Problems with SIL, don't quite know how to react

[NellyBluth]

I posted about my SIL before if anyone recognises this, but I foolishly did it in AIBU. Apologies if this is long but I don't want to drip feed.

My DB has been with SIL for about 6 years now. They have two children, nephew is 4, niece is 1. I have a 6mo DD, 1st DC. Before DD was born we always got on reasonably well, she is about 6 years younger than me, we don't have much in common and didn't see each other regularly but we were friendly enough. Their son was the first baby in our family and even though I didn't live locally I tried to see him as often as I could. He is an adorable boy and I love spending time with him.

However there were issues within the family from the start as SIL wouldn't let anyone from either ours or her family spend time with alone our nephew. Relatively 'normal' interaction with grandparents wasn't allowed. This is quite hard to explain, but whenever anyone went to see my nephew we would all sit around in one room and watch him, trips to the park literally opposite their house were always vetoed, no one was allowed to leave the room with him etc. It has been like this for all 4 years, even now we are not allowed to leave the room alone with DN if, for example, he wants to show us something in the garden. Me and my parents accepted this but over the years this became very hurtful to my parents as their ideas of the relationship they might have with their grandson never came to be - they live an easy drive away and, like most grandparents, imagined as he grew up they might babysit occasionally, or take him to the park. They still see him as often as they can, though, and have always gone along with SIL's requests without interfering. SIL is exactly the same with her parents, so it is not as if just my parents SIL has an issue with, and her parents are distancing themselves from her because of this. My niece was born last year and the same behaviour continued - for example, when anyone visited, hours would go by before my DB would finally ask my SIL if the grandparents or I could have a quick cuddle, as she held the baby on her lap the whole time.

I fell pregnant a few months before my niece was born and the few times I was able to see DB and family, SIL didn't want to discuss pregnancies, in fact seemed reluctant to acknowledge that I was pg. Since DD was born SIL has not been to see her. Now for a long time this didn't bother me because, logistically, it was quite difficult to get together. Neither DP or I drive so we can't go to DB's house under our own steam (the journey isn't possible by public transport), and I fully appreciate bringing two little ones over to my house is no easy feat. DB has made it over a few times alone, though, as he works quite near, and has been lovely with DD.

What has really got me upset today is that DB came over a few days ago as he had a job near me. This morning my parents went to visit him and the DGDs. My brother grabbed them before they got into the house and asked them not to mention anything about him visiting me, as SIL didn't know. Now I might be overreacting here, but to me, if DB can't tell SIL that he popped in for a hour while he was in the area, SIL is unhappy with him having any relationship with his only niece. Am I reading something more in to this or is that how it sounds to other people?

I really, really don't expect them to be all gushing over my daughter when they have two little ones of their own to manage, but I'm really hurt if this is the case and I don't really know how to feel about this and how to continue having a relationship. And this has brought to a head the hurt she is gradually causing my parents - and, of course, the hurt my DB is causing them too. He acknowledges occasionally that her behaviour and her need to have her children within her sight at all times is extreme and she would benefit from help, but he won't push the issue with SIL, and won't talk any further with us. Because her behaviour has gone on for so long I genuinely have no idea now whether she is ill and needs support, or whether this is just how she is.

I just feel at a loss how to cope with this slow deterioration of relations between the family. I know that when I try to explain this it reads as if me and my parents are spiteful and controlling but we're really not, they don't expect anything more than to be allowed to love their DGCs. I firmly believe everyone has the right to raise their children how they want to. But I also feel incredibly hurt that my SIL, a woman who adores her children, can pretty much pretend my DD doesn't exist. I know it sounds petty and mean but I am hurt by it. How to I deal with this? If it sounds like it is entirely mine and my parents issue, how do we move past this? And if it sound as if she is ill and needs support, how do we deal with this if my DB refuses to acknowledge it? (To note, we don't really know SIL's family so we're not in a position to talk to them about her).

(I'm so sorry this is so long , thanks if you made it through)

Bit of a shot in the dark, but could there be any history of sexual abuse in SIL's life? Might explain why she won't let anyone else be alone with her DC, if she feels she can't trust anyone. It's possible your DB knows and understands more than he is sharing with you.

Wow, that woman has some serious problems. How is she ever going to cope when her kids reach school age?

I was going to suggest that too - maybe sexual abuse from a family member? not sure how you'd proceed, but maybe worth suggesting to your parents to help them feel less left out? Can you raise it with your db?

Do you know, as I was writing that out the thought of possible abuse occured to me that maybe there is - sometimes when you write things out you see them differently. It would certainly explain why she is reluctant to let her children out of her sight with anyone. I don't know if DB knows though. Obviously he wouldn't tell us if there was, but I suspect if he knew he would have a stronger reply when DM or I try to discuss things. Stronger as in asking us to back off, rather than shrugging it off. I suppose there is even a chance that SIL doesn't know herself that anything happened, just that she feels this overwhelming urge to keep her DCs with her at all times. Which is more than understandable, but I'm scared it will push both families away.

Musomathsci, nephew doesn't attend pre-school and there has been some talk of home schooling - , as this would be because she doesn't want to let him out of her sight, rather than believing strongly in home schooling.

Gosh, well, firstly, don't apologise to us for seeming mean or petty, I think your comments and opinions are well justified and don't reflect badly on you.
How sad for your DB that he is having to keep his visits to you and your DD secret. How sad for their son and daughter that they aren't being given the opportunity to develop good relationships with their close family.

As Clytaemnestra says, there may well be something in her past that is making her so over-cautious with her DC and if so, then accepting her behaviour would really be the only option.

What I do find very strange is that while possible abuse would explain her need to keep her DC close by, it wouldn't (imo) excuse her lack of interest in your baby. I am also of the school of not expecting others to worship my DC as I do, but to be ignored? To not discuss even in a small way, pregnancy when you would at some point have both been pg together?

How is she with your DB and the kids, is he able to take them out for the day or a couple of hours without her? Could he bring them to meet their neice? It would be nice if they could mix a little as they grow?

It seems really spiteful of your SIL to not acknowledge your dd. Your brother needs to have a big big chat with her about this as not acceptable!

Re not wanting to see your dd, well, if it is abuse she build have any number of triggers, whether she knows it or not.

Or she could just be barking.

I guess the important thing is working out how to maintain contact so the children - and gps - can build relationships.

Sorry, probably not that helpful...

Are you absolutely sure that your SIL does not have some serious issues with your family?

TBH it sounds like she just doesn't like you very much. It may be that some things which seem absolutely normal to you really rile her, and she feels that you would be a negative influence on her children, hence her desire to keep you away.

I'll give you an example. PIL are obsessive achievement fetishists. Everyone in their entourage must be exceptional in some way or other.

This manifests in two ways. One is excessive praise for extremely trivial things (oh, you are soooo clever, you just did x). The other is complete paranoid anxiety if a child seems in any way 'behind' (can't walk at 12 months? Must take him to bee seen! what if there is something wrong with him).

It's incredibly toxic in both cases, and I do not want my children to be affected by it. It drives me mad. As a result, I have distanced myself from them, and avoid being in the same room as them and my children, as I know I will struggle to bite my tongue.

Maybe your SIL has something similar going down, and unlike me has the courage of her convictions and refuses to let her dc be with your family where she cannot monitor the interactions?

As to the ignoring your dd, I think we already had this conversation on a different thread, but adoring your own children does NOT mean you like anyone else's....

Thanks gnocchi - I got a bit of a flaming on AIBU (my mistake for going there) and so I was worried that my family and I sound awful. I was told on that thread that it was incredibly PFB of me to expect SIL to show interest in DD.

I suspect that, as bad as it sounds, she is jealous now that DD is here. She never mentions her, never asks a question or makes a comment when DD comes up on conversation when my parents are there, basically pretends she doesn't exist.

DB can't take the kids. Since my niece has been born he has occasionally been allowed to take him to the shops, just the two of them. Once, when the whole family was due at my parents, SIL's nan was taken to hospital. She understandably wanted to go and see her, but neither child was allowed to go to my parents. Niece was bf at the time so that's understandable, but 4yo nephew wasn't allowed to go either.

That is a good point discrete but didn't op say was like that with her own family.

I am not sure what you can do aside from keeping contact with db because it is going to be difficult to tackle this if he doesn't want to rock the boat.

Regarding your pg, how interested were you in her 1st pg?

You see, a 1st pg is ever so interesting, the second is sometimes well, not so much.

It is possible that you were in your early pg, wanting to talk about pg, when she was 'been there, done that' late into her 2nd pg, and not very interested in talking about it?

Well, some may think it's PFB to expect others to show an interest in another's child, but I think it's incredibly rude to ignore or never acknowledge a child born into your family.

I feel very, very sorry for your Brother. And your parents. And your DD.

Is there ever an opportunity for you to talk to her when noone else is around, when you could ask her why she is reluctant to let you interact alone with her kids? Nit sure exactly how you'd word it so she doesn't react badly though as she sounds very, very sensitive where her children were concerned.
FWIW I felt similarly to her when my DD was little, to this day I have no idea why, but I hated my Dad or any man other than DH being around DD when she was naked, having her nappy changed, or going off with her alone. I felt frantic and flustered and panicy. No abuse towards me that I know of. Never felt like it about DS.

Discrete, as SIL's behaviour and attitude is exactly the same with her family as it is with mine, yes, I am pretty sure that she doesn't have serious issues with them in particular. She might not like us too much, which is completely fine (I don't like my PIL very much, for example). If she felt this way and wanted to monitor interaction then this means she feels the same way about her husband's behaviour, as he isn't allowed to take them out of her sight either.

As for not having to like other people's children yes, this was discussed on the other thread (and this is not AIBU, I'm after advice here), but I'm standing by my guns that it is perfectly acceptable to be hurt that SIL will not acknowledge the existence of my DD. One question in 6 months, or allowing DB to see DD even if she doesn't want to, is just polite.

God only knows what your SIL's issue is, but for whatever reason, she seems pretty potty.

I think that the first thing with her behaviour is to try not to take it even slightly personally, because it clearly has nothing to do with you. Neither you or your family can expect to change it and I think you just have to accept what's on offer with your nieces and nephews, and really concentrate on introducing your DD to other people who will make you and your DD feel loved. Your brother clearly loves his niece but has his hands tied. He may be finding the situation really hard to manage.

At least your child will give your parents a chance for a different sort of relationship with a grandchild.

The second thing is that I think you should do your best to keep your relationship with your DB as warm and supportive as possible. The poor guy has obviously got himself into a complex situation, and if your SIL becomes even more difficult, he'll need your love and support.

I'm another who thinks that too, I know I was a little like this with my first for those very reasons, not to the extent of your SIL but enough that some family found it weird. I trusted very few people, didn't want people touching him. I had PND at that time, which made it worse.
I got appendicitis 6 weeks after I had DS and obviously had to be hospitalised, the only person I trusted (my mum) was in another part of the country with my Dsis.
my ex didn't realise the extent of my panic/worry and left my son with one of his family members (absolutely lovely person who I would never imagine would hurt my child) so he could be at the hospital. I had panic attacks and almost a bloody breakdown through worrying. I discharged myself 12 hours after my op not one of my best decisions ever made I could barely walk, was in agony and really needed to be in hospital but all I could think about was protecting my baby. It got better over time though and I was a lot more relaxed and trusting with DS2 and DS3.

I don't know why and seriously can't think why she wouldn't want to see your Dd or would be pissed off that your Db has seen her. Possibly she could be suffering from PND, it could explain some of her behaviour. Maybe have a quiet word with your brother, obviously he will be unlikely to break his wife's confidence but maybe he need's to speak to someone.

Hope it gets resolved, really feel for all of you xxx

I had a friend like this , she literally wouldn't let her son out of her sight. No history of abuse she was just by her own admission neurotic . She didn't send to play group and considered home schooling .

Bish, can I ask what happened in the long term with your friend? (I notice you say 'had'...)

Dondon, I'm really sorry to hear that story, thank you though for sharing it. Good to hear that things did get better for you. I know my DB is pretty adamant (at the moment) that DN goes to school so I have hopes that this will be a help in the long run. I worry for my nephew a lot, he's a lovely little lad but as he grows up you can see how frustrated he is with being cooped up in the house with no interaction with other kids every day.

Some really good advice here. I know I shouldn't take it personally, I managed for so many years to keep saying that to my parents, but I guess now it relates to DD it hurts so much more. I'd love her to get to know her cousins. If I win the lottery I will learn to drive and turn up at their house!

This is really hard. I don't get on with my SIL, but she is my dh's brother's wife ie. not my direct SIL as it were. And it is not this bad. I haven't read the rest of the advice, but these are my thoughts.

I would be hurt, if I were you too. Of course it is hurtful that she is basically blanking your dd so far. But I would also try to accept that there is something wrong with your SIL, possibly quite seriously wrong, and therefore to feel compassion for her, rather than hurt. Who knows if she knows there's a problem/ knows why, or whether your db does - but it really doesn't sound normal behaviour. I think for your niece and nephew's sake you should keep contact, because there may be a time when you do need to be a bit more involved and help your db, if you see that her behaviour is really starting to affect them. I would stay in some sort of contact for this reason and because you love them and want to see them/ have a relationship as much as possible with them. But you don't have to be her friend, or have any expectation of her at all. I would totally let go of any expectations and just maintain the relationship for your db and your niece and nephews.

We are still friends but not close. She drive me nuts , lovely girl but do obsessed with her child it was stifling. She has said in recent years she thinks she had Pnd .i would Agree.

Maybe SIL will acknowledge this one day. It's so hard when everyone is generally pretending that there is nothing wrong, when it seems like there is. I'm not close enough to her to ask.

Thanks, Merry, that is really good advice. If I let go of the expectations then I hopefully won't feel as hurt. We have so many close friends in our life who DD will grow up seeing as 'aunts' and 'uncles' and who want to spend time with our new family.

I wish there was something someone could do for my nephew, though. I know this makes me sound judgey now but it seems so sad for him. I hope we can convince her to send him to school next September.

I would also have thought along the abuse lines, but the fact that your brother isn't "allowed" to see his neice suggests that maybe she is very controlling? My dad's partner was like this exactly, i sent pics of my DC to him (because he wasn't allowed to come to see them) and my brother told me that he had to hide them in his car!

Perhaps she is pretentious herself and thinks that she is the only one who knows how to deal with children, and perhaps worries that others will damage her kids? I have seen on other forums for example mothers who feel that praise is bad for a child, therefore won't allow unsupervised contact with a grandparent because thay might say "Oh that's a lovely drawing you did" etc. That is only one example, i have read of other strange reasons why mothers felt it wasn't safe for their dc's to have family contact.

What is to stop your brother bringing his children to see you?

Is it just because he doesn´t want to upset her?

I think you need to talk to him about it.

When my PFB was still tiny I felt very possessive.

I hated anyone else-other than husband holding him or pushing the pram.

It hurt.

I would be wishing for him to cry for a feed so that I could have him back.

No idea why.

Nelly - Does your DN not have interaction with any other children?

That is incredibly sad and not at all normal. Are health visitors aware of the family's situation?

First thought is your sister in law has been sexually abused
Second thought is she wants to be queen bee and display her children and not acknowledge that there are other children in the family,
Third thought is she is mad as a box of frogs and I think you should talk to your brother about building a relationship with him and his children that does not include her,