Separation - just need to talk about it

[namechangedthistime]

I'm new here but I'm planning on sticking around, so I've name-changed for my first post. I'm of the male persuasion.

I'm pretty sure I'm intent on heading down the road to separating from my wife of about 15 years. We've got two kids, 6 and 9.

We married in our early 20s and both admit that we were just kids at the time. We've discussed separation many, many times over the years. We're capable of getting along pretty well although on a quite superficial level - by 'getting on' I probably mean 'sitting quite companionably without bickering for a limited time'. We have no real shared interests other than the kids,although we share the same general Guardian-reader values. I feel I probably bore her senseless although I do have a wide range of interests and a yearning passion to experience.

We've never really brought out the best in each other and we wasted the years BC when we had freedom and some disposable income -I'd always wanted to travel, for example, but it didn't interest her. She's a lot less adventurous than me, an upbringing thing I think. We were stagnant even before we settled.

The driving force behind my desire to separate though is sex. There's been no sex or intimate touch or kissing in about 7 years and for years before then it was down to an awkward, unsatisfying once or twice a year.I feel huge, overwhelming resentment, sadness,rejection and disappointment over this and it tends to overshadow a lot of my relationship with her. The sex was never great after the first few months. I don't think I'm bad-looking, good personal hygiene etc and I find my wife very attractive and make an effort to tell her frequently, in a non-manipulative way. She says that she can't imagine sleeping with me and that it 'would be like a close relative'. She says she does have desire but I'm not convinced. I've still got the libido of a 20 year old (and the forearms of a blacksmith).

This year it all seems to be coming to a head. I've been having serious insomnia for the first time ever

Thanks very much for taking the time to post all that, it's a fascinating read. Did things used to be good with you and your wife? Have you got a bank of good memories to draw on - is there a state that you want to get back to? I ask because we kinda haven't. We've been OK and we've had some fun, but we both feel as if we've held the other back and stopped each other from developing into the person they could be. I do admire the efforts you're going to though, you're really working at it.

Do you think your wife would have made any effort to change things if you hadn't?

Your career sounds as if it's in a pretty good place to me - good balance. The career ladder is a slave's delusion, IMHO. My job's interesting some of the time but can also be very distressing and disturbing (a lot of child protection-related stuff), and it's also pretty specialised which means my options for moving on to something less disturbing/a bit different are very limited. This is exacerbated by the area we live in - we settled here against my will, and it greatly limits my options for change without a pretty hideous commute.

Friends - There's a crowd of dads from school and I enjoy the company of some of them, others aren't really my cup of tea. They have fairly regular nights out that I used to go to but stopped a while back - I was finding that I had to really hit the beer to enjoy it, and that's not really me. I could cultivate the ones I click with more, though. Some of that group are the husbands of friends of my wife - her circle is largely based around school.

Cubs/Rainbows etc...they both go and I know it sounds horrible, but I really don't like other people's kids much . The thought of spending an hour a week with a screaming horde of them...I'd rather hammer nails into my eyes. I'm a good dad to my own though

There's stuff I've got planned - I started yoga fairly recently, there are a lot of Continuing Ed classes that I've been itching to get at, and a couple of local voluntary things. I also work with some really good people. I'll be OK with a bit of effort on my part.

Thanks again for posting, Stumpy - good to hear your story.

Can i ask what you mean when you referred to the children as pretty high maintenance

Do you do things as a family which mean you all have fun?

I mentioned earlier my kids being a similar age to yours. When the weather is good we go "geocaching" - this is basically using GPS on phone to find hidden Tupperware boxes (small/medium/large) with "treasure" in them (ie badges, small toys). You are allowed to take some treasure as long as you put something new in. These geocaches are all over the place. The official web site is at www.geocaching.com
We find it an excellent way to get the kids to do some exercise (without them realsing it). We say to them "do yuou want to go on a walk"- the answer would be "no", "Do you want to go looking for treasure" - the answer is normally "yes"

Struwelpeter (just the nick gives me shivers, that's a seriously disturbed mind behind those books!) - I think we've both been depressed for a while. With a lot of stress too. There's no anger but I don't think that it'd be a reasonable response to our situation - we've discussed it so many times and she knows how unhappy I am, it's come as no surprise.

Stumpy - I'm going to book individual counselling on Monday. When I say the kids are high maintenance...their behaviour leaves a lot to be desired, and we often hear them repeating things that we've said to each other that are inappropriate - bringing our crap into their lives, basically. Nothing bad, just our baggage.

Geocaching - meant to go last summer but it didn't happen. It's on the list this time though.

We do go on family stuff but the kids bicker between themselves so much it can spoil the whole day. They're insanely argumentative and competitive.

If i look at the 15 year timeline of our marriage.

We had happy times in first 3 years. married in year 3 and lots of arguing in years 4 and 5 (money). Year 5 was good- had some nice holidays and lots of trying for a baby.
I think year 6 was a tough for my wife. She was off work (maternity for 12 months) and i was working away 5 days a week and was shattered at weekend. Time spent with kid and wife together but not a lot of time for wife and me together
Year 7 and 8 was challenging for wife as she decided not too return to work and start her own business. I did not provide enough support for wife whilst she was trying to get business off the ground.

year 9 had 2nd child. Wife's business was wound up (with abit of debt) - She probably saw in my eyes (i told you so)

year 10/11, - Wife's best friend (lived across the road) moved 40 miles away. At this point we had no social life apart from each other. I got last promotion and i can honestly say my wife probably felt alone/undervalued during this period
During years 10/11/12 wife joined PTA, made friends through school mums, started helping at church. Now some books will say she was attempting to distance herself from me, i think she off her own back decided to get herself some friends and it worked. She also went back to work part timne
We did lots of stuff as family years 10 to 12 but NOT much either my and DH or me and DH and others. Partly due to not having a baby sitter
years 13 - i stopped worrying about never having enough money and started to enlarge my own circle of friends. Girl up the road turned 15 and will baby sit whenever we want
Year 14 - Where we are now. In last 8 months i have not made any snide remarks about what are money has been spent on, not said we cannot do anything due to cost.
In last 8 months we have done the following together.
Wife's 40th birthday (black tie do at local cricket club)
Hosted Eurovision party (everyone got a country and had to come dressed representing that country along with food and drink from their country)
Apres Ski party - some friends went skiing so we decided to have a party for those people like us who had not gone skiing. Did a fondu, dressed in ski clothes, played family ski on Wii
Four of our friends have had 40ths with accompanying parties
Camping with 16 friends and 18 children
A week in London doing the sights
Went with friends to watch local rugby team
Couple of dinner parties.
Couple of BBQs

Separately we have also had our own nights out. ie we are having fun but still no movement on the affection front and loads of nice memories for last 8 months and apart from affection front i am in a state where i am happy (obviously wife isn't).

I think my wife made an effort to change before i did (see years 10-12)

It is interesting question with regards to are me and my wife holding each other back. I know my wife would like to move down to SE (where her brother and mother live). She can probably do better career wise in that area of country. I know a move to me there would mean new job/longer hours/longer commute (and potentially smaller house) - this may be another deal breaker. If we were happy then i would be more prepared for move. But if we move as we currently and then break up then i will be somewhere without any support network. However on the other hand my wife quite likes the fact she can work part time (and get a good wage for it). She works 10 minutes from home, 5 minutes from school. Sometimes she wants a career, other times she wants to be there to get kids at 3:30.

It does sound for yourself that unless you do something about your own situation now then in 5 / 10 /15 years you will resent all the things you wanted to do and didn't. You only have one life to live and i now believe you should try and live it to the full.

For my situation i would rather attempt to save marriage now and if it cannot be saved part on good terms rather than in 5 years time i resent not having the affection/end up arguing over petty things and resent the wasted 5 years where i could have tried to rebuild my life again.

As men we don't normally open up much to other men/our wives/other women (or maybe its just the men i know)
In the last month i have opened up to quite a few people and so has my wife and we have actually discovered that other people's relationships are in worse position than our own but at least we are attempting to do something about.

Am i upset that i am having to leave family home so when kids come over to stay at my place they have limited toys/friends to play with - of course i am. What would upset me more is my kids growing up in an environment where mum and dad are getting increasingly more hostile/resentful to each other which i can see happening now.

OP in your second post you say your father died at the start of summer.
Do you mean summer 2012?

As someone whose parent also died not so long ago can I suggest you give yourself a little time?
I am not diminishing what you say but (in my experience) when a parent dies it blows a huge hole in your world and you want everything to change for the better.
You want things that are 'wrong' to change (at least, I did).
Grieving takes time and for that alone I'm not surprised you're drinking or not sleeping.

I do think your relationship is troubled but I don't know of any woman who would be happy with a lack of sex life.
Can you show her your post?
Emphasise how serious you are?
Try talking before leaving?

I'm not meaning to sound glib, I know you say you have tried all of this before but at this time in particular I would give 'the talk' one last shot.
Apologies if this is not the answer you are after.

Stumpy - just wanted to say I really hope you make your marriage work. You sound like a thoughtful nice guy who made mistakes in your relationship (as everybody does) but have recognised all that and are really working to set it right.

I hope your wife is as committed as you -if so you should have a ball

I often post on this sort of thread a 'leave and be happy' comment. What I'd really like to say is along the lines of what Stumpy said:
i would rather attempt to save marriage now and if it cannot be saved part on good terms rather than in 5 years time i resent not having the affection/end up arguing over petty things and resent the wasted 5 years where i could have tried to rebuild my life again.

Am i upset that i am having to leave family home so when kids come over to stay at my place they have limited toys/friends to play with - of course i am. What would upset me more is my kids growing up in an environment where mum and dad are getting increasingly more hostile/resentful to each other which i can see happening now.

Divorce (esp when DC ar involved) is horrible, painful and destructive.

The same could be said for a bad marriage but it's a slow destructive rather than a bomb like act.

I'd mostly like to say work at your marriage! A good marriage is so precious but needs nurturing. Acknowledge, when it has failed and move on.

Hi OP - I just wanted to post because I really felt moved by your story and really sensed the sadness that you feel. There is nothing more lonely than being in an unhappy marriage. I really understand that.....and the fact that you don't have intimacy must be so frustrating as well as life-draining. Trust me I've been there....feeling like you are slowing dying inside. I have often said to DP that we ought to seperate whilst we are still young enough and be happy with other people. I don't know at all, it is all quite painful....

Sorry I'm not being very helpful, just emphathising. In the end we have agreed an open relationship and I feel alive again

emmieging It sounds like if you stay together, there will be two lives half-lived, whereas if you separate, there's every chance you'll both be able to live fully

Definitely. I've been very inspired by all the people here saying that they feel alive again.

Stumpy - You definitely live a very different life to us. We go out together very seldom and having people round is rare. It's just the way we are together. I could blame it on the kids, but we never did it BC either.

I've got no problem opening up to someone I trust in theory, but when I try to with DW it just seems to get acrimonious straight away with all the mutual guilt and resentment.

lizbee -yes, he died a couple of months ago now. And I know that this is a time of massive upheaval and emotional stress. I'm not feeling anything domestically that I haven't felt for a long time though, and if anything it's intensified - in the brief period that he was ill I needed that intimacy so badlym the warmth of human contact, and it wasn't there.

Deadsouls - thanks for your kind words. I'm glad you're back in the race, although an open relationship isn't for us. Sometimes I think it'd be easier to do things in a more continental style, but neither of us are wired that way.

DW has agreed to do online counselling with Relate now, and feels that I was the one throwing in the towel, not her. Maybe there were some crossed wires, but I was certain that she just wasn't prepared to go to counselling.

I'd feel disloyal and a bit sneaky posting updates etc here now that it's back in the 'active' file, so I'll bow out of this now. Thank you for your support, aeveryone.