is my marriage over?

[cantfindamnnickname]

History - We've been married 7 years, together 13. We had our first ds within a year of being together, we have always lived together.
We then went on to have another 2 DS's, we are comfortably off, we dont struggle, we have a nice home, cars, caravan etc etc

Good points - we are financially good
we have 3 lovely children
our sex life is good
he works very hard and provides for us financially
I dont want for anything
I have my own money (work - good job) and can afford to buy stuff that I fancy.
he can be very caring/loving/affectionate

but I have come to a point in my life where Im not sure i want to be with him anymore.

The negatives are:
his jealousy, he thinks everyone I ever speak to (male or female) wants to get me into bed,
he can be quite aggressive; he has never hit me and I dont think he would but he certainly shouts and gets cross at me and the children
he is very black and white
he doesnt stop me doing anything but he is very clear about what he "expects"
he works all the time, we rarely have holidays and when we go in caravan its a very stressful time as he expects everything to be right and gets frustrated if its not
if he is not at work he is in the pub, he goes to the pub Friday night, Sat night and Sun afternoon (he doesnt object if i go out - he makes sure he is home for the children)
I think he is a twat when he has had a drink
There have been a few incidents over the years that stick in my mind and they taint everything - I had DS2 and I had mastitis - I was very poorly, i phoned him and asked him to come home from the pub - I have never done this - he didnt come straight home - he was hours later.
I had a miscarriage - he wasnt much of a support - my mum was
he called his own son a fucking cunt the other day
If I raise anything with him he says well you know where the door is.

I have told him at the time about this unacceptable behaviour and we have had big rows.

The question is am I strong enough to walk away - do I want to? Can i fix this? Will i be happy on my own or staying.

Im really struggling at the moment and I need some mm help to get my head a bit clearer.

cant - From my experience, this is probably going to feel otherworldly for now, and as if there's little you can hold on to in terms of certainty. Also, that sometimes the opportunity for change doesn't come with a bang, but with something more like resignation and a sense of, "Wow - is this it?"

I'm not saying leave - I'm with your mum on this one. It is your decision to make. What you can be certain of is that you are empowered to make those decisions - one way or the other.

However, I think you are right that what you are contemplating if you stayed in your marriage would make neither of you happy. That's your intuition talking again, of that I'm sure, and it is a very wise ally to have.

Well, you could try just doing the things you want and greeting any sulks of his with cheerful indifference/a polite but friendly reminder that he is not your owner and not entitled to unquestioning obedience from you. If he's a basically OK human being who has absorbed sexist attitudes (that the woman in a marriage is the inferior and servant of the man) then he might actually shape up. If he's not a good human being, his response will be aggression in some shape or form. It might be passive - he will make a mess in the house, if he is looking after the DC they might go hungry or be unwashed (unless he's really horrible they won't come to serious harm). Or it might be more direct; verbal abuse, waking you up to shout at you, removing your keys/money/phone so you can't go out, or creating some sort of drama or crisis every time you go out - or indeed physical attacks.

Your husband is an alcoholic. It is not - oh, he goes to the pub most nights... Going to the pub, being as drunk as much as he is - alcoholism. I think you need to present him with an ultimatum and see what his response is - trust me it will be an initial "f* off", but then he may see sense. You have acommodated him too much and I agree with others, he is a bully and there is only one way to handle a bully - push back!
My husband is basically an ok guy but a bit pig-headed and when I have had enough I have tossed him out, he then comes back, tail between his legs a couple of days later. You have to let them know when they have crossed the line and then back it up. Good luck.

We have chatted some more his and his answer is that he will sell business and never go to pub again

he says i socialise too much with hobby people and that its not right - 3 times in 18 months?

I have made him feel like worst father and husband in the world

He is blaming you for his deficiencies. That's wrong.

"his answer is to give up work and sell the house and he will stop going to pub and sit at home all weekend with me."

Which is no answer because it's so ridiculous. He's still trying to avoid the problem and isn't taking you seriously. Ignoring it hasn't worked & the bullying/verbal abuse has failed so he puts up a stupid suggestion of selling businesses and moving houses etc. When that doesn't work he tries to deflect the blame onto you... (and going out 3 times in 18 months makes a hermit look postively gregarious). You haven't 'made him feel like the worst husband and father in the world'... all you've done is ask him to behave like a decent human being. Of course he's leaving it to you because, like all insecure men that resort to bullying, he's a coward.

You're now at a point in this stand-off where either he caves or you do.... so stay stong because, if you cave, your life will be even more miserable than before.

Well I have made one decision and that is that I will not give up my hobby and I will not stop socialising with them either - it makes me happy. I am not prepared to give up this - I feel like I have given up a lot in my marriage already - this is non negotiable.

As for the drinking - I do not want him to never go to a pub again - I want him to think shall I go to the pub for a couple of drinks or shall I go out with the family somewhere - he says that I never suggest anything - I do, he is just not interested in my suggestions. (because they do not involve the pub!)

He is acting as though all this is a big shock - we have had the conversation about the pub so many bloody times its untrue.

Apart from telling me he is selling the business and never going out again he is asking me what he has to do - I dont want to tell him what to do - thats not my job - I am not here to tell anyone what to do (except my children obviously)

He is trying to push me to make a decision now

I am wavering between I owe it to both of us and our children to try and make it work - I should give him the benefit of the doubt and I may regret it if i dont.

or is it too little too late and there is nothing left to save.

How many times has he promised to improve his behaviour and not done so, though? If the answer is 'loads' then he thinks that all he's got to do is sob-and-sorry a bit and normal service will be resumed. If you feel prepared to give him one last chance, set a time limit on it and if there's no improvement, put him out.

So he has come home.tonight and told.the children he has stopped working.because it causes too many arguments

also wants to know if i have made a decision and i am keeping him hanging

he is angry - i can tell by his demeanour

What a total arse. Stopped working because it causes arguments. He probably doesn't want to pay any maintenance. You poor thing. I really feel for you.

Tell him your decision is that the marriage is over and you want him to leave. He's demonstrated very clearly that he is a selfish prick who is quite happy to make you and the children suffer, so don't waste any more time on him and what he wants; file for divorce straight away.
You will manage just fine without him and life will be so much better for you and DC.

Well we have had more chats - he hasnt quit his job, he is considering whether or not to carry on within his own business or sell everything and just go work for someone. He says he was considering his options.

It has obviously hit him very hard, but I think I am finally making him see how bad things are and how unhappy I am. I told him I would have left a long time ago if we didnt have children. I told him I am angry that I have been telling him these problems for so long and it has taken me threatening to leave before he considered doing anything about it and that Im not sure if its too late for grand gestures. He says he will do anything and that he doesnt want to loose his family.

I have agreed to go away for a couple of nights as a family, primarily to give the children a nice break before school starts.

We do seem to be going round in circles though, we have talked about practically what would happen if I left and i think he was shocked that I had actually considered these things and seriously, ie i have worked out how much i would need to buy my own place. I have told him about contact with the children - I would never stop him seeing the children etc.

He says he feels like he is on trial until I make a decision and that I hold all the cards and the power and he doesnt like that.
I have told him my hobby and socialising is non-negotiable and that he needs to deal with it.

In my head I have decided that I will give this until the second week in October and if things have not improved then Im off.

But he has phoned me this afternoon asking whether he can go to the pub after work!!!! I have told him I am not his keeper, I do not tell him what to do - that is his choice.

But clearly this does not bode well!!

He sounds utterly selfish and immature. Why on earth would he lie to his own children that he has left his job because of arguments? That just smacks of emotional blackmail, using his own kids. The same ones he uses vile swear language with. What is wrong with someone if they can even think those words about their own child AND then say them and not see they have done anything wrong?!

Sorry but he sounds disgusting and I fail to see why you are even considering his ridiculous and immature efforts to sort things out. He's being a melodramatic bully and yea I BET he doesn't like feeling he is not in control, he's reacting like a spoilt child.

His first move after all of this is to carry on exactly what he wants to do which is go to the pub but try to shift the responsibility onto you by 'asking permission'? Childish. Really really childish. Yea looks like he has no intention of chaing whatsoever.

Honestly though I am still shocked by the C**t incident..I just cannot imagine being around anyone who would say something like that to my child and his own father? Urgh. Really really foul.

Good luck OP. I would only say I doubt the situation will get better over time, if anything it tends to get worse. Not all of this will apply to you but it might help you to do a bit of reading and prep in the meantime:

Relationship Breakdown and Divorce ? Advice and Links

General

Read everything you can get your hands on. Get familiar with the language of family law and procedure and try to get an understanding of your rights BEFORE you see a solicitor. Get word of mouth recommendations for family lawyers in your area if possible. If you have children at school, ask mums you are friendly with if they know of anyone who can make a recommendation in your area. These days there are few people who don?t know of anyone who has been through a divorce or separation ? there?s a lot of knowledge and support out there!

If there are children involved, their interests will always come first. It is the children?s right to maintain a meaningful relationship with the non-resident parent (NRP) ? not the other way around. Children are not possessions to be ?fairly? divided between separating parents. Parents have no rights, only responsibilities. A divorce will not be granted where children are involved unless there are agreed arrangements for finance, and care of the children (?Statement of Arrangements for Children?). It is obviously quicker and cheaper if this can be agreed but if there is no agreement, the Court will make an Order (?Residence and Contact? regarding children, ?Financial Order? or ?Ancillary Relief? in the case of Finance)

Many family lawyers will offer the first half hour consultation free. Make use of this. Don?t just stick with the first lawyer you find ? shop around and find someone you feel comfortable with. You may be in for a long haul, so it helps if you can find a solicitor you?re happy with.

If you can?t find any local recommendations, always see a solicitor who specialises in Family Law. You can search by area here:

www.resolution.org.uk/

You can also find family law solicitors here:

www.lawsociety.org.uk/areasoflaw/view=areasoflawdetails.law?AREAOFLAW=Family%20law&AREAOFLAWID=36

Check your eligibility for Legal Aid here:

legalaidcalculator.justice.gov.uk/calculators/eligiCalc?execution=e1s1

Some family law solicitors publish online feedback from clients ? Google solicitors to see if any recommendations or feedback exists.

Mediation

You will be encouraged to attend mediation. If there has been violence or emotional abuse, discuss this with your solicitor first. Always get legal advice, or at the very least make sure you are aware of your legal rights, before you begin mediation.

Married or Living Together?

This is a key question. If you are married, generally speaking you have greater protection when a relationship breaks down.

Legal Issues around marriage/cohabitation and relationship breakdown are explained here:

www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/relationships_e/relationships_living_together_marriage_and_civil_partnership_e/living_together_and_marriage_legal_differences.htm#Ending_a_relationship

static.advicenow.org.uk/files/benefits-and-livingtogether-2010-11-1161.pdf

DirectGov advice on divorce, separation and relationship breakdown:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Divorceseparationandrelationshipbreakdown/index.htm

Legal Rights are further explained here:

www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/legal.php#children_relationship_breakdown

I found these guides from law firms quite informative and easy to read ? there are others of course:

www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/uploaded/documents/Surviving-Family-Conflict-and-Divorce---2nd-edition.pdf

www.terry.co.uk/hindex.html

Finance

Before you see a family law solicitor, get hold of every single piece of financial information you can, and take copies. Wage slips, P60s, tax returns, employment contracts, pensions and other statements ? savings, current account and mortgages, deeds, rental leases, utility bills, council tax bills, credit statements. Are there joint assets such as a home, pensions, savings, shares?

Handy tax credits calculator:

taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk/Qualify/DIQHousehold.aspx

Handy 5 Minute benefit check, tax and housing benefit calculators:

www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/

Child Maintenance Calculator:

taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk/Qualify/DIQHousehold.aspx

Further advice and support

www.maypole.org.uk/

www.womensaid.org.uk/

www.gingerbread.org.uk/

england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/families_and_relationships
(Re Shelter, if you are not in England follow the link at the top)

Thanks for that olgaga - I am actually a family solicitor

but still very helpful

Hi, then you will no doubt know you need some objective assistance of one sort or another! There's a world of difference when it's happening to you. Don't be red-faced, he sounds like a proper loser but it wouldn't have been this obvious years ago!

Can I fix this - no - because you can't fix his life, only yours.

Well he didnt go to the pub we talked some more and I have told him I dont know what the answer is - I am not prepared to remain as things are, the options are I leave or he sorts it out.

He understands this and I have told him he neesd to think about whether making the changes will make him happy because if he is misreable then we wont be happily married - he needs to be honest with himself.

We have talked about the finances and how we would split them, practical arrangements - I have made it very clear I would never stop the relationship with the children whatever happened.

He has told me that if things are no better by Oct half term then he will pay me off and I can go ahead with my plan - this is what I had in my head anyway.

We accept that we are both very different and have grown up in very different ways which affects how we view things.

I dont honestly believe that we have a future - Im not sure how we would move forward.

He gave me a hug in bed this morning but because i wasnt very keen he got all stroppy with me.

I think you have made up your mind and he knows it. If you have left things until October I would start preparing now. You will probably have a difficult time between now and then, and I hope things don't get nasty.

"He has told me that if things are no better by Oct half term then he will pay me off and I can go ahead with my plan"

This smacks of him giving you permission . I'd bring your plan forward rather than waste another six weeks of your life.

What does he mean, "pay you off?" You're not an employee. And what's with the October half term deadline? It's like you've been put on notice or something.

Well he seems to have had an epihany - he accepts that he has not been the husband and father he should have been over the last few years. He is very sorry about his behaviour and wants to do anything to put it right.

He has said he will never go to the pub again and he will try to make sure we have more of a work/life balance.

I am still undecided however, i cant work out in my head whether I should stay and give it a go, even though I am very angry at him for allowing things to get to this point, I dont think that he wil sustain those changes long term, it will probably lead to arguments because i have already said I will not change my behaviour so he will have to accept it, he feels like he is on trial and that the first time he does something "wrong" it will end in an argument/me leaving. He saus that if i want to go then he will do everything to help and that he would rather finish now and remain amicable for the children and us than carry on and risk upsetting each other even more.

Or do I go, I would be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want (within reason with kids!) I would still be able to continue with my hobby, he has already said he will have the children on those nights.

Im so messed up - I cant work out what I really want.

For epiphany read 'backed into a corner'. If you read your original post again you describe a long-standing problem where any attempts from you to raise the problem are met with 'you know where the door is'. I agree with you about his inability to sustain changes long term and suspect all he's doing now is calling your bluff. Rather than waiting for the next episode and the next argument why not suggest a trial separation? See how amicable he actually is, how you get on apart for a while and give yourself time to think.

Well I suggested a trial separation and he said he didnt want this - he doesnt want to be kept hanging on until I have made a decision.

I have told him it is over and I want out but I am wavering between being positive about this to thinking I am making the worse decision ever and Im ruining my kids lives.

Maybe its not that bad, maybe we can work it out, maybe now he realises how bad it has been and he will do something about it.

Or maybe he will just become resentful and hate me thinking I have stopped him doing stuff and then we will end up arguing and hating each other.

I think about all the stuff I can go and do, ie my hobby, have friends around and I get a little excited but then I think well hang on, I am doing some of those things anyway, is it really that bad to want to walk away when I have lots of nice things

Oh god this is so hard

Just to update everyone that posted here (and thank you for doing so)

I went to see a counsellor who really helped me clarify my thoughts, I was so muddled I couldnt think clearly and wasnt getting any space to do so.

The first thing he said to me was "your husband sounds very controlling of you" and it was like a lightbulb going off! I have told dh I am leaving, the kids have been told and I have had an offer accepted on a house and am waiting for it all to complete - hopefully 4 weeks or so.

I feel myself again, I feel stronger but cant wait to get out of the home, we are still living together. Last night I said something he didnt like about money and he threatened to pay a hit man (twat) when I pulled him up on it he just said I should know better that he wouldnt really do it and I made him angry (twat again). Im not in any danger, he wont hurt me but he cant understand why I am walking away, he doesnt get it at all. I also cant believe I find myself in a situation where I am being controlled, it is so far away from me its untrue.

Im excited about the future. Although I still keep being told by my mum that I am making a mistake and that its all happened very quickly (no, it hasnt I just dont tell you how I feel or whats going on)