A ramble. Not sure what I need.

[MamaCross]

He is very controlling, but in a subtle way. In an ideal world I would cut all contact - I know I would be so much happier, but how do you do that when you feel so guilty just thinking of him?

He scares me. I feel frightened when the phone rings or when the doorbell goes in case it's him. I don't want him here and I don't want to go to his house, or on a day out with him, and I don't want to talk to him.

But he can be nice, is nice most of the time in fact. But he is unpredictable too. Sometimes I can't tell if he's joking or being serious. Sometimes when I disagree with him or try to stand up for myself or my kids, he will suddenly shout something and then within seconds he's back to normal as if nothing happened.

Although he has told me that he is proud of me, I always feel like I am not good enough. He reminds me sometimes of things I've done in the past that he didn't like.

I feel like I have to be the good daughter - visit him, call him, enquire about his health, go on day trips with him, allow him to visit whenever he likes even if I had plans. Yet I don't want to be the good daughter. I just want to be me. I am happy with myself and my life and I am sick and tired of feeling like I'm under his thumb.

He came to visit last week with half an hour's notice, knowing I work from home, yet I allowed it. He always reminds me how ill he has been for the last year and that he almost died and in fact could die at any moment (err...but couldn't ALL of us die at any moment?) and I feel so so guilty, but at the same time having daydreams about how much of a relief it would be if he wasn't around any more, or if I moved far far away.

I am so conflicted.

After he leaves my house, I have a few seconds of extreme swearing to myself about him. He was rude about my DC last time he was here (luckily DC was out) and when I disagreed, he shouted "what the fuck!!! I'm not arguing with you!!" when he was. I love him because he's my dad, but I don't like him. I don't like how I feel when he's around and I don't like how I feel when I think about him.

Our relationship feels oppressive to me.

My DC doesn't really want him around either. He tries to force me to force my DC into going out for the day with him - I'm not into this at all. DC is a teen and prefers going out with mates during summer hols and why not? Why shouldn't we do what makes us happy?

I don't know what I want out of posting this here, just needed to get it off my chest really. Hope no one can identify me (least of all him!)

Oh, oops! 'He' in the first sentence is my dad!

No reason you shouldn't do what makes you happy MC. This is exactly what you should aim for.

I wonder if you would consider having some counselling sessions so that you can start dealing with this. You describe someone who is controlling and hard to get along with, but early in your post you say:

He scares me. I feel frightened when the phone rings or when the doorbell goes in case it's him.

And later:

I don't like how I feel when he's around and I don't like how I feel when I think about him.
...and He tries to force me...

That's pretty serious. It's worse than having a difficult family member, and there is perhaps more to it than you've put in this post. Perhaps going back many years.

So it's time to put up some boundaries and start saying no, for your child's sake if you can't do it for your own sake. And if you've any chance of moving away, look into doing that, as it seems that you want some literal, physical distance from your Dad.

So do look into counselling, or getting some support, because you cannot live your life in fear of someone like this, feeling misplaced guilt if you don't do what they say.

When you started this post I thought he was a sort of stalker boyfriend or exp.
Pretty shocked to discover he is you dad.
There are threads on here about toxic behaviour be parents to their now grown up children.Have you read any of it?They are very knowledgeable about this sort of thing.If you cant find the thread,I will try and find it for you.It is ongoing,It has been going for several years i think.

Thank you both for your replies. I know deep down in my heart that this is not 'normal' and yet it is normal for me.
I have had therapy and it was a wonderful experience. I dealt with some major stuff but this thing with my dad is harder. I had some issues with my mother too but she was...trainable...for want of a better word. My therapy finished a couple of months ago (NHS) and although i now don't feel like I'm done, I did agree to not go again until September, just for a follow up. I had about 20 sessions and we mutually agreed to stop as i had made so much good progress.

There isn't really much more to my OP, he's very much a man who will use guilt to get me to do what he wants, that's all. And much as i want to move far away, due to finances it's not possible yet.

I've looked at the stately homes thread but its a bit overwhelming. I own a copy of Toxic Parents.

My therapist did say that i don't have to be a good daughter if i don't want to. I can be a crap one if i like, i just don't know how and the guilt is all consuming. If i could just do what the hell i like and not feel the guilt, i think i'd be ok.

Guilt...the weapon of of choice for the abusive father to use against the "good" daughter.

I am sorry for you Op it's horrible to feel like this and he knows what he is doing and does it anyway.

Unfortunately only you can decide what boundaries to put around yourself.

maybe just changing to 2 phone numbers so you can screen private calls whilst still taking professional calls would be a start. that way he can't get you to be available because he catches you unawares.

You don't have to be a good daughter of course, but it is hard to stand up for oneself when that makes us feel guilty!

I like that idea foolonthehill. I don't even have caller display so getting a phone with that would help, then no need for 2 numbers. Don't know why i haven't thought to do that before.

"he knows what he's doing and does it anyway". I don't know how true that is of him. It could well be true. I don't know, i feel quite mixed up right now.

not surprising.....he is giving you so many mixed messages...if only our parents didn't matter so much to us , but they do. And somehow we have to either find the means to cope or the strength to walk away.

Very mixed messages, yes.
If I'm really really honest with myself, my parents don't really matter much to me. I do feel some love for them both but they have both done things throughout my younger years that have damaged me psychologically.

Mother I've dealt with, I have detached, grieved for the mother I wished she could have been and I can cope with her being in my life now.

I don't know how to do the same with him. It's different.

Im bumping this thread op because i think you really need to talk here, i am not able to give you any advise but im sure there will many wise ladies on here who will be able to.
I will say one thing though. If he was not your father but a friend or partner you wouldn't stay in a relationship that made you so frightened or controlled. And you don't have to put up with someone who makes you unhappy . Tell your father you no longer wished to have any contact
with him then walk away.Don't feel guilty feel free.

Logan you are right, i absolutely wouldn't put up with it from a friend or partner.
And i shouldn't have to put up with it and im not sure why i do. Obligation? Misplaced loyalty? Because its what you're supposed to do - obey ones parents? I wish i could tell him and walk away but it would be so hard and he would want to know why. It's much easier said than done.
Thanks, it's so helpful to find understanding x

Just wondering if you are religious at all,and whether that is playing a part in all this?

No, not religious at all. But i have had this all my life and we're almost conditioned to do as we're told, be good, etc.

I'm an adult with my own family and i really wouldn't take this from anyone else. I feel like a naughty child trying to be good and not getting anywhere so i might as well stop trying to be good and just be myself and if he doesn't like it - tough!

But then i get the shame and guilt.

I know what i need to do. I need to detach like i did with my mother. It's harder because he brought me up.

ah.He brought you up.That may be at the heart of your shame and guilt.Do you feel you owe him more because of that?

I suppose I do, yes. That hadn't really occurred to me before.

did he bring you up well?
my guess is that he didnt

I'm not sure really. I have some good and fun memories of days out/holidays etc. But we didn't have much money and I think he struggled with knowing how to bring up a girl. As a result I struggled with knowing how to be a proper girl. I don't know if that will make sense to anyone.

There was an occasion when he kicked me on the bum, I can't remember why, but it wouldn't have been for answering back or anything as when I was being told off I'd just look at the floor. There was another occasion where he asked me to do something for him and I forgot. He found evidence that I hadn't done it a couple of weeks later and was so angry that he hit me on the side of my head and the other side hit the wall. That was the only time when I had the guts to walk out. I can remember how much it hurt. I went round a friend's house, but of course had to come home later. I don't remember an apology. These are the only 2 times I can recall physical violence ever happening. There may have been more minor things, but I don't recall.

The fact is, I feel intimidated by him, like I have to be careful what I say and careful what I tell him about. I feel very much like what I feel & my opinions don't really matter to him. It's all about him.

Can fully understand the first two paragraphs,poor you.

He is emotionally controlling you.
And you feel emotionally powerless around him.

Do you feel you owe him anything?
And if you did the same as you did to your mother,are you afraid of how he would react,enotionally or physically?

You dont have to answer any of this.

"He is emotionally controlling you.
And you feel emotionally powerless around him."

Correct.

"Do you feel you owe him anything?"

Sort of.
Children are 'supposed' to respect and love their parents and do as they are told.
Be seen and not heard (not my belief, but one I've learned from my parents).
He took me out of a damaging situation and brought me up alone. I should respect him for that (and I do really, I know it can't have been easy!)
I should love him because he's my dad (and I do).
I should do as I'm told because he is the parent and I am the child (albeit an adult one) so when he calls wanting to see me I should drop whatever I'm doing and see him whether I want to or not.
He made sacrifices for me so I should make sacrifices for him, whether I want to or not.
He has serious health problems so I should be extra nice and accommodating whether I want to or not, because as he frequently reminds me, he could drop down dead at any moment.

What has he ever done for me?
He took me in and brought me up, presumably in the best way he could, or the only way he knew how.
He gave me some fun times that I remember fondly.
He gave some money (albeit reluctantly, and only when asked) towards my wedding.
He has bought things for my DC when I was struggling to afford things.

Yet there are many things he hasn't done for me that I wouldn't think twice about doing for my own DC.

"And if you did the same as you did to your mother,are you afraid of how he would react,enotionally or physically?"

It's not possible to train him the way I've trained my mother, I've tried.
I am afraid of his reaction if I was to cut all contact. It is fear of the unknown I suppose: would it kill him? Would he be very very angry? Would he keep trying to contact me? Would he try to use my DC or my DH or other family members to get to me? Would the guilt be unbearable? Or would I feel complete relief and peace at last? I tend to believe he would be really angry, then upset, then keep on at me and on at me in an attempt to get me to back down, and if that didn't work, go for my DC/DH/whoever to try and talk 'sense' into me.

My mother is completely unaware that I've 'trained' her. It was easier with her as I am not so bothered about any reaction she might have and she doesn't scare me. With the help of my therapist I was able to set very solid boundaries and she no longer crosses them.

My therapist said, in relation to my dad, that when he calls wanting to come over or to go out for the day or whatever, that I should just keep repeating "no, that's not OK today" without giving any reason why it's not OK. But I have struggled with this, he is very persistent and will want to know why and if I just keep saying "it's not OK today" he will get angry and be rude to me and I don't like that.

I'm sorry to whoever is reading that this is so long. Really it's just as the title suggests - I'm rambling mostly. But writing it all down is helping and gaining others' input is helpful too as you give me things to think about that hadn't occurred to me before, so thank you and please carry on Hopefully we will reach a point where, either I can cope with him in an emotionally detached way, or I can cut contact altogether.

Look... I have four children, three of whom are now adult and one on his way there. They exist because I gave birth to them and I guess they kind of owe me for that. They owe me affection, respect and consideration for the years I brought them up and the values I've tried to instil in them. But I don't own them. They didn't make a bargain with me when they were born that I would give them everything for 18 years and after that they would give me everything until I died. They weren't in a position to; they were only just born! How can you hold someone to an agreement they didn't have any choice whether to make? That they didn't even realise existed?

My job as a parent, as I see it, is to bring up the next generation to be independent, decent human beings. OK, there was a lot of hard slog along the way but also a lot of joy, and that was my pay-off. Anything we can do for each other once they've flown the nest is a bonus. And they do, they're good boys. However I now owe them some respect and consideration in turn, which includes not turning up on their doorstep uninvited when they're trying to get some work done. They have other responsibilities. None of them have their own children yet, but when they do, their duty is absolutely to put those children first, not me. I should be in there and worshipped given all due respect, but I don't come first in their lives like I did when they were small.

And that's the natural way of things; how it should be. (In my opinion, of course.) They are not my toys to pick up when I want something to play with and put down when I can't be arsed.

Agree with everything Annie says.

re your post.I guess it is about training yourself to be "not so bothered by any reaction he might have,and doesnt scare me",ie in the same emotional place you are,with your mother.
It is fine to love somebody,but hate their behaviour.
imo,even if parents are toxic,it is ok to still love them,but definitely not like their behaviour.

imo,if it killed him,he is responsible for his own health and his own behaviour,and his own attitude.
yes,he is likely to be very very angry.Are you strong enough to let him rant and rant.
It is a bit of a shame that you cannot move physically further away,as that might east the problem a bit.
Would he keep trying to contact me.Probably yes initially.Depends how stubborn he is ,in the longer term.
Would he use family members against you.Prob yes,I dont know.I have no experience of this so couldnt comment or even guess.
Would the guilt be unbearable.I think for me,I would feel guilty if I felt I owed him something.I think in your situation,I'd say read Annies post.I think I would feel that if I had your dad,that I didnt.I had tried my best,he was not meeting me anywhere near half way,and I would say try and limit his visits to say 2 a year.

2 visits a year!! Oh how blissful that sounds

Sorry amillionyears I didn't intend for you to have to answer all those questions, but I'm very grateful that you did. And yes, re: moving away - my god how I'd love to, we all would and it is definitely something we will do as soon as it becomes possible financially to do so. We're in a really tight spot and stuck here for the time being.

anniegetyourgun Thank you, I appreciate your insight as a parent of adult children. You said:
"My job as a parent, as I see it, is to bring up the next generation to be independent"
I don't think he's done that. He has always found ways to get me to rely on him I think. I am married with a fantastic DH (who he likes) and I don't need to rely on him for anything any more. Maybe that's a piece of the problem, I'm not sure. Now he's trying to rely on me, by using extreme guilt-trippery and I don't want to be relied upon, or to be made to feel that I'm not 'doing my duty' as a good daughter. I just want to live my life in peace and happiness and not feel all this anxiety about any contact with him. He has a loyal wife who can be relied upon. I don't want to be the good girl any more. Quite honestly, I am reaching breaking point and I am feeling increasingly like I just want to stick two fingers up at the pair of them and ride off into the sunset with my happy little family.

How abouut saying 6 visits a year or whatever.And stick to the number whatever it is.
and a phone call twice a month or whatever.
Would that help with your guilt,and give you some breathing space?

I'm really not sure. I'm thinking more and more frequently that life would be so much easier if I didn't have to see him at all. Of course, if I lived far enough away, I could probably get away with once or twice a year and I think that would be OK purely because it would have to be arranged in advance, on a mutually agreed date and time. As it is now and for the foreseeable, we live in the same town and that makes things rather more difficult.

Ugh, I just don't know what to do for the best, it's such a tricky situation.

I think maybe what i need are some tips on how to assert myself with him. Actual phrases i could use when he starts in with the guilt trippy 'i could die' stuff, or non-inflammatory things i could say to get out of going to visit stately homes on day trips with him. And i will be doing my best to keep as much distance as possible from now on.

Agree with asserting yourself,and actual phrases.
the non-inflammatory things to get out of going on trips Ii dont think will really work.Cant really explain why.I suppose he will be able to talk you out of what you say,and I suppose it will comfuse him unnecesarily.And turn into a constant never ending battle ground.Again,I would say I will go out with you 4 rtimes a year on visits or whatever.