Splitting dcs in divorce?

[thisidid]

I would appreciate some views on how I should deal with DH's and my probable separation. To cut a long story short, we have two DDs, one 5yrs and one 12 weeks old. I had an affair about a year ago, which DH has recently found out about. This has devastated him and destroyed his self esteem. I am about to lose the love of my life and I am appalled at what a fool I have been. It isn't over - yet - but I think the end is increasingly likely.

We have discussed separating but neither of us wants to be without our children. Understandably, he does not want to be the one to leave as he will lose everything. DH adores DD1, as do I. He is a wonderful father to her and has played a prominent role in her care, as I am the main breadwinner. However, DH has so far not bonded strongly with DD2 (although she is his - we did a DNA test to confirm - I knew anyway but he wanted the proof).

The main reason DH is even contemplating staying with me atm is because of DD1. I want our family to stay together more than anything else, but I have to accept that staying with DH will probably continue to ruin his self-esteem. I need to consider how to make a potential split amicable and bearable for us both, if it is really what he wants to do.

If I told him he could have main custody of DD1 and I kept DD2, what would that be like for our DDs? DD2 is so young that they haven't yet built up a strong sibling bond. The thought of not seeing DD1 every day is unbearable, I am sitting here crying as I type this, but it would help DH to move on and I feel that it is my fault we are in this position, so it is probably only fair that I take the brunt of the emotional loss.

I would ensure that I lived very close i.e. in the same town as DH and DD1 and that I saw her every couple of days, every other weekend etc. God knows how I would be able to leave her. I can't bear the thought of it. But as my DH has said to me repeatedly over the last few days, why should he be the one to leave, when he hasn't done anything wrong?

Please give me some advice, as I really don't know what to do.

Personally, like everyone else I think splitting the children is a terrible idea. Also, while it may seem OK now, how would you feel in months down the line if you dh moved a gf in and your dd was now living full time with a step mum? I know you are not even thinking ahead at the moment but you should bear the in mind.
Do you know why you had the affair? Has that been addressed? Can you salvage your relationship with counselling? I think in order to do this you need to let go of the guilt-understandable but not helping anyone.

Staying together for the sake of the children is unlikely to really work unless you genuinely rediscover the spark of your relationship and find reasons why you genuinely want to recommit to one another.

If you don't want to recommit, then there are alternatives. Could you find a house where you could both live separated single lives but share the children? I lived in a house that had been adapted for this once. It was a house that had a bedroom on a mezanine floor between the two main floors - Parent 1 had a small flat on the ground floor, Parent 2 had a small flat on the top floor, DCs had a bedroom between the two floors and slept in the same room every night but spent meal time and awake time either upstairs or downstairs depending whose turn it was. It seemed to work well but you'd need to be very very grownup about it.

Agree with those who say splitting them up is crazy. Honestly, these are your daughters and you are talking about handing one over like offering some petrol station flowers by way of apology.

That sounds really harsh but the reason I use this analogy is this: you would not even consider doing something so inappropriate and wrong headed if you didn't feel unbelievably guilty. Some people might think you deserve to be punished because you have had an affair, but that's just unhelpful.

You need to think about both your children and their interests. The elder one mustn't feel she was relinquished by her mother, particularly when she has recently been displaced by her baby sister.

Her baby sister needs a relationship with her father as well as with you. Whether he has bonded with her yet or not is irrelevant. He needs to get the chance to. Splitting up the children would be a disaster, with both of them in the future feeling like they were rejected by one of their parents.

The only way you can ensure both of your children having the relationship they deserve with both of their parents and with each other is to keep them together and to share the job of bringing them up.

I am really sorry for your situation, you must be going through hell. You made a mistake but we are all human. Don't destroy yourself and your children because of it. You wouldn't have had an affair if everything was fine.

It's a really stupid idea, sorry.

It is clear that your husband is the main caregiver to your children. You may be on maternity leave, but this is not a long term situation. The status quo tends to be maintained, so your children are unlikely to be with you most of the time. Aim for shared residence.

Your separation is not about what is best for you, or your husband. It will be about what is best for your children. it is not in their best interests to be divided up as consolation prizes.

I think you need to go for 50/50 as far as possible. If he works evenings he can have then during the day, surely? And you take over when you finish work. It sounds like you have potential to work it out so you both get decent access if you can be amicable with each other.

I'm really sorry that you are going through this. It does seem that separating at this stage is going to inflict immense pain and distress on everybody concerned, so rather than trying to plan for an imaginary break-up, should you not put that aside as what is NOT going to happen, and move heaven and earth - both of you - to repair the damage and rebuild your relationship?

The way you have described the situation almost seems as though emotional apathy will drive you and your DH apart - a sense of fatalism. I understand of course that your DH is very, very hurt by what has happened, but I think that couples counseling with reconciliation as the goal should come first.

I know of one family that did this when they split, each took one daughter each. The girls were 6 and 4 when they split. At first they maintained regular contact, but as they ended up at different schools in neighbouring counties (lived right on the county boundary) and both parents remarried and moved on they saw less and less of each other. By the time they started secondary school they barely knew each other, they were more like cousins than sisters.

One parent earned far more than the other and one daughter grew to resent which parent had 'got' her. Both had issues with feeling rejected by the other parent. Basically it was a mess.

The girls are teenagers now and things are no better. I only have that family to go on, but I think it is a bad idea. Sorry.

should you not put that aside as what is NOT going to happen, and move heaven and earth - both of you - to repair the damage and rebuild your relationship?

The way you have described the situation almost seems as though emotional apathy will drive you and your DH apart - a sense of fatalism.

This is very well put - don't resign yourself to splitting up because you think this is the punishment you deserve. Your sense of guilt is almost palpable and that you see a 'solution' to all this in giving up your daughter really demonstrates that.

Fight to save your marriage. If you do eventually split, you will feel better about it in the long run if you can honestly tell yourself you did everything you possibly could to try to put things right but it was just not possible.

NotYou is spot on. It looks as though you are letting your guilt become an obstacle to trying to fix things. Everyone deserves a second chance, including you. You owe it to all of you to fight, and if you have to seek help to deal with the fallout from your affair, do so before all is lost. x

Your DH should have both. Not because of your affair; the reason for the split is irrelevant. But because medium and long term he is the primary carer. I'm so very sorry, but that's just how it is.

op, don't accept splitting up as a fait accompli . do try and give counselling a go, even if it takes months, surely it is worth the effort rather than the upheaval of splitting up your family, which surely is the last resort.

What do you think your DH needs to build his self esteem. Did he feel emasculated being a SAHD, lower earner (just asking, not judging)

please try and find a way for you both to get some help to look hard at your marriage, shattered though it seems at the moment. you are also a new mum of a very young baby. you know you did wrong, now be a bit gentle on yourself

Sorry there is no way I would split them up, like others said can't you split time 50/50?

You both need to have a better go at saving your marriage. It is possible if you are both 100% committed to it and if you had a good marriage of a few years prior to cheating.

You sound like you are not thinking straight when you talk about splitting siblings up. You must not do that.

Your DH should have both. Not because of your affair; the reason for the split is irrelevant. But because medium and long term he is the primary carer. I'm so very sorry, but that's just how it is.

No it isn't. Sorry, but I can't see how anyone in their right mind would think that little children should be taken away from their mother. Or their father. They need both their parents.

I can see you feel very guilty about what you have done but please don't sacrifice your daughter as some sort of punishment for your behaviour- its not fair on either of your children and even offering this solution could have long ranging consequences.

Hi OP, I have been following your threads for the past week.

You have done somthing wrong and you cannot change that, but as others have said you should not have to pay for this mistake for the rest of your life. Yes you are the one that had an affair and who could potentially have ruined your marriage, BUT, your DC will always be your DC. You made a mistake in your relationship, but they are still your DC regardless of this and no matter how guilty you feel at the moment you should not be willing to walk away from either of your children. IMO a shared care arrangement would be best if your DH and you do seperate.

The decision about who the children live with should not be about who is in the wrong. It should be in the best interests of the children and if they have a close and loving relationship with both of you then you should work together to ensure that this is maintained.

What I would say is that it is very early days for you and your DH. If I was in your position I would be fighting for my marriage. Stop thinking about all the what ifs at the moment and concentrate on your relationship. Some relationships do survive after one partner is unfaithful. Your marriage is not necessarily over.

I really hope that people who have a crush considering an affair read your posts and see how utterly destructive an affair can be.
I m not trying to kick you when your down relationships can come back from this it is hard but worth it.
Please dont split up your children I lived with mum and brother with dad when my parents split.
my brother has always feltmy mum abondoned him and it has affected all his relationships.
Please if there is love fight for your marriage and if worst comes to worst shared contact. Good luck

I just want to add...no matter what I did wrong, I would never ever voluntarily allow my DH to be primary carer to our DD.

I think down the line your DD would be devastated that you did not fight for her, even if you were the one to have an affair. The affair will not be so relevant in 5, 10, 15 years time. But your input as a parent will be.

OP you cannot simply decide to split children between you as if they are possessions. You both need to forget about yourselves for a while and accept that your children's needs and well-being are far, far more important than the emotional turmoil you are both going through.

You are both obviously in a terrible state to be thinking along these lines. I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but really you both need to grow up a bit and start informing yourself about the process you are about to embark on.

If either one of you or both of you feel your marriage cannot be saved (have you tried Relate?) then here is some information you both need to know right now.

For a start, when children are involved you don't just get a rubber-stamped divorce. You have to complete statements of arrangements for children and finance, which have to be approved by the court before a decree nisi is issued.

Any statement of arrangements which splits siblings in the way you are describing is highly unlikely, in my view, to get past first base.

If he leaves it is simply not the case that he will "lose everything". There will be a financial settlement which takes into account your joint assets, earnings, future earnings, respective abilities to recover your financial positions, mortgage capacity etc.

You both need to see solicitors. Then I would advise you to embark on a course of Mediation. It will help you to understand the process and the pitfalls. It will encourage you both to look at the issues you face in a neutral environment and in a structured way.

You will both be reminded that the number one priority is your children - not your feelings, not your rights, but your responsibilities as parents to two young children.

You can find both specialist family lawyers in your area, and trained family mediators here:

www.resolution.org.uk/

You can read more about the process here, when you feel able to:

Relationship Breakdown and Divorce ? Advice and Links

It is useful if you can get to grips with the language of family law and procedure, and get an understanding of your rights, BEFORE you see a solicitor. If you are well prepared you will save time and money.

Children

If there are children involved, their welfare, needs and interests are paramount. Parents have responsibilities, not rights, in this regard. Shared residence means both parties having an equal interest in the upbringing of the children. It does not mean equal (50/50) parenting time - children are not possessions to be ?fairly? divided between separating parents.

A divorce will not be granted where children are involved unless there are agreed arrangements for finance, and care of the children (?Statement of Arrangements for Children?). It is obviously quicker and cheaper if this can be agreed but if there is no agreement, the Court will make an Order - ?Residence and Contact? regarding children, ?Financial Order? or ?Ancillary Relief? in the case of Finance. Information and links to these can be found in the Directgov link below. Residence and Contact Orders are likely to be renamed Child Arrangements Orders in future.

Always see a specialist family lawyer!

Get word of mouth recommendations for family lawyers in your area if possible. If you have children at school, ask mums you are friendly with if they know of anyone who can make a recommendation in your area. These days there are few people who don?t know of anyone who has been through a divorce or separation ? there?s a lot of knowledge and support out there!

Many family lawyers will offer the first half hour consultation free. Make use of this. Don?t just stick with the first lawyer you find ? shop around and find someone you feel comfortable with. You may be in for a long haul, so it helps if you can find a solicitor you?re happy with.

If you can?t find any local recommendations, always see a solicitor who specialises in Family Law.

You can also find out about Legal Aid and get advice on the Community Legal Advice Helpline on 08345 345 4 345
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Dl1/Directories/UsefulContactsByCategory/Governmentcitizensandrightscontacts/DG_195356

Co-operative Legal Services offer DIY/Self-Help Divorce packages, as well as a Managed Divorce service. Their fee structure is more transparent and they have a telephone advice line as well as offering really good advice on their website:
www.co-operative.coop/legalservices/family-and-relationships/

You can read advice and search by area for a family lawyer here:
www.resolution.org.uk/

You will also read good advice and find a family lawyer here:
www.divorceaid.co.uk/

Some family law solicitors publish online feedback from clients ? Google solicitors to see if you can find any recommendations or feedback.

Mediation

You will be encouraged to attend mediation. This can help by encouraging discussion about arrangements for children and finance in a structured way in a neutral setting. However, it only works if both parties are willing to reach agreement.

If there has been violence or emotional abuse, discuss this with your solicitor first. Always get legal advice, or at the very least make sure you are aware of your legal rights, before you begin mediation. This is important because while a Mediator should have knowledge of family law, and will often explain family law, they are not there to give tailored legal advice to either party - so it?s important to have that first.

Married or Living Together?

This is a key question, because if you are married, generally speaking you have greater protection when a relationship breaks down.

Legal Issues around marriage/cohabitation and relationship breakdown are explained here:
www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/relationships_e/relationships_living_together_marriage_and_civil_partnership_e/living_together_and_marriage_legal_differences.htm#Ending_a_relationship

www.advicenow.org.uk/living-together/

DirectGov advice on divorce, separation and relationship breakdown:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Divorceseparationandrelationshipbreakdown/index.htm

Legal Rights and issues around contact are further explained here:
www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/legal.php#children_relationship_breakdown
www.maypole.org.uk/

I found these guides from law firms quite informative and easy to read ? there are others of course:

www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/uploaded/documents/Surviving-Family-Conflict-and-Divorce---2nd-edition.pdf

www.terry.co.uk/hindex.html

Finance

Before you see a family law solicitor, get hold of every single piece of financial information you have access to, and take copies or make notes. Wage slips, P60s, tax returns, employment contracts, pensions and other statements ? savings, current account and mortgages, deeds, rental leases, utility bills, council tax bills, credit statements. Are there joint assets such as a home, pensions, savings, shares?

If you have no access to financial information, or you are aware that assets are being hidden from you, then obviously you will not be able to reach agreement on finances. If there are children, as you cannot divorce without adequate arrangements being agreed on finance and children, you will have to apply for a financial order anyway. If there are no children, and you are unable to agree on finances, you will also have to apply for a financial order (follow the Direct.gov links below). This seeks financial information from both parties going back 12 months. So it is in your interests to act quickly once you have made the decision to divorce.

If you are married, the main considerations of the Family Courts where parties are unable to agree a settlement are (in no particular order of priority):

1.The welfare of any minor children from the marriage.
2.The value of jointly and individually owned property and other assets and the financial needs, obligation and responsibilities of each party.
3.Any debts or liabilities of the parties.
4.Pension arrangements for each of the parties, including future pension values and any value to each of the parties of any benefit they may lose as a result of the divorce.
5.The earnings and earning potential of each of the parties.
6.Standard of living enjoyed during the marriage.
7.The age of the parties and duration of the marriage.
8.Any physical or mental disability of either of the parties.
9.Contributions that each party may have made to the marriage, either financially or by looking after the house and/or caring for the family.

CSA maintenance calculator:
www.csacalculator.dsdni.gov.uk/calc.asp

Handy tax credits calculator:
www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/payments-entitlement/entitlement/question-how-much.htm#7

Handy 5 Minute benefit check, tax and housing benefit calculators:
www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/

Parenting issues:
www.familylives.org.uk
www.theparentconnection.org.uk

Other Support for Women ? Children, Housing, Domestic Violence
www.womensaid.org.uk/ and refuge.org.uk/ - Helpline 0808 2000 247
www.ncdv.org.uk/ - Helpline 0844 8044 999
www.gingerbread.org.uk/ - Helpline 0808 802 0925
Housing www.england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/families_and_relationships/relationship_breakdown
(Note that there is usually an appropriate link on these websites for England, Wales and Scotland where the law, advice and contact information may differ.

Now obviously the above is written from a woman's point of view, but the information and advice in the websites apply to both men and women.

One final point. As others have said, marriages can survive these traumatic events, but you both need to be prepared to come to terms with what has happened. There is no point going on about whose fault it is. Nowadays there is no such thing as "fault" in divorce. Perhaps if you both started to understand what you and your children are all likely to lose, and compare it with what you will all gain if you can make your marriage work, you might start thinking differently.

I want our family to stay together more than anything else, but I have to accept that staying with DH will probably continue to ruin his self-esteem.

This is about more than his self-esteem. It's about your children's welfare. Neither of you will be addressing their needs while he continues to punish you, and in response you continue to prioritise his "self esteem" over your children's welfare.

Hi

I don't really have any advice, but courts can split siblings if it is in the best interests of the child. It is exceptionally rare (and may be criticised/overturned) but see the 2010 case of H v H. It is a Scottish case so I'm not sure whether there is any similar English authority. It certainly caused a stir. The difference was that the children were old enough to express views which were taken into account - yours aren't.

It sounds like you and your DP have been through an incredibly hard time. I really hope everything can work out for you all.

My thoughts on reading this are you need time to take a breath ,thinking about dividing your kids up like this is not a good idea.

Your starting point seems to be your guilt and how to make it up to your husband.This to me suggests 2 things one you are starting from the wrong position every decision should be made in the childrens best interests,secondly you are obviously still heavily emotionally invested in your husband.

Could you try counselling,to explore if your marriage is salvagable,failing that it would give you some space to make the right decisions for the future.

You made a mistake,a big mistake you know that it is done .You don't need to keep making them doing one bad thing doesn't make you a bad person or a bad mother.Stop punishing yourself.Use this energy to make the best decisions for your kids.

A couple of posters have mentioned the impact that a mother leaving has has on them. The feelings of rejection and abandonment. I wonder how children of fathers who've left feel about their dads?

I feel quite strongly that the siblings should stay together. I was split up from my sister and kept with my brother. I have almost no relationship with my DSis but very close to my brother.

You say you work FT, DH PT. what happens for nights? Who deals with the kids then? Weekends? It's not that clear cut IMO.

You need to speak to a third party and sort this out properly, not make rash decisions.

Thank you all. Am thinking clearer today. I can see what a terrible and damaging thing it would be to split them up, especially for DD1.

It isn't the end of the road yet for DH and I. We actually do still love each other, and throughout all the pain and recriminations of the last few days we have had some amazing, wonderful moments of closeness that have given us some hope that we may be able to salvage this. I am not giving up yet.