Problems with SIL, don't quite know how to react

[NellyBluth]

I posted about my SIL before if anyone recognises this, but I foolishly did it in AIBU. Apologies if this is long but I don't want to drip feed.

My DB has been with SIL for about 6 years now. They have two children, nephew is 4, niece is 1. I have a 6mo DD, 1st DC. Before DD was born we always got on reasonably well, she is about 6 years younger than me, we don't have much in common and didn't see each other regularly but we were friendly enough. Their son was the first baby in our family and even though I didn't live locally I tried to see him as often as I could. He is an adorable boy and I love spending time with him.

However there were issues within the family from the start as SIL wouldn't let anyone from either ours or her family spend time with alone our nephew. Relatively 'normal' interaction with grandparents wasn't allowed. This is quite hard to explain, but whenever anyone went to see my nephew we would all sit around in one room and watch him, trips to the park literally opposite their house were always vetoed, no one was allowed to leave the room with him etc. It has been like this for all 4 years, even now we are not allowed to leave the room alone with DN if, for example, he wants to show us something in the garden. Me and my parents accepted this but over the years this became very hurtful to my parents as their ideas of the relationship they might have with their grandson never came to be - they live an easy drive away and, like most grandparents, imagined as he grew up they might babysit occasionally, or take him to the park. They still see him as often as they can, though, and have always gone along with SIL's requests without interfering. SIL is exactly the same with her parents, so it is not as if just my parents SIL has an issue with, and her parents are distancing themselves from her because of this. My niece was born last year and the same behaviour continued - for example, when anyone visited, hours would go by before my DB would finally ask my SIL if the grandparents or I could have a quick cuddle, as she held the baby on her lap the whole time.

I fell pregnant a few months before my niece was born and the few times I was able to see DB and family, SIL didn't want to discuss pregnancies, in fact seemed reluctant to acknowledge that I was pg. Since DD was born SIL has not been to see her. Now for a long time this didn't bother me because, logistically, it was quite difficult to get together. Neither DP or I drive so we can't go to DB's house under our own steam (the journey isn't possible by public transport), and I fully appreciate bringing two little ones over to my house is no easy feat. DB has made it over a few times alone, though, as he works quite near, and has been lovely with DD.

What has really got me upset today is that DB came over a few days ago as he had a job near me. This morning my parents went to visit him and the DGDs. My brother grabbed them before they got into the house and asked them not to mention anything about him visiting me, as SIL didn't know. Now I might be overreacting here, but to me, if DB can't tell SIL that he popped in for a hour while he was in the area, SIL is unhappy with him having any relationship with his only niece. Am I reading something more in to this or is that how it sounds to other people?

I really, really don't expect them to be all gushing over my daughter when they have two little ones of their own to manage, but I'm really hurt if this is the case and I don't really know how to feel about this and how to continue having a relationship. And this has brought to a head the hurt she is gradually causing my parents - and, of course, the hurt my DB is causing them too. He acknowledges occasionally that her behaviour and her need to have her children within her sight at all times is extreme and she would benefit from help, but he won't push the issue with SIL, and won't talk any further with us. Because her behaviour has gone on for so long I genuinely have no idea now whether she is ill and needs support, or whether this is just how she is.

I just feel at a loss how to cope with this slow deterioration of relations between the family. I know that when I try to explain this it reads as if me and my parents are spiteful and controlling but we're really not, they don't expect anything more than to be allowed to love their DGCs. I firmly believe everyone has the right to raise their children how they want to. But I also feel incredibly hurt that my SIL, a woman who adores her children, can pretty much pretend my DD doesn't exist. I know it sounds petty and mean but I am hurt by it. How to I deal with this? If it sounds like it is entirely mine and my parents issue, how do we move past this? And if it sound as if she is ill and needs support, how do we deal with this if my DB refuses to acknowledge it? (To note, we don't really know SIL's family so we're not in a position to talk to them about her).

(I'm so sorry this is so long , thanks if you made it through)

Your brother is enabling her, and so are both sides of the family, by letting her go on like this. Of course, it's totally understandable, but someone - your DB - needs to say enough is enough. What she is doing to her children by being like this is emotional abuse. Whatever her reasons, it's so, so damaging. Getting obsessive amounts of attention and not being allowed any separation from their mother, coupled with them seemingly existing to make her happy (not being allowed out of her sight) is how Narcissists are made. She's not allowing them to be real, full children, just dolls that exist for her needs. And a parent being utterly obsessive over their child or children can be a form of what's called covert or hidden incest; there's zero sexual component to this form of abuse, but, just as the paedophile turns a child, who has no way of protecting themself, into the object upon which all their sexual and power desires are acted out, covert incest is where the child becomes the object whereupon the parent - in this case, SIL - acts out the fulfilment of her needs and the soothing of her anxieties, etc. Your Dd doesn't exist for her because SIL has no need for her in getting her emotional and psychological needs met. She doesn't exist to her, because she has no function in her life. She doesn't view children like the rest of us, sounds like she sees them as objects that either serve a purpose to her or are pointless.

I saw your previous post, although didn't comment. She really, really sounds like she needs help... And so do her kids,by the sound of it. This isn't about her being a bit of a cow, over-protective, etc., she is deeply damaged and will be deeply damaging those kids in turn.

I tend to agree with Oxfordbags in terms of how damaging this will likely be to your nephew and niece. I've not heard of covert incest before so can't comment on that, but your SIL has got some serious issues, and although I can see that where her own DC are concerned, these might stem from past abuse or neurosis, that doesn't quite explain why she refuses to acknowledge the existence of your own DD.

I feel desperately sorry for your brother - the fact that he has to keep his visits to his own niece hidden from his wife is insane - but then the whole situation your SIL has created is. :(

She may have PND, she may not, but she's got something going on that's not healthy for her own children. I hope her parents and your brother can do something about it rather than letting her continue with this course.

Surely your brother also has a say in how his children are brought up/educated?

What if he doesn´t want them to be home schooled, for example?

I can understand being like this about a baby (I was a bit obsessive at first) but a 4 year old is going to suffer if he is not allowed to test his social skills with other kids and build relationships with his extended family. Not letting your husband take care if his own children alone is very concerning. It sounds to me like she needs help.

No, DN has pretty much no interaction with other children at all, the nearest is probably SIL's youngest sibling, who is now about 23. At first we thought it was sad, but now he is older... yes, I think I agree that it is in its own, weird way a form of abuse. They have had no real interaction with HV's after having an issue with one when nephew was a few months old, and if their system is like ours then I doubt the HV ever follow up on babies. I understand exactly what you are saying, oxford, though I do also think it there is an element of what madmum says, that she feels she is the only person who can possibly look after her children.

In theory DB could just walk out of the house with the children but he gives in to her demands and has never tried it. I think he suspects that if he ever tried it, SIL would just take the kids as soon as he got back and go to her mums (though what her mum would do then I don't know, given that she is as pissed off as we all are after all these years).

Rabid - to your third thought. I sometimes wonder if the answer to all this is that simple! However the suggestion about talking to DB about how the cousins will form a relationship is a good one, that isn't an angle I had thought of before but it might actually be a good way to start a conversation with him.

Our big fear as a family is that if we press DB on this - I the more I talk/think about this, the more I believe that he is unconsciously causing the problems - we run the risk of DB chosing SIL over us and cutting off all contact. At least now we have limited contact. My mum has attempted over the years to talk about it and DB has not reacted well, though I'll be first to admit our mum is not the most tactful of women. Would other people risk losing contact entirely? (Genuine question). Or are there any HV out there, what would you do if you knew about a mum who never took her kids out of the house or socialised them?

I think you will have to become 'a bit of an expert' to fight for your DN and DNiece. Not letting other people look after your kids, and not letting them socialise are 2 very different things. Do they go to toddler groups, playgroups, have people round to play etc.? If the answer is that they don't socialise, then this is very damaging and you should look into it before you talk to your DB. Then I would talk to him, not pretend to be about the cousin's relationship, but with genuine deep concern, show him any 'evidence'. Say you have held back from this conversation because you really don't want to spoil your relationship with him, but that you are worried enough to speak up. I'm sure this will mean everything to him. To know you love him, and love his kids. There are ways of doing this really sensitively but openly, without making barbed comments ("Are they going to be tied to her apron strings forever?") or throwaway/ incorrect comments ("They'll never be able to make friends if they don't come and stay over") which will just antagonise. Know your stuff and then have a good chat with him, just the 2 of you. I think you owe to the kids, and your conscience.