Problems with my brother and how he interreacts with other family members - need advice

[knittingblanketeer]

Have name changed for this, as I mention security details at my dad's place, just in case anyone anyone "knew" me from my normal posting name. Am a long term MNer.

This will be long as I will try to put in as much back story as possible. My brother and I are in our late 40s/early 50s. My dad is a fit and healthy 75. My mother, to whom my brother was close (as was I) died earlier this year. She had had a long and happy marriage to my dad - but because she had been ill for a number of years (and we were actually wanting her to die for many reasons - not least the fact that she was absolutely miserable as a result of her illness), my dad is the one who has probably "coped" the best out of all of us.

Db has always had issues with his temper but normally this manifested more towards me. He also has a issue with me because I don't see enough of him and don't put enough of an effort into being friends with his wife. As a result, he thinks we are a dysfunctional family. Dh and I wonder if he has an idealised view of how families "should" operate, partly because all of our extended family are in other countries, so there was only ever our nuclear family unit in this country.

Dh thinks if anything, the dysfunctionality is in how often we meet as a family: there is a long standing tradition of going to my parents' place for a Sunday night dinner every week. Db still goes every week, but my family (as in dh, ds and me) now only go once a fortnight. Tbh, one of the reasons we reduced the number of times we went was 'cos db can be very difficult at times (pontificates, is always right) so we reduced how often we exposed ourselves to it. We love seeing my dad though - both my parents were great company and my dad has taken over my mother's mantle of cooking great meals.

When I was younger, we went through a stage of always being on tenterhooks as to whether my dad and db were going to argue. My mum had a way of managing to smooth over the water - but there were many times when I and his girlfriend or wife at the time would escape to the kitchen while he vented.

I need to add that db can be charming and has a lot of lovely friends (although even some of them would acknowledge he has issues).

He is now married to a very nice girl and they have 2 very young children.

There was a blow up at dinner on Sunday night over nothing - but mostly directed at me. My dad had a heated discussion with him in the kitchen telling he need to address his anger issues (normally dad tried to avoid confrontation) and at one point told him to look into the mirror and see his face as the expression on it was venomous. Db wants me to have lunch with him "to save the family" - but I've still decide if I want to as he's mistaking me for someone who gives a damn . not least because I'm actually scared of his anger. If I do have lunch with him, it'll be in a public place and even possibly with a friend placed strategically in the same place to rescue me if at some point I get too distressed.

However, that is not directly why I am writing this extended post. My dad had dinner with db last night (which he does most Tuesdays). He is going away tonight for 5 or 6 weeks to visit family and friends abroad. He told db that he was happy for him to use his place (much bigger than the flat that db lives in, with a lovely garden for the kids to play in).

He asked him not to switch the alarm on as it is not working properly and often goes off in the "other" hallway (big old house sub-divided into flats - although my parents' place has its own entrance). Db flipped at this and (apparently - all this is from my dad's description) started berating my dad, saying that he would switch it on and if dad disabled it some other way then he's put in another alarm system. It all got a bit unpleasant.

As dad was leaving and getting into the (small) lift, SIL was trying to apologise to him for db. Dad was telling her that he does listen to db's advice but that he doesn't always have to take it. Db heard this and then got into the lift with dad and started berating him again and saying if he didn't put an alarm in, he's have to visit the house every day to check that it was OK. He was physically intimidating my dad in the small lift and dad told him that he considered what he was doing was mental abuse, although he didn't add that he was (and he was) actually also scared that db's anger could also turn physical.

At this point, db said that he would never see dad again and that he would ensure that he never saw the grandchildren again.

Dad rang me this morning obviously quite distressed. He's always said (because he has been advised by his own friends and family) that he would not get directly involved with the issues between db and me (although db thinks he should). But now he's ringing me asking for advice as to what to do.

He doesn't want to leave on the plane with a heavy heart :(

My dad is coming over later. What do I say to him?

Should add that it is db who thinks I don't see enough of him and his wife. I am happy with the amount of contact. Ironically, if he didn't pressurise and suggest that I am being mean and ungrateful for not "welcoming" his wife more then I probably would be more relaxed about seeing more of him.

I would say that your Dad should let your brother calm down while he is away. Don't contact him at all. I really doubt, given how much value your brother seems to place on contact with family, that he really means do disown your Dad over this.

On the other hand the anger issues are another thing and I am not sure what to say about that. I would be frightened of him too. Is he like that with his wife? Where do you think all this anger comes from?

I have no idea what to suggest but your brother is a bully and it sounds like you're all terrified of him! What has made him throw his weight around like this? He needs to be made aware that his anger issues are precisely what is causing the destruction of the family... your poor old Dad!

Good point about the contact and the imposrtnace db places on family. That'll reassure dad. At the moment he's planning on writing him a letter saying he's more than happy for him to use the house - but that it is his house and that he should respect his wishes.

Not sure if db is like that with his wife. She is very good at "managing" him.

I have no idea where this anger come from - but it has always been there, even when he was young. I've never seen evidence of it in either of my parents. Having said that, as a family, we are all pretty "intense".

I don't think your Dad should write him a letter - your DB sounds like the sort to twist anything said. Unless the letter said "You have serious anger issues and your treatment of me was entirely inappropriate. I expect an apology and I recommend that you seek immediate help", I wouldn't send it.

Also, you need to have a united front. When he starts off, you all need to tell him his behaviour is unacceptable and walk away - I suspect your Dad sees this now. If he gets physical - call the police. Otherwise you are enabling him to continue as there are no consequences for his actions.

Have talked with a friend who knows everyone involved. She doesn't think that db would ever get physical - although that doesn't excuse him making people scared that he might :(

She did say that we as a family were all highly opinionated - but that db was way at the wrong end of the spectrum in terms of "allowing" people differing opinions.

She thinks he's just extremely huffy and that he is very highly strung (as was my mum but she learnt to control it) and that he doesn't realise the impact he has on others - although that's not an excuse.

I can see your brother point of view

i would not like to be a charge of house with a broken alarm
as that invalidates the insurance
which mean if the house get broken into ( much more likely now) it would up your brother fault and he would feel like he would have to pay for what has got taken

very unfair of your dad to go away and dump this on your brother

as for you all being opinionated well you sound as bad as each other maybe you should all go to anger management classes as a family

Insurance is not based on the alarm being switched on (my dad is the sort of person who would make sure of that - sometimes he drives me mad with his need to "dot the i's and cross the ts) so it wouldn't invalidate it.

Dh did wonder if that was what db was concerned about - and I was going to raise that with dad when he come over. However, dad is not making db responsible for the house. He is expecting him to lock it up if and when he leaves the place after using it (in the same way that I would lock it up if we too went over while he was away).

As for us all being opinionated - I've never heard of that being a reason for needing anger management classes! We enjoy debating. There is only one member of the family who ends up frightening others.

The friend I talked to did say that db had got more extreme in recent years. She did however point out that db won't ever address it until he recognises he has a problem. The only thing that dad can do is tell him how db makes him feel and that he has the right not to be distressed or fearful.

But to pick up Tiago's point, we perhaps do need to agree a strategy and to walk away/leave when his behaviour is unacceptable. Difficult when it is a family dinner and he is one of the guests, but otherwise how is he ever going to understand the impact of his actions?

I think people like this need to SEE what they're like. I would be very tempted to record an evening, and then later show him just how aggressive he is.

Tiago is right, until there are consequences (that he is aware of - unless you've told him exactly WHY you've cut down to once a fortnight then that doesn't count) he won't have any incentive to change.

Does said brother work & manage to control his temper there?

He sounds very strange tbh.

If he doesn´t want to stay at your Dad´s place when the alarm doesn´t work surely he could just say no thanks??!!

And/Or offer to get the alarm fixed?

TBH, I´d be stopping the Sundays altogether & getting Dad to you once a week.

Brother I´d be avoiding for the forseeable future & telling him why.

Not sure how we could record it - I'll have a think about potential ways....

Chitchatathome - you're right, we've never told him that that was the primary reason that we cut back to fortnightly. Dad knows, but not db.

If your DB is getting more extreme, then as your father gets older and more frail, you may end up with a very unpleasant problem of DB bullying/abusing father (which seems to have started already).

It is very hard to try and put boundaries in place after years of doing things a certain way, but I think you have to now. That means you tell your DB why you won't do dinner every week when he asks, what kind of behaviour you expect, and will/won't tolerate from him and that you and your family WILL walk away if you don't get it.

Poor wife, living on tenterhooks 'managing' her husband then running after him to apologise to the family members he's offended. Her life must be hell. Put it this way, every time you pull him up about this conduct you are probably doing his wife a favour and teaching his children that it's not them at fault, it's their angry Dad.

diddl : Db works on his own as a sole trader, so doesn't have to manage or be managed by others.

It's not up to db to get the alarm fixed or replaced: it is a joint one for the house (6 flats). More to the point, dad has said he doesn't want a new one. He has a sort of Zen like view that if the place gets burgled, it gets burgled - it's only "things" - but that if you think positively, things are less likely to happen. Sounds strange coming from someone who is otherwise extremely methodical and scientific but he has that right. He has always preferred to think positively about people and the world - it's something he got from his own mother.

Dh has suggested what you suggested about the dinners - getting dad to come over here. It's something we will discuss with dad when he comes over.

The problem with me avoiding contact with db is my own extreme fear of confrontation to the extent that I stick my head in the sand and drive dh up the wall is that I'm not sure how I would tell db why I was not wanting to see him.

Cross-posted EldritchCleavage

I'm going to have to work out a way to do it, aren't I? And persuade dad to do so too.

Dh says I need to add the word "long suffering" when describing him! - I've been showing him the responses.

If you want to record him then a smartphone like an iphone in your pocket will give a good result if you use the video camera, it records sounds well.

Decide what your limits are. Then decide to stick to them. I don't see why you need to have a big annoucement to your DB about what you intend to tolerate in the future - just stick to your limits and walk away each time he crosses a line. He will get the message in the end. If you need to say anything then have some lines ready 'I am not going to accept this situation' or 'We are leaving because this is unpleasant'

You absolutely don't have to 'confront' your brother (e.g. list all his faults, attack him). I'm only suggesting you state your position calmly e.g. 'I don't want to go back to dinner every week. It's too much. I am not going to be browbeaten on this.' (Ok, indirect accusation there, I admit). If he asks why, 'DH and I have felt increasingly we bear the brunt of anger and overbearing conduct from you. We don't like it' and 'I am happy to see you, but not to be shouted at or constantly put down. Either it improves or contact reduces.'

I'm not good at finding forms of words but as often said on here it helps to have a script and stick to it. Avoid any kind of argument he will try to win: just say not doing that, not tolerating this, repeat to fade.

Your brother is a bully.

He is unlikely to change or mend his ways (since he's always right and others are always in the wrong, in his view...). So keep on deciding how much contact you want to have with him, and stick to what you are comfortable with.

Since you say you tend to avoid conflicht, you might greatly benefit from some assertiveness training. A face-to-face course is best, but there are good books out there too, such as this one.

It does sound like your brother was physically intimidating your dad in the lift. This is worrying. Unfortunately, your dad will have to make his own choices as to how he approaches your brother, what limits he sets with him, etc. The letter he plans to write him sounds rather wet, tbf, and will do nothing to change the behaviour of such a person.

Basically, identify your own boundaries, and stick to them. It will probably create problems with your dad, though, if he chooses to continue to enable your brother, as he won't like seeing you change the family dynamic (no-one likes change).

Sorry you're in this situation. Good luck.

Tell your dad not to contact your brother till he's back from his trip and give it time to blow over. Book a housesitter to come in and check on the house if your dad wants someone to go in. Then start thinking about changing these arrangements that have you all at the mercy of your brother's moods. No more dinners with him there. Get your dad to come round to you. EldritchCleavage 's post gives great advice on boundaries.

As to how you confront your brother, keep it as minimal as possible. Does he contact you much or the other way around? The 'broken record' technique might help. I recommend this a lot on here but there is a book by Anne Dickson (who writes lots about assertiveness) called Difficult Conversations that you might find helpful. Can you also make sure your dh is with you when you speak to him?

How well do you actually get on with your SIL? It sounds odd to me that your brother has a go at you for not being more friendly with her. Can you talk to her about this without your brother getting involved?

I wasn´t suggesting that it´s up to your brother to fix the alarm-there´s nothing wrong with offering though, is there?

But obviously if your Dad says no, then that´s it.

If it´s a joint alarm-why isn´t your brother taking it up with whoever is responsible instead of shouting at your dad?

I really appreciate the advice I have been given on this thread. I began it because I thought that things had reached a head - particularly with the distress dad is in now - that there might be a way to address some of the issues.

The fact that dad is going away for over a month might actually help the situation.

The family dynamic does have to change. There is an opportunity to address it. We all (and that includes my dad) need to accept the need for change - and in doing so, that might result in db following through on his threat to "withhold" the grandchildren :(

Both Dad and I are normally very assertive people - in every area except personal relationships

Would your dad be willing to stop seeing your brother every week for a while?

Or go to your brother´s so that he can leave when he wants to?

Btw-what about your SIL?

Your brother isn´t the only parent!

Would she keep contact with your father & let him see the children?

Don't fall in the trap of being paralysed and not acting because of the threat to withhold grandchildren. If your brother's twattishness is getting worse he could do that at any time regardless of what you do. He obviously feels the adulation and obedience he ought to get from you and father hasn't been forthcoming. You're his family, not his hostages.

I've now spoken to Dad about the need to establish boundaries and to stick to them. I have said that that may result in db again threatening to withhold the grandchildren - but that that, upsetting as it might be, would be his problem.

SIL herself has a thing about us not being more of a "family". She comes from a country where extended families are much more involved with each other than they are here (so you're right - I don't think she would stop dad seeing the grandchildren)

She got upset recently because she thought dh was deliberately avoiding her. I managed to smooth it over by explaining (truthfully) that the reason we hadn't been to dinner at their place recently/much was she always asked us at too short notice - like the day before or when we already had other commitments.

Db had a go at me a number of years ago. He wrote me a diatribe email in which he accused me of being selfish and self-centred and that I hadn't done enough to welcome SIL as she was a foreigner in a strange land and a lot of other things besides. I don't know all the detail as I stopped reading and forwarded the email to dh and asked him if I should read any further. He told me not to: at the time I was dealing with the aftermath of miscarrying twins :(:(, being in a bullying environment at work (not just me: the whole team were but my boss's boss was also a bully so there was nothing to do about it), doing two people's jobs as the colleague who I was buddied with was off work with stress (and ultimately left because of our boss), not having time to see any of my friends, seriously thinking about leaving my job with no job to go to despite being the only salary earner.......

I ended up never responding (started a response going through some of the things I was dealing with at the time) as I decided life was too short.

But in a sense, thinking back, I was just avoiding the issue again rather letting db know how much his behaviour distresses us.

So basically, your brother gets to say and do all sorts of aggressive and hurtful things, yet there are no real consequences for him, because either people engaged and argue back (which seems to be something he wants) or just put up with it. That is why your boundary-setting has to change. Has anyone tried walking out when he goes off on a rant like this? Do you withdraw contact after one of his aggressive/argumentative episodes? Or does everyone just act like it never happened?