6.Standard of living enjoyed during the marriage.
7.The age of the parties and duration of the marriage.
8.Any physical or mental disability of either of the parties.
9.Contributions that each party may have made to the marriage, either financially or by looking after the house and/or caring for the family.

CSA maintenance calculator:
www.csacalculator.dsdni.gov.uk/calc.asp

Handy tax credits calculator:
www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/payments-entitlement/entitlement/question-how-much.htm#7

Handy 5 Minute benefit check, tax and housing benefit calculators:
www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/

Parenting issues:
www.familylives.org.uk
www.theparentconnection.org.uk

Other Support for Women ? Children, Housing, Domestic Violence
www.womensaid.org.uk/ and refuge.org.uk/ - Helpline 0808 2000 247
www.ncdv.org.uk/ - Helpline 0844 8044 999
www.gingerbread.org.uk/ - Helpline 0808 802 0925
Housing www.england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/families_and_relationships/relationship_breakdown
(Note that there is usually an appropriate link on these websites for England, Wales and Scotland where the law, advice and contact information may differ.

He is a raving arsehole. Don't waste any time or energy giving him another chance; you've got him out so keep him out, prioritize your wellbeing and that of DCs. From what you've posted, the core problem is not actually his MH issues, it's his conviction that women are inferior to men and exist for men's use and benefit.
Best of luck, life is going to improve steadily now you are not having to tiptoe round his ego.

yes, of course some do.
I wouldn't give yours the chance though

Oh by the way Gock - A man who is aggressive and unpredictable and even dangerous to everyone, which it sounds like your H was, is actually far more 'fixable' than a man who is only abusive towards his female partner. The sort of men with long records of fighting, assault, petty crime, being unable to hold down jobs because they hit their employers and smash up the work place.... they are actually the ones who can be helped because their problems are more to do with poor impulse control and bad backgrounds (having grown up believing that violence and tantrumming are the only possible options when you feel angry or scared). Men who only abuse their female partners are men who have justified this abuse to themselves, who do it because they like it and feel entitled to do it to someone they have decided is their possession and their inferior.

One of the things Lundy talks about is how much control the person has. How he refrained from giving you a black eye or didn't harm the children.
So he was controlled enough to direct it at you and restrict himself to certain levels of physical abuse but certainly not so out of control he killed you.

Directing the agGression only at those closest. but you can't assume that the anger won't be turned on the dc if he doesn't really address his issues...

Eg exp completely manic in the Home smashing things attacking ds, me etc. but when admitted to psych unit docile as a lamb.... I. Ve not yet got to grips with that .... Other than to accept what lundy says that there is a lot more control and directing of the agression and awarenes Of who the agression is aimed at and the need or desire to control the other person.., eg his anger at me leaving him led to him being violent and aggressive towards me .

Entitlement is the buzz word.

I was going to start a thread about this subject. STBX is unhappy that I have had enough after many years of abuse, he keeps coming round, being extra nice, cooking meals (yes I have read the Why Does He.. book; everything ties in..). I have said I would only consider getting together again if he had abuse counselling and it worked but; a, he has had counselling for another issue and it didn't work at all and b, he agrees he has a problem but still insists it's my behaviour that triggers him, so I need counselling too..which is b*llocks as my 'behaviour' is normal human stuff like not doing housework, not reading maps well etc! My gut feeling is its pointless and it still wouldn't be a 'proper' relationship afterwards because the power dynamics would always be out of kilter IYSWIM. Reading your posts it doesn't sound promising.

Shell shocked:

Here are some points, from someone with a little knowledge in this area in RL:

1. Yes, of course people can change, even abusers. The consideration here is more 'what is the likelihood that he will change?' You've indicated that he is not yet interested in admitting his behaviour and getting help. Well, unless he gets a sprinkling of fairy dust, there's little change on the cards at this rate.
2. You and others made a good point, in that even if he did change, can the relationship recover from the damage?
3. As said earlier, it's not at all helpful to engage in joint counselling before he has got help for his behaviour. It allows abusers to apportion blame and stops them taking responsibility.
4. He needs specific help if he wants to change before you consider taking him back. As in a healthy relationships course, which targets abusive behaviour. Standard nicey nicey counselling will not cut it. Many local councils have such courses.

I wish you all the best, and strength.

"I'm the target not them" don't buy this. Ok you are the target, what's the best way to get at your separated wife who isn't speaking to you anymore? Through the children. If he cares about them enough not to hurt them he is more in control than you give him credit for isn't he?

To be blunt, stop agonising over him. Your focus needs to be your dcs. They need to feel safe, calm and loved. He is not currently conducive to their wellbeing. If he goes away, goes on meds and does the work and eventually demonstrates that he is such a person, fine. He is nowhere near doing this. So put the dcs first and let him look after himself. He's a big boy.

Pony, listen to your instincts. Your STBX is still following the standard abuser's script. He hasn't really changed at all, still saying that his abuse of you is his fault. Frankly, you can go through the motions of getting back together, being abused some more, then making the difficult decision to split, or you can save yourself time, heartache and bruises (physical or emotional) and end it now.