H and I had heated and possibly over honest confrontation in counselling, now he is not speaking to me at all

[feelokaboutit]

We have had two bad episodes like this before when he blanked me for a period of weeks following a bad argument. (Once up to 6 weeks, the other time a little less I think). When I bring this up in counselling he says yes but what was the argument about - as if what I did or said (which I don't agree with as on both occasions I was very angry with him about the way he behaved so it's kind of a swings and roundabouts situation) warranted him not speaking to me for six weeks .

We have been in counselling for a few months now but we have probably been for a total of 6 sessions together so far as often we can't go for various reasons. What has happened is that I have finally been able to say what I find so difficult, and he has basically reiterated again and again that the state of the house is the main issue for him. In fact I think he went to counselling in the hope that the house would become minimalistic and since that hasn't happened he has said that there is no point to going.

However, though I have finally been able to externalise much of what I find difficult, it doesn't actually feel like anything has changed between us.
On Monday I was very honest about how I feel. I have mentioned the possibility of separating several times now but neither the counsellor nor h take it up. Things also got pretty heated and in the same way that h finds so many things so difficult about me (I am apparently childish, messy, a victim, etc... etc...) I have also said what I find difficult (I find h bad tempered, cynical, negative, he bears grudges etc....). At the point at which he was saying that I am such a VICTIM I got upset/angry and said that to stop behaving like a victim would mean telling him to Fxxx OFF, at which he said that I do, every day (not in so many ways but I suppose we are both often distant from each other, in my case because I find him overbearing, controlling, critical and yes bad tempered).

Anyway, sorry to go on, my question is... given that it did get very heated and "over" honest in counselling, do I now have to accept that h is not talking to me at all (I ask him questions face to face and he doesn't answer at all, I can sometimes get an answer out of him if on the phone - these are all logistics questions nothing more) - IS IT IN FACT MY FAULT?????

My father in law does this sort of sulking thing. It affected my dh terribly and still does as an adult. He spends a disproportionate amount of time and energy trying to break the negative thought patterns instilled in him by his dad so that he didn't act the same way around our son. My heart breaks for you. Being stonewalled by the person who's supposed to love and care fort you most is just horrible

To talk about separating without actually doing it is very emotionally abusive, and it backfires in that the other person gets even more defensive.

So take a deep breath and start to unpack those issues (well done for owning it). If you take responsibility for stuff you KNOW you do, you are growing as a person irrespective of him. I recognise the paper thing, and think depression has a lot to do with it.
I would definitely explore a different counsellor, and do buy that Beverley Engels book.

I think coming to terms with the fact that you are not heard and you are devalued, takes much longer than people think. It is so drip drip drip that people get lost. And you can only take steps (job, courses, separation) when you have taken the focus off trying to get him to [do stuff, change] and back onto yourself, to develop a sense of self and work out what he is doing (dismissing devalueing, criticising) and holding onto the knowledge that that is his stuff, not yours. This is hard work and it takes time.

There are two totally separate issues here for me.

The sulking/silent treatment is just awful and destructive and I wouldn't stay around it for five minutes now. I once lived with someone very like you describe your DH - sulky, negative, cynical, contemptuous towards me - and it was shit. I should have got out sooner. He's probably making someone else miserable now and I feel sorry for them, I really do. These pathetic miserabalist types never change, there's always stuff wrong with them, their partners, the universe... I also think someone who goes to counselling believing its purpose is to "fix" the other person's faults is probably beyond hope. It's a repellant, self-absorbed attitude and I'd be reconsidering the future for that reason alone.

The second issue. The man I mention just happened to also to be slightly hoardy. And it did stress me out, and I hated it. He would freak out if I tried to tidy up and have a go at me for doing it "wrong" and that was one of the many things he did that made me feel shit. Before anyone starts on me for being a soulless neat-freak, my homes have always been crammed with pictures, books, colourful furniture, plates and ornaments (some of them, gulp, in front of other things) - all that is fine. I just hate "temporary" clusters of more random stuff that should have somewhere to belong, and I would really start to get uneasy if things were being "kept" on the floor. Homework on the dining table is obviously totally normal, but things like "piles of school papers and kids drawings on the floor along one part of a wall which have yet to be sorted" would bother me, I'm afraid, if repeated in all the rooms and never tackled. So I wouldn't see someone as necessarily being a "minimalist" for not wanting to live like that.

I've hesitated about writing this, because I am NOT defending the stonewalling, but I do think I know where he's coming from just on the clutter issue. From what you say about the rest of his attributes, however, it might be irrelevant now. He's reacted so poorly to the perceived problem that I'm not surprised you're not disposed to be sympathetic about it. There's not really anything you can do with someone who has a problem and isn't prepared to be constructive about asking for help with it.

Where to start....
I have also wasted some of it on magazines, accessories for me etc....

Why is it a 'waste' to buy yourself something nice? A little more self-esteem is required methinks.

He sounds exactly like my ex - and that's why he is my ex. It's all about power and control.

I kept the DCs paintings and drawings but only say one or two each year. They are adult now and not really interested in them! But they only take up one small box. You only need the odd one to look back on and laugh.

How about that, OP? Spend 1 hour tomorrow going through 1 pile - and keeping the two best?

How do you eat an elephant? 1 bite at a time. So break it down into small chunks, feel the fear and do it anyway. Just one hour, tomorrow, on one pile. Even if it is choosing definite chuck outs!

I don't think the possible slight hoarding tendency is really the OP's main problem at the moment. Her main problem is she's living with a twat who won't be constructive and nice about something he wants changed.

No, it's not her main problem but it's hard to deal with the main problem if your mind is being distracted by loads of lesser stuff.

I'm not sure the OP's mind really is being distracted by this though. He's the one who has a problem with it.

Interesting that you write: "we are back to not talking."

"WE" are not back to not talking, HE is back to not talking.

It's not you doing this.

I know MB, but she very bravely and honestly admitted is was a bit of an issue - showing instantly she is more prepared than her H to deal with stuff, and this (not him) is the key to the rest of her life.

The thing that strikes me about this is the unwillingness on both sides to simply DO SOMETHING proactive to sort this out?
If he needs a tidy house, why can't you do it? You are a SAHM, I know you are busy but I work full time, and I keep a tidy house aswell as cooking, washing, homework ect... are you struggling because of depression? If so, maybe a GP's visit is in order?
Why is he not helping you? If you are struggling and have voiced this in therapy why is he ignoring you?

Not speaking to you for 6 weeks is appalling for both your self esteem and your children's.
You both need to sit down and work out if you actually WANT to be together anymore? It sounds as if you are only together because neither of you want to be alone?
The therapy is clearly not working, I would suggest you find another therapist and go alone, one you can effectively communicate with, someone who will work with you on working out what you really want, what your fears are and work on building up your self esteem so you can make some clear choices.
Neither of you are happy, that much is clear.
I hope I have understood your situation correctly, appologies if I have mis read the situation. xx

You know, the tidy/untidy thing isn't the issue at all. It's a symbol of the battle for power this marriage has, sadly, become. If feel suddenly became The Neatest Housewife In The World, her husband would find some fault to keep justifying his tragic need to keep his wife subservient. I should imagine OP maintains her little pockets of sentimental disorder out of mild desperation not to give in entirely. It's all symbolic. Even your paper stacks, Feel, are representative of the family life you hold so dear and which your small-time dictator of a husband wants to keep ranged on a shelf, for display purposes only.

As so many respondents have felt a need to advise on domestic order, I'm going to damn well have my say. This is one area in which I'm perfectly well-adjusted, thank you very much, and I'm speaking up for the non-obsessed masses! You're all bonkers! Yes, all of you. I currently live in what some would call squalor. I've also lived, at other times, in pure expanses of white and glass. Both - and many others in between - have been of my own choosing. I fit in with what's available, affordable and achievable. I feel happy to come home, no matter which state of dis/array my home is in. If any partner saw fit to tell me how to live, I'd refer him to the Serenity Prayer.

Please do not focus on poor Feel's filing techniques, when this is only a symptom of a symptom of the real problem.

He sounds like a sexist mysoginistic wanker; he thinks you are a domestic appliance. Why the fuck is a minimalistic home all down to you anyway? If he's that fussed get him down to the dump/ Ikea pronto. What a cock.

Beautifully summarised. toptramp

I mean why the fuck is it up to us to keep a tidy house. This is why I count myself lucky living alone; there is noone to tell me what an untidy slut I am. Like I said; he's a cock. If he has standards he should bloody well pull his finger out and help you to sort out YOUR space togather. I would dump op. Not that easy I know.

I personally couldn't bring up kids in a sterile envirnoment; not possible. I love a clean house but with kids; standards have to be lowered.

If feel suddenly became The Neatest Housewife In The World, her husband would find some fault to keep justifying his tragic need to keep his wife subservient

Absolutely, but while he can whinge about this, and Feel has some emotional issues attached to the tidying issue and is being made to believe that this is the issue, if she (with his help - why not?) tidied up, that would be out of the way and, assuming he found another reason to flagellate poor Feel she would be quick to realise that the relationship is unsaveable and be more motivated to move on.

But meanwhile it is an issue which can be dealt with much easier than the real issues and there is no harm in the OP moving forward slowly while she finds her feet and unravels the problems.

Hi again. Thanks for all your thoughts and information.

I think I do need to clear the decks of all clutter as that will release energy into my situation and will help me / us to see more clearly. The problem with this is that I spend a lot of time feeling hopeless / without energy or worrying. My Dad told me I have lots of "potential" but am distracted by "emotion", I kind of know what he means!

I am sure the dynamics between h and I relate not only to the present but to both of our pasts. Not sure there is any point in trying to go down this road with h though.

I didn't exactly say that I wanted to split up in the last session but I did say that I thought that if we didn't have kids we would probably no longer be together and so in this case, how could we go on to make a relationship from this point? I also said that it was possible that if we lived separately without the "burden" of blame and who does what etc.. etc.. we might actually discover that we wanted to spend time together for the sake of just that: spending time together. I wanted to open the discussion to include these sorts of things but the counsellor concentrated on other stuff and h made a comment about me "analysing" too much.

Anyway, I think we have both damaged our relationship but I do find h difficult in lots of ways. I think I want a touchy feely communicative relationship and he wants me to do certain things. Even if I did all of them I think he would still sit on the sofa every night not communicating. I know why we got together but there are also lots of ways in which we are incompatible. He is 12 years older than me and kind of had his life totally set up when I met him. I on the other hand have never been completely independent and have this yearning to prove to myself and others that I could manage.

H probably feels betrayed. He is very annoyed that I have talked about him to friends and family members and on here. When I point out that all this started in the other long periods of being ostracised (of which there have been two), he then says but yes what was the initial argument about ??? I think in a way there are few points of emotional agreement between us. Again my Dad said that he thinks he is not the kind of person who is particularly interested in how other people feel but that he is not a bad person. I do agree with this to an extent. He (h) has always worked hard and is very much a doing kind of person. He is also very proud and at some point will decide that he no longer wants anything to do with certain people because of x, y and z which is what I think has happened between us.

So my question now is, how do I pull myself out of this weirdly humiliating state of not being spoken to and to feeling like a very naughty child, to having enough energy to get rid of clutter and really look after the house?

I suppose the counselling hasn't taken us where I wanted to be - both of us more honest and open, but at least I have had a chance to voice the things I find really difficult...

Ask yourself this question. What does he get out of ignoring you? What is motivating him?

It's difficult to maintain anger, resentment, whatever for six weeks. It's not natural. As humans we experience feelings as a continual momentum. Emotions come and go. No-one stays excited for six weeks, or disappointed for six weeks, or angry for six weeks. It would be exhausting.

He is manufacturing this. Doing it on purpose. Working hard to keep it up.

But for what? Why is he choosing this behavioiur? What's in it for him?

I know why, but I'm wondering if you do.

Your dad and your H sound all of a piece in some sense. YOur dad's view that you 'have lots of potential' - well, I was going to say 'is he your dad?' LOL but you're not a kid and it sounds like a school report, an evaluation. The implication is that you're not up to scratch, there is an inherent fault in you, and Need To Try Harder. Just a thought.

Your husband stonewalling you is to get you to behave. When you talk to him about why he is stonewalling you, why you spoke to other people when he was stonewalling you, he refers you back to the original argument ie he justifies punishing you until you learn to behave.

I would suggest you do The Freedom Programme , just to get an idea of how controlling men work and what is going on in their heads (you will also meet other women in the same situation which is in itself a great help and breaks the isolation of being on the end of a relationship like this). It's good to have this invaluable info in your armoury.

Go to counselling alone - the counsellor is not adequately trained to deal with what is presenting itself between you both by the sound of it and, anyway, you are being abused in the sessions by your H.

Its impossible to tell what is really going on with the 'mess' in your home because the view you are presenting in your posts may be the view he has, or it may not - impossible to tell. I would find a messy housemate very difficult to live with as I need things to be ordered, but I'm not mrs cleany and you wouldn't know I like things ordered to look at my house . Standards are different with different people but I don't think this is the central issue.

What is clear though is that your poor, poor children are living in this hell-hole. Please don't underestimate how appalling this is for your kids, a living hell. (I'm not going to hold back on how awful, awful, awful it is for them, I'm sorry). Please get them out of it as soon as possible. YOur husband's stonewalling of you will be creating unbearable pressure on them and, as he feels perfectly justified in doing it (though probably quite surprised how long it takes to get you to heel), it's up to you to rescue them.

just as an aside, get some work outside the home if you can - paid or unpaid. It helps to bring some balance into your life when you've got him going to great lengths to define your life and who you are.

Yes, I do sometimes think that there are similarities between h and my Dad. My Dad was definitely of the "you could always do better" variety when my sister and I were growning up, and I probably subconsciously chose h because the feeling I get from him is a similar one.

In the past h has said that when he stopped talking the other times it's because he no longer knew how to deal with me (or words to that effect). I suppose that if things have got so bad between us that thoughts of separation are being bandied about, h might have got to the point where he no longer feels there is anything to say. I suppose that what I am trying to say is that if I were to now say, okay, let's start some kind of separation procedure, he would in no way meet me half way, I anticipate that he would probably not say another proper word to me for the rest of my life (apart from what he might have to say because of the kids).

I think he thinks I have been disrespectful because he does work very hard and shoulders money problems. I on the other hand, living the life of the "child", never see any paperwork (h is not mean with money so I don't mean it in this way) so am not in charge of any knowledge, iyswim. I would definitely like to be more in control but somehow h and I are not able to do this together.

Anyway, rambling on now. I think in a way, the way he wants things to be and the way I want things to be are somehow incompatible.

Agree about the work outside the home. I already do / have done quite a lot of volunteering at my kids' school but the step from there to getting paid work seems to be a big / difficult one.

Very wise post, springy.

Feel, your last post shows quite a bit of clarity on where your husband's coming from and why you put up with him (willingness to believe your father's assessments of emotions as a nuisance). I agree with Springy that the Freedom Programme will open doors for you, especially in terms of your manner of thinking about these issues, and that a job or something similar will likewise enhance your perspective.

Have you heard the saying "You're down a hole and growing flowers in it"? It refers to the tendency some people have (me, too,) to work harder on making an intolerable situation more palatable than on getting out of it! I don't think tidying your clutter will release energy; I think it will sink yet more energy into the minutiae of H's complaint. If the stuff's bothering you too much nowadays, how about getting some nice, big boxes and labelling them broadly: something like "Children's artwork"; "Mummy's Stuff"; "Guarantees & Manuals" (whatever each pile represents) and tidying them away wholesale? Put the boxes in a cupboard for incremental filling as time goes on.

Then clear your mind by following Springy's advice.

Sorry, also forgot to say that I have been seeing a one to one counsellor for a year now but am due to stop at the end of October. This is what helped me feel strong enough to try to get h to come to joint counselling, and I definitely feel stronger in general than I did a year ago.
On Monday I will go to the joint counsellor by myself and tell her that I can't go anymore. In any case I don't think h will come again which is sad really (also am too "scared" to ask him when he is being so cold) as it is just at this point, when the not talking has started again, that we would benefit from going together.