Divorce really sucks for kids, what is the tipping point in terms of the parent's relationship that means divorce is the better option?

[SoSoMamanBebe]

It's a MN mantra that it's better for parents to divorce rather than stay together for the children. Are there any studies which bear this out?

For me the tipping point would be any sort of abuse, but not if they are just unfulfilled by their relationship. How do you others measure it?

It depends on what you mean by "unfulfilled" I suppose. I don't think a couple should divorce if their relationship has just gone stagnant and can be revived with some effort, but I doubt that happens very often anyway. IME divorce usually happens when a couple has reached the point where they just can't see eye to eye, and in that situation I believe the children are better off because living in a house where there is constant disagreement and tension is just torture. Staying together even though you dislike each other and can't agree on anything is just bonkers really, it's a total waste in my view.

It didn't suck for me. My parents didn't get on and argued a lot so they got divorced, I was 14 at the time.

We saw Dad a couple of times a week, sometimes more. Everyone was happier, both eventually remarried and we got 2 Xmas's every year. But they clearly hated each other for years, I remember telling them to get divorced at one point as I was sick to death of them.

My sister however still seems to think it was all a great trauma .

I'm not aware that it's MN mantra for parents to divorce rather than stay together and . for all those parents who have divorced/separated after much thought, I think it is offensive to suggest it is.

I often see posters say that it is better for children to be in homes of divorced parents rather than unhappy ones. I just wondered at what point it becomes so. My parents divorced but bizarrely weren't that unhappy and my mother regrets it. It massively affected my sibling and myself. But then my mum has narc tendencies too, so that might have been what did the damage .

I take on board the other posters where everyday arguing is very unpleasant to live with. Are there any studies to bear out the positive effect of splitting up on children?

I don't think you can apply a blanket rule. No two people and no two relationships are the same. Something that one person can live with could be intolerable to another, which doesn't make either person wrong; just different.

I'm of the opinion that divorce in itself isn't a bad thing for children. It's how the parents handle it that makes the difference.

I don't think it's offensive to say that splitting is usually advocated as the consensus view on MN when marriages go wrong - sound a little flippant to call it a 'mantra' but that's only an expression.

The OP asks a good question given the number of people agonising about this on here, myself included.

DH and I have been drifting apart for years and decided to separate in February. Since then we have been living under the same roof. At first I felt relief the decision had been taken but have found myself taken aback by how painful it feels. DD1 finished primary school a few days ago, a big landmark, and it was heartbreaking that DH and I were sitting separately during the leavers' presentation.

We've nearly bought a house for me to move into, though the family home hasn't been sold. We haven't got money to burn, some relatives came to the rescue with a loan after our buyers dropped out. We still need to sell the family home.

I cannot wait for a new start in a new home, but find myself feeling really sad that DH won't be coming and have told him this. We've had financial problems and the new house is bigger, but cheaper than ours because it's not in such a posh area.

It's hard to know what the answer is when a marriage is bad, but not terrible; no abuse, but no happiness. It is difficult to weigh up the losses - being with someone who loves the kids just as much as you do, the shared history, the hopes and dreams from the beginning, the memories of better times - against the potential gains - freedom to start again on one's own terms, independence, new possibilities - to find the right answer.

If you are bickering all the time, there is an atmosphere you can cut with a knife, and you aren't good for each other or able to operate as a team, that isn't healthy for children. But separation/divorce IS hard for children too.

Still trying to work out the answers!

Was there any particular reason why you and your stbxh were sitting apart at the leavers' presentation, tired?

IMO it's important for dc to know that even after their dps have split, they're still on the same page in terms of their parenting ethos.

We were both so miserable and he wouldn't give up the other woman even though it was hurting me like hell. And he blamed me for everything. And I was dying inside. Divorce was like a death too and I grieve every day for what I have put my children through. But I would have been rubbish if I'd stayed. Just a piece of garbage and I didn't want to be that.

We just had a couple we are friends with sitting between us. We arrived at different times because I came from home and he came straight from work and it was how the seating worked out. But we were at the school concert and play sat side by side. But it still didn't feel like we were sitting together if that makes sense. And it was horrible.

Tired - do you know what went wrong with your marriage?

It may not have felt as if you were sitting together, tired, but to other eyes and more specifically to those of your dc, it would have appeared that you were united in watching your offspring perform/achieve.

Swallowing gall can be necessary for those dps who have the best interests of their dc at heart, and you should have no doubt that you'll reap a rich reward for putting your dcs' needs before those of your own.

Cailin, lots of things.

DH has always hated his job, but it was well paid. Lots of stress and responsibility. He wanted me to stop work when DD came along but suffered with the burden of supporting the family doing this job he hated. He was grumpy and miserable, took it all out on me, very critical. I was lonely at home with little ones, especially after we moved to somewhere away from all our friends (for schools and to not live in London). I got depressed, low self esteem. He only had energy for work and the children.

I wanted us to go for counselling, but he refused and didn't change and become more supportive until I'd got to the point I was saying I wanted a divorce (about 4-5 years ago).

We are also very different in many ways and there is a big age gap (he's older). I always felt like the junior partner and felt torn because I didn't like being 'kept' but wanted to be at home with the children when they were small as well. But not much appreciation of everything I did to try and be a great wife and mother. The classic story of a SAHM who gets no credit for the job.

I started a demanding Uni course leading to a career when kids were a bit older and that made us grow apart. I also fell in love with someone else, 'nothing happened' or was even said but the feelings were all there at least on my side.

I haven't been very nice to him in the last few years, because I'm angry at how he treated me earlier on. He blames me for our problems and is unwilling to accept his part in it.

Also, his job was very well paid but his business is now failing because of the recession. He's always very stressed re money and I feel powerless. I'm too far down the line to give up my course, but won't be earning for two more years. So lots of pressure there.

We have no sex life, it got worse and worse because of the problems. I stopped wanting it, rejected him, he stopped seeking it - a vicious circle.

But on the positive side, we have wonderful kids that we both have a great relationship with. I'm wondering if we move on to a new house, which would take the pressure off (we'd bank enough equity to mean he could do a different job, even no job for a while) while I qualify, things might be different. But it's a huge mountain to climb and I don't know if it's possible. But the alternative is grim too. The kids are his world and he would lose them for much of the time, he would also lose a lot of his 'wealth' and be in a dire position if his business fails. I don't know if I can live with that, it's not what I want for him. And I feel a profound sense of 'failure'.

Sorry for the essay, but you did ask! That's actually a simplified account. All marriages are complicated, aren't they?

I think the tipping point is when the relationship has become so acrimonious with parents creating such a poisonous atmosphere that the children feel that they are responsible for keeping the peace or are forced to take sides. Then it's not so much that divorce is the better option but that it's likely to be the lesser of two evils. I'm sure some children would like their parents to stay together regardless, of course.

I don't know what the studies show, and I don't know what others' experiences have been. I"m early on in my separation/divorce - it's only been since January. And yes, it's been hard on the kids. They've been through a lot of upset and tears. I took them away on holiday and although they had a lovely holiday, they missed their dad and they both got sad at the thought that we will never go on holiday all together again.

But...I also feel my relationship with my children is so much better than it's ever been. I spend more time with them now, pay more attention to them, eat dinner with them, talk to them. And I think the same is true of their dad. He can't hide in the study and stare at his computer all the time. When they are with him he has to be with them. He has no choice. So he too spends more time with them, eating with them, doing stuff with them, talking to them. And they totally notice and they love it. I'm not saying they love everything about their parents getting divorced. They don't. And it's been tough. But there are a lot of positives coming out of it as well.

But...I also feel my relationship with my children is so much better than it's ever been. I spend more time with them now, pay more attention to them, eat dinner with them, talk to them.

This sounds good. It's one of the reasons I wanted to separate. I always feel on the outside because DH doesn't want to do anything apart from spend time with the kids. I need outside friends and interests - I don't love the kids any less, but I think it's healthy not to just be a parent but to have an identity - and because I don't want to be around him I detach myself which is so awful for me and not great for them either.

He makes me feel like a bad mum and like he's got the moral high ground, because he doesn't want anything else in his life and I do. If I try and do stuff on my own with them, like take them shopping (they are both girls) he gives me the bad vibes because he feels left out.

I've got a holiday booked with them, all on our own for a week. I've no idea what it will be like because I've never done that. He has taken over more and more as they've got older.

Tired (disclaimer; I know bog all about this sort of stuff) You sound as if you would give it a go if circumstances were different. Is he willing to talk at all? Could you seek help on your own, if only to help get your head round it all. You also said it sounds impossible to unravel it all and to get your marriage back. I don't think you've failed, not at all. Life is hard and living life whilst doing marriage is hard as well. Could you start with just being friendly again?

Obviously I don't know you, and my words are only on a computer screen. But if I was you and feeling overwhelmed (it sounded like that in your post). I'd just try and take on one piece at a time iyswim.

Also OP, my parents divorced. Honestly I wish my Mum had stayed single. My stepdad was a looser and changed her for the worst. All of us were happy when he left!

Yogagirl, there's a piece by Lucy Cavendish today in the Times saying pretty much the same thing, that time spent with the children is calmer and more enriched, she says she prefers being a single parent.

I think the downside though, of dads having time on their own with children is that some step up to the plate, and some disappear off the face of the earth, or show very little interest. I have friends who have found the rejection by their father after divorce (not outright, more just lack of interest, usually replaced by another family) very hard to bear. I think I once read 40% of dads have little/no contact after divorce, it's a huge number. I get the feeling many men are interested in being dads hanging round the house in a family, but once having to be a main parent, they simply aren't up to it. Is it better for the child to have their presence, even if a bit hands-off, or a divorced disappearing dad. I guess it depends on the dad.

was going to post same question on here.. think tipping point has been reached for us - due to CogitoErgoSometimes's take on things.. so so difficult knowing that you are going to ruin your childrens' lives whichever of the two evils you choose.

My parents divorced when I was 12. Things were much better after that. Better relationship with both of them and I felt calm and secure. Whereas when they still lived together it was like a roller coaster and I was anxious all the time.
School reports were clear evidence - pre divorce I was disruptive in class and struggling. Post divorce I was doing very well indeed at school.

Cogito's take on things I would agree with. But kids do pick up on stuff as we all know. I knew mine were going to split up before they did. Talking about each other through gritted teeth such as "ask Daddy why he did X" etc is not good for them either.

For me the tipping point is when you wouldn't want your children, when they are older, to be in the kind of relationship you are in. IME people often model their behavior on what they perceive to be normal. I want my dc to think that normal is a demonstrably loving, equal relationship where issues are discussed, no one sulks and disagreements aren't settled with insults, name calling or the like.

The tipping point for DH was when he realised he was working late to avoid being around his ex and this meant he missed seeing his sons. Since leaving her he actually spends quality time with them and can be the father he wants to be.

I'm in favour of ending things early. Because they broke up before they hated each other DH and his ex have a very good relationship, she and I have a good relationship and we all meet up for sports day, school fetes etc.

So much I read on Mumsnet highlights a need for men to have the balls to leave before they destroy their ex and the potential for a positive post marital relationship.

My parents have been married for over 50 years and, for as long as I can remember, have never got along to put it mildly. The point at which I realised how much it had affected me was when I had my own DS and saw his reaction. One morning at their house breakfast was descending into the usual petty bickering. I reverted to my normal response of mild panic & waiting for things to calm down but DS (then about 3yo) got really upset saying 'Stop it!!! Stop being horrible!!!!'. There were mutterings about him being 'cheeky' but, for once, I had the gumption to tell them their behaviour was unacceptable .... and always had been.

Seeing how upset one minor episode made a child that wasn't used to experiencing arguments, I'm sure some psychological damage must be done if a child lives in that atmosphere all the time.

my children (8&10) both openly admit they are happier now we are appart

my oldest in particular is much more relaxed at home, gets much less stressed (what we both saw as being a persoality trait was actually stress which I feel terrible about)

They get to spend more quality time with me -I was working shifts while the ex was a stay at home dad (his choice) plus I was still doing all of the housework/cooking/shopping/childcare when I was at home and I was permanently tired and snappy and resentful of the XP

he was resentful of the fact that I got to go out to work while he had to stay at home and sit on his arse all day doing f all he did the bare minimum with the dcs and certainly didn't talk to them -they were always banished to their bedrooms

he is now working which is much better for his mental health, plus he sees them less so does actually do things with them now. I now work a more regular job so although I still work I get more time with the DCs, which is quality time -the living room is now a family room rather than an adults room

the dcs are both much more confident, happy and secure

my relationship with the ex is still very rocky, I won't be on my own with him and I don't like him coming to the house but for things like school events we make an effort, and I am very flexible about his access, the dcs know that I am doing everything I can to encourage their relationship with their dad and I'm confident that in the future my dcs will know that they don't have to take sides

I also think each relationship is different. My parents have been married a long time (29 years) and I am 28. I realised yesterday that my DF is abusive to my DM and has been all along. I grew up in an abusive environment where I was physically and emotionally abused and I recognised that a while back but not until after the horrific time I had as a teenager and my own abusive relationship where I had two children. I am frightened often because when there is abuse in a family relationship from the start of your own life you never actually know what horrible things you may remember suddenly. My mother thinks they are very happy (he doesn't hit her, but is extremely volatile and financially abusive although she now earns more than him he controls the money in their joint account and bullies her about spending it) and we have all had a happy childhood, I am just learning now what has happened to me will not necessarily happen to my children because I have not raised them with abuse at home. That is my biggest fear. My DM is in total denial and hides behind having a poor memory, she conveniently forgets everything. My DG has always disliked my DF and my DM thinks this is unfair but I now realise it is probably because of how he treats her. I wish they had not been too religious to divorce.

Having been through what I have I think if you are unfulfilled and you have not been able to make the relationship fulfilling then yes you should divorce before it inevitably escalates to behaviour which will damage you and your children. But overall yes each relationship is different.

Research says what is important to a child is stability, it may seem that divorce might disrupt that but I know from experience that people might seem ok, might even think they are ok but negative relationships or "staying together for the children" teaches children that this is how relationships are and influences what they look for in their initial period of seeking their own relationships. I think it is twofold - stability and providing role models.

My aunt stayed with her husband for 22 years with no sex and a cold relationship, she did this "for the kids", her and her younger daughter suffer with mystery psychological illnesses which cause paralysis which the doctors cannot explain, she also was dependent on alcohol the whole marriage, the oldest is doing better but that is because she is the one who has always held everything together. There was no abuse in their relationship, they just felt unfulfilled by each other and stayed together until the kids went to uni.

This is an interesting topic, I have in the past searched for studies on this but never found anything credible.

I think I came to the decision that my job is to model a healthy relationship. If I didn't want my children to grow up and have a relationship like mine it wasn't good enough. And I didn't want to pretend.