Separation - just need to talk about it

[namechangedthistime]

I'm new here but I'm planning on sticking around, so I've name-changed for my first post. I'm of the male persuasion.

I'm pretty sure I'm intent on heading down the road to separating from my wife of about 15 years. We've got two kids, 6 and 9.

We married in our early 20s and both admit that we were just kids at the time. We've discussed separation many, many times over the years. We're capable of getting along pretty well although on a quite superficial level - by 'getting on' I probably mean 'sitting quite companionably without bickering for a limited time'. We have no real shared interests other than the kids,although we share the same general Guardian-reader values. I feel I probably bore her senseless although I do have a wide range of interests and a yearning passion to experience.

We've never really brought out the best in each other and we wasted the years BC when we had freedom and some disposable income -I'd always wanted to travel, for example, but it didn't interest her. She's a lot less adventurous than me, an upbringing thing I think. We were stagnant even before we settled.

The driving force behind my desire to separate though is sex. There's been no sex or intimate touch or kissing in about 7 years and for years before then it was down to an awkward, unsatisfying once or twice a year.I feel huge, overwhelming resentment, sadness,rejection and disappointment over this and it tends to overshadow a lot of my relationship with her. The sex was never great after the first few months. I don't think I'm bad-looking, good personal hygiene etc and I find my wife very attractive and make an effort to tell her frequently, in a non-manipulative way. She says that she can't imagine sleeping with me and that it 'would be like a close relative'. She says she does have desire but I'm not convinced. I've still got the libido of a 20 year old (and the forearms of a blacksmith).

This year it all seems to be coming to a head. I've been having serious insomnia for the first time ever

It sounds to me that she's happy to plod on and you're not. You could give it until september and see if things change but it doesn't sound like they will. I do think you need to talk to her though and let her know that you've had enough and want out. We only get one life and if you're unhappy with yours then make changes. People say that lifes to short but sometimes lifes too long to live it being unhappy.

Wow, I never realised Mumsnet was so talkative! Starting to get too many to reply to by name...

CoteDAzur: "Take her out to the pub. See friends together. Everyone likes to see friends, right?" Meh. I haven't got any friends and her friends are hers, the conversation's all children/school etc - even she finds it a bit banal most of the time. This is one of the reasons I want out - I feel that we've held each other back in so many ways. Maybe I would just sit alone reading every night (not that that'd be such a bad thing!), but I like to think I'd go to evening classes, the theatre start to live and meet people.

It's interesting that it seems so rare to hear people say "I got out and I regret it".

Juneau - the unspoken agreement is that I'll get somewhere and she'll keep the marital home. I think this is important for the kids' stability, but it's also the case that we won't find anywhere much cheaper around here, the kids are in an excellent school and we've got a low mortgage. I've been looking at houses within a mile of the marital home, so that I'm only a few minutes away from the kids and if they want to come over on an 'unscheduled visit' (god, that's a depressing term) they can. I'm utterly, absolutely determined to do right by them and I'm hoping that if we're both more chilled, more at peace, more comfortable with who we are and where we are, then it'll have a beneficial effect on them.

ToothbrushThief - your experience sounds horrible. I think there's a special circle of hell for people who threaten suicide to manipulate another. The sex issue isn't a temporary going-off, it was never great and always wrapped up in a lot of headfuck. For the last decade or so it has been a grudging, very occasional thing - I certainly don't want sex unless it's with fun, mutual pleasure and respect etc. I just can't see that ever happening with DW.

I need to start the day now, but I'll be back on. Thanks for your time and replies, everyone.

I'm normally the first to say "get out" if you're unhappy but September is not a long way off and if you do want to try to revive your marriage you could wait and see until then. Unless there is a pressing need to leave right now a couple of months won't make much difference.

Having said that, what do you hope to achieve from counselling and is your wife's aim/goal similar? If she is only going to please you, there is probably little point in doing it.

I think you sound like a very decent understanding person who has lived in an unhappy situation for far too long already. It is not fair on you, or your wife to prolong the agony, as ultimately you will probably both meet other people that are better suited to you. Counselling is also a complete waste of time unless both parties are completely bought into the process. If your wife doesn't want to go, she won't be.

If I were you I'd go for a trial separation, not an immediate divorce, and see how things go. In the stark light of day you might miss each other, and be able to rekindle the intimacy through 'dating'. Or it may feel like a huge relief and an open door for you both to move on. Either way an unhappy sexless marriage is no future for either of you.

If you're pretty sure you want to go -and you sound sure- then I do believe it can be done with honesty, integrity, even with love. DON'T make going dependent on picking holes in her, blaming her, god forbid an exit affair. You're allowed to leave, make an intention to do it as a decent, compassionate man and father, communicate with her, hear her unhappiness if that's how she feels, but don't take it on. Get some counselling, with someone you trust, too.

I mean counselling for yourself, not necessarily jointly.

Is your wife on MN?

All of this sounds pretty clear cut to me, but I'm wary of the last time I posted on a man's thread and the woman came on and gave a completely different version that showed the man as a complete nutter!

Just a quickie to panicnotanymore and ImperialBlether -

thanks, I think I am trying to be reasonable and compassionate about it but obviously DW would probably have a different take on it. Not very different, I don't think - the facts are all there and I haven't missed out anything major - but obviously the perspective would be different. I was going to add that without ImperialBlether suggesting it, too :-)

I wish she was on here - I'd love to read her version of this post.

Could you try to write a post from her POV? I was taking a creative writing class and we had to write something from the POV of the last person we'd had an argument with. It was quite enlightening.

Post - that's my sworn intention. I'm determined to do anything with kindness, respect and friendship. I'm not emotionally capable of having a relationship with someone new at the moment and have no interest in goin' shaggin'. I don't want to even look at the dating route until everything is tied up and squared off here. I don't want any bad feeling between us if at all possible.

We had a talk this morning and it's looking more positive - DW accepts that this is what I feel we need to do, and knows that the chances are it'll just linger on in the same way if we leave it. I'm going to go to a counsellor, partly to get some advice on logistics and finances. We haven't even mentioned divorce yet.

She's saying that if I've decided to go, she wants me to just go as soon as possible. This is logistically very difficult if I want to stay within walking distance of the kids until I get somewhere more permanent, and I'm not 100% sure it's reasonable. Any thoughts?

Part of the problem with me is that I've always defaulted to the path of least resistance and the quiet life. I think that's why I'm in this situation.

ImperialBlether - that's a daunting notion! It'd be useful to do but I wouldn't post it here. I've missed out a lot of the intimate stuff that led to the decline of the physical relationship, and a lot of her side would involve that too. There's no infidelity or abuse involved, it's just the intimate failures of two people who aren't sexually matched.

Do we put too much importance on the role of sex in relationships? Am I just being a whiney little bitch who my ancestors would be ashamed of? There's a line in a book I read recently that keeps coming to mind: "It is possible that a starving African farmer has less sense of injustice than a middle-aged Western male who has never been fellated." I think there's truth to this. It's not just about the sex with us, though. It's about wasting each other's lives in a suburban Sunday soup of ennui until we look back from our deathbeds and say "Well, that was a bit shit."

Do you believe, at any level, that this relationship can get better enough for you to be happy in it? Do you have only hope at all or do you even want the relationship to survive any more?

If you do have hope, go to counselling on your own even if she won't go, ask her what would change the relationship for the better and make her more able to resume your sex life (dates, do more housework, whatever the issues are from her perspective). But put a date on it in your own mind. If honestly doing whatever you can to change things doesn't work, leave knowing you've tried and get on with it.

If you do not have hope, leave now. What's the point dragging it on if it is over for you?

I found it horribly difficult to end a relationship with my live in partner, so I can only imagine how hard it must be to contemplate splitting up when you have children. However, you've only got one life and you shouldn't spend it in a dead marriage.

Perhaps counselling on your own would help you address why you have settled for less than you really want 'for a quiet life'. Just a thought.

It's about wasting each other's lives in a suburban Sunday soup of ennui until we look back from our deathbeds and say "Well, that was a bit shit."

Sums it up for me NCTT! You have done all you can, but your DW for whatever reason doesn't have the same desire to save your relationship as you do. Do yourselves a favour, both of you, and make the break.

You sound like you will do it fairly and as amicably as possible (mine started that way, but even the friendliest separation can go off the rails when money and children are involved!) and before you know it you will both have a very different and much more interesting life.

I agree with your DW about you moving out ASAP, the few weeks between knowing it was over and H actually moving out were the most painful of all. Find a friend with a sofa or spare room, stay with a relative or just hunt down the cheapest place you can find for 6 months. Then you can start to rebuild your lives separately.

I think the sex thing is a bit of a red herring, its a sign of intimacy and when things are going well in a relationship the sex is good. The fact that it has never been brilliant with you two is a shame but doesn't mean that you have to live with that forever.

I only realised towards the end of my marriage that actually I enjoyed sex and often wanted it but felt unable to initiate it in case my H rejected me (he was a control freak and generally rebuffed any suggestion I made, whether sex, dinner, going out). He would say that I was frigid, but the fact is I wasn't comfortable enough with him to let myself be vulnerable. There are many reasons women (& men presumably? or not?) go off sex with each other, but its usually not a good sign.

Good luck with new life.

that will be good luck with 'your' new life then

I'm 7 months down the path of separation and for me, I am gradually starting to feel more like myself than I ever remember. The intensity of my emotions have surprised me greatly; I think I am slowly waking up from a coma.

Intensity in a good way or a bad way Llareggub?

In a good and a bad way, if I am honest. There have been days when something very minor will make me dissolve into tears, and times when I've found it difficult to keep my temper. I've also resumed a friendship with a very old friend from way back when. I wouldn't call it a relationship at this point but I having lain dormant for so long, my libido is back with a bang! I haven't felt these kind of emotions in years and i have found it quite difficult at times. I've felt great sadness, for example, that I haven't enjoyed sex in years but do now. It is like grieving and being grateful in one confusing mess!

Do we put too much importance on the role of sex in relationships?
I think your focus on sex will diminish, out of the marriage tbh.

I thought all sorts of things about my marriage and it was only a couple of years after separating that I could really unpick how I felt. I'd been married 23 yrs. 15yrs is a long time and you will have written a script in your head to explain things into a way that meant you could deal with it/stay.

Set forth and be your own person. Expect it to be get really bad before it gets better.

I often cry when I orgasm because it's such an emotional moment ... recognising the loss and wasted previous 23yrs

I'm so pleased that you posted that, Toothbrush Thief. It describes perfectly how I felt the first time I had sex following my separation. It has happened to me, too. Luckily I was with a very understanding person....

crazyhead Do you believe, at any level, that this relationship can get better enough for you to be happy in it
Nope, I don't. Really I only wanted counselling so that we could say that we'd tried every avenue and had it declared clinically dead by a pro. But it looks as if that's not necessary now.

tb ^

Perhaps counselling on your own would help you address why you have settled for less than you really want 'for a quiet life'. Just a thought.^
Yeah, I've considered having some sort of therapy/counselling and I think it could do me a lot of good. I'll see how I'm off for time and money.

Doingitformyself I'd agree about sex being a marker of intimacy. That's what I've been missing for so long. I'm sorry to hear about your control freak ex - reading through some of the threads on here has made me realise how lucky me and DW are that neither of us are total arseholes.

Toothbrushthief I think your focus on sex will diminish, out of the marriage tbh. I've used 'sex' here because it's the easiest word, but as I said above it's intimacy that I need more at the moment. I can't even remember sex, kinda dreading that bit.

namechangedthistime - your situation mirrors mine exactly (by the way i'm a bloke)

I had to read twice to work out if the post was my wife posting from my point of view!!

The parallels are kids similar age, legth of marriage. In my case the sex/intimacy has not been there for 4 years.

I raised this with my wife a month ago and said i could not go without intimacy (i don't just mean sex but touching/holding hands/affection)

We had a long and frank discussion where she admitted a number of things (the spark was no longer there, she no longer found me attractive).

we have agreed on a trial separation following advice in a book called

"Should I Stay Or Go?: How Controlled Separation (CS) Can Save Your Marriage by Lee Raffel"

I still fancy my wife and still love her. The book provides advice on how to have a separation with rules.

ie in our case
length of separation (6 months to be reviewed after 3 months)
legal counsel - both agreed not to seek legal counsel; in those 6 months
moving out i will move out into rented 2 bedroomed house within mile of family home - i move in next friday
Division of home furnishings - what can i take into rented house for the period . ie laptop/spare beds etc )note this is not how the divsion of assets will be if we come to divorce)
finances - all spending to come out joint account and any spending over £100 to be agreed by other
children - we will have joint custody of children (me two days during week and alternate long weekends. Days can be swapped if advance notice given. One dinner per week as family (initially away from homes but may move to homes after 1st month). One family afternoon at least twice a month. If we are invited to a friends social event the other should be given opportuntiy of invite (ie friends to still treat as a family/couple). One call per day to speak to children when staying away.
Couples contact
1st month family time only
One phone call per week to discuss children
Unlimited texts/emails re children

2nd month - fortnightly date at neutral location
One phone call per week (each)
Unlimited texts/emails
3rd month onwards - to be negotiated

dating others - No

confidentiality - we have each named a copuple of people we can confide in, everyone else is being told we are tryiong to work out some issues and to treat us as if we are still together re social events

Teamwork/Homework - No discussion of issues in 1st month, no marriage guidance for 1st month. 2nd month to endeavour to have healthy discussion of issues

Now the above may seem a bit "sad" but at least we have some guidelines and agreed boundaries

So where am i now? We have a healthy social life (both together with friends and apart with friends). What has been missing is nights/dates just the two of us. We can talk about lots of stuff. My wife especially has a variety of interests. We have no money issues.

But i adamant i do not want to be in an afffectiontless marriage (for the sake of the kids"

So separation starts next week BUT i have started doing things already.

1. Wife mentioned she did not like my beer belly. I'm stone overweight. In the last three weeks i have started running (actually to be honest its was more walking in the first week) 5km a day four of five times a week (today managed less than 30 mins. 3 weeks ago it was 45 mins!!)

2. Youngest child's bedroom is being decorated. I've actually got off my backside and helped wife strip wallpaper, paint walls (and had fun)

3. When working from home will ring wife at lunchtime to see if she wants to meet for coffee at lunchtime (she works close to home)

4. Spending time chatting to wife about her day/my day when we are at home.

5. Re-evaluating my career. Wife mentioned i used to be career driven but not had promotion in last three years. Now this may the deal breaker. At the moment i enjoy the freedom my job gives me (can work from home to help out with childcare/school runs when i want, i tend to be home by 5:30 most evenings to be at home with family, I work away a couple of days per month and at this moment in time i don't want to go back to working away from home 4 / 5 days per week like i was 6 years ago.
   Discusses with boss training/mentoring needed for next role to allow me to get promotion when i decide take career advancement off hold

6. Joined a few groups via a website called "meetup" so that the weekends i do not have children i keep myself busy. There's a "cinema" group i've joined as well as one that does a number of local walks a week. This should also give me something to talk about when we start on our dates.

7. Reflected on attitude over the years that may have lead to my wife resenting me (ie i was a tight wad with money). I actually made a concious decision to stop being tight 8 months ago but maybe it was 8 years too late!!

8. Come up with a 5 year plan of what i want us (and family to do if we are still together). Now i don't mean its my plan, it's a starter list for my wife and i to discuss and prioritise (happy for her to take off/add) This covers holidays i want us to do as a family as well as weekends away as a couple, new kitchen, decide whether to stay in existing house or move, new front door, replace guttering, new TV.

Will the above all work - who knows. But at least i can look myself in the mirror and my children in the eye in years to come and say i did not just go but tried everything to get marriage kick started again.

It's not until you come on Mumsnet and discover how common it is for the "sex/affection to go in marriage"

While i remember you mention not having friends. If your wife has friends do they have boyfriends/husbands. Do you get on with them when you see them? 9 months ago my circle of male friends was very small where i lived. What i did was realise i enjoyed meeting the partners of my wife's friends. So when wife and her friends arranged a girlie night out before xmas i got in touch with the husbands/partners and arranged for us to go for Xmas curry. We had a whale of a time and we now have a "boys" night on the last saturday of every month. I also got 5 of them to meet me at local pub for quiz night (we now go out of our way to make sure we are free on a Wed so we can make quiz). They all have children so regularly all of us (husbands/wives/girlfriends/boyfriends) meet up for joint stuff with kids (ie go to local carnivals and have a picnic, bbqs. Everyone came round to ours to watch Murray lose tennis the other week. Adults drank whilst kids played outside). Now it may appear that all our social events involve drink but a couple of the husbands are tee-totallers and enjoy the boys nights out.

At our age (i'm 42) you assume everyone already has a circle of friends and their is a barrier to breaking into a new circle. I actually found out that the 5 people i now call my closest friends (who were partners of my wife;'s friends) all had friends spread over country but no one in local area.

Your kids are 6 and 8 (do they do rainbows/brownies/scouts) - if they do volunteer to help. If they don't volunteer to help.

best of luck and i hope whatever you decide to do works out the best for you in the long run.

Apologies to everyone else for the length of post!!

Wow Stumpy, think you need for having a real plan of action and putting it into practice.
Guess difference between you and OP is that it sounds like your DW is open to suggestions for positive change.
OP think counselling for you alone would be really good to explore who you are and what you want to be in the future. It is worth the time and the money. Relate don't just do couples and have the advantage that you can go as a couple at a later date even if it is just to separate amicably. Is your DW depressed too? If there is no anger but just resignation then that could be an issue?

Struwelpeter - my post reads positively but in all honestly i am not 100% convinced my wife is 100% committed to getting us back on track and she may just be wanting to control how we separate and already knows she wants out and nothing i do will change her mind.

However i will accept the flowers and will put them in virtual vase on desk next to PC monitor.

I also agree that individual counselling may the answer for OP. I have told my wife that if things are not looking good by month 4 i reserve the right to go counselling (to help me get focussed in the potential permananent separation and allow me to focus on the things i need tp do to make the transition as smooth as possible to allow my DW and myself to part amicably and ensure the kids are not put in middle.)

For me, the most telling thing in your posts is that you recognise you aren't good for eachother. You hold eachother back.

It sounds as though you both recognise on some level that your relationship is going nowhere, and one of you needs to be brave enough to be the one to make the break. I wouldn't be at all surprised if your wife subsequently finds that she can cope with life better. eg you say she gets very stressed with life and can't even hold down a job easily. In a way, the fact that you are cushioning her, is holding her back. Once she's pushed into a position of having to cope with things, she'll find the strength to do so. And vice versa - I bet a lot of the things you've been dreaming about will come to fruition.

It's sad that you can't fulfil your own potential as individuals while staying a couple, but sometimes people just can't, despite whatever your intentions were when you married.

It sounds like if you stay together, there will be two lives half-lived, whereas if you separate, there's every chance you'll both be able to live fully