Rah! need to offload re toxic family

[luzluz]

Sorry, just need to loudly and publicly offload, no need to answer, it is nice to write it all down and put it out there.

Mother (refuse to write DM) goads me into arguments and always manipulates the situation to ensure that she is left looking like the victim. i am sick sick sick of being manipulated. I generally keep my distance but now and again a family event will mean I am drawn in temporarily and forget how to manage the situation. I'm left feeling ashamed and angry.

Brother, evil narc, also learnt this method of getting at me and applied it at will (cut him off yrs ago but still tries to get messages to me through M).

Father (now dead) had serious personality disorder and was completely insane and abusive on many levels.

Grandmother (now dead) evil narc.

How am I still alive and somewhat sane? I have lovely DH and wonderful DC.

RAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sympathy to all of you out there suffering the same. If I don't write all this stuff down i start to doubt myself.

Feel better now

It helps to get it out there, doesn't it?

It's good that you recognise when you're being manipulated in a toxic relationship. Sad when it's your own family. But it feels great when you finally rid yourself of them.

I swear, for the first time in decades I feel sane, since writing my toxic family off in the first few months of last year.

A strange thing happened when I did.

I became a more open and nicer person with it.

Your DH and your DC are your family now. Cut off your mum and enjoy your new life!

((((HUG))))

I think you know what you have to do. Close the final door... Go NC with them all.

I know it's hard, positively sick making, but you know they will never change...

Your family sound very much like mine. I closed the door to my toxic family over 18months ago now and like Damsel I became a much nicer person, not just nicer but I became the person I wanted to be.

It was so liberating.

I know what you mean about doubting yourself but that is what a toxic family are really good at.....making it seem like it's all you. I sometimes wondered if it was just me that was insane and they were all normal

Have you ever looked at the website 'daughters of narcissistic mothers'? It's really good and I use it when I'm doubting myself.

Thanks for all your replies so sorry that others out there know what I mean though. i hate the way that going NC would mean/already means knowing there is this group of people out there that hate me so much for protecting myself.

Just seems so crazed that I am in this position. I am about to move 4 hours drive away from them all so that will really help. I am going minimal contact and will write a 'things to remember' to read before every phone call/meeting.

My M goes through periods of calm where we can rub along but then springs it all on me again just when I've let me guard down. She is just a very screwed up person and I do feel very sorry for her terrible life experiences but there is no way i would ever act like this around my kids.

Having your own children definitely changes your perspective.

Onwards and upwards everyone!

let my guard down - went all olden days yorkshire there...

mampam I'll look at the website, she is not a narc - more dissociative identity - the everyday functioning identity is generally ok to be around but often slips into another personality which is quite devious/spiteful and finds me very threatening because i refuse to go along with her made up version of reality (otherwise I would go insane). Her real identity (only seen once or twice) - tells me 'never to doubt myself' and agrees with my version of events. Very frightening. She has suffered very serious and long term abuse in her life to get to this point.

Everyone thinks they are so normal. M and B hold down good jobs and are middle class. But are high functioning high grade lunatics behind closed doors.

I really do have to write all this down or I would go mad! Have had counselling for many years to get to this point and create a life of my own. Still massively lack confidence but i am able to get on with life and love my family. DH is a rock and he and his family are invaluable in validating my point of view as they see it all first hand.

thehappy and damsel how did you cope with going non contact?

I can't imagine complete cut off - stupid isn't it?

Sorry this thread getting v. long with my own posts!

'My M goes through periods of calm where we can rub along but then springs it all on me again just when I've let me guard down'

I recognise this! The inconsistency does my head in. If someone was vile all the time, you could get your head around that quite easily, and NC would be a no-brainer. But at times, my parents can be rather lovely and this just leads me to doubt myself again massively. I'm struggling this week and it seems like I'm in good company It helps so much to hear other people are going through the same thing.

OP, a 'things to remember' list sounds great. I always run through something similar in my head before every phonecall but writing it down would help a lot.

'I can't imagine complete cut off - stupid isn't it?'

I just can't imagine it either - I feel like the guilt might actually kill me. Just the thought brings on a whole chorus of voices - 'how could you do this to your parents?', 'don't you know what they have sacrificed for you?', 'how can you break their hearts like this?', 'don't you know you're their whole world?'

lotta yes yes yes!

Lovely to speak to someone in the same boat. It is the nice times that make it so hard for me to cut it all off. I would feel so guilty and my kids love her (I am careful about their contact and have set hard fought boundaries with her).

It's just so sad that no matter what i do part of her is determined to undermine me because i don't go along with her stupid version of reality.

I realise she would go into catastrophic melt down if her real personality ever took the executive

Cutting them off is not something to be taken lightly and I don't suppose you have reached the stage where you can. I have been through all the same thoughts and feelings as you and have had periods of 6 months at the most where I haven't had anything to do with my parents and then things just carried on as normal. I never thought of these periods as permanent just 'taking a break' from the madness of it all.

This time however I do think of it as permanent. It was different this time as I felt like I had no other choice. If I carried on having a relationship with my parents I truly believe that I would have had some sort of mental breakdown. I was in counselling at the time and it helped me to see that it was ok to put myself first for once instead of living my life pandering to my mother or having her have such a hold over me that I struggled to make my own choices without being manipulated somehow.

Anyway sorry for waffling on the point I'm trying to make is that if you have all those doubts about cutting off your family then you probably aren't really ready to do that at this point.

Thanks mampam not waffling very helpful

I would like some distance from them for a while, feel as if I won't get as drawn in when we move away as at the moment they are a 10 minute drive away.

I have complete non contact with B which causes loads of issues around why I won't reconcile with him (if I did I would have a breakdown - my kids come first).

My M is not as remorseless in her messing about, it is much more hidden, which means cutting off would seem v. extreme to everyone else and it would mean i would lose contact with other non-toxics like my lovely half-B.

I think a manageable middle ground will have to be living miles away and keeping a 'things to remember' list nearby. At least I will have more time to prepare as there'll be less spontaneous get togethers and we can stay elsewhere when we come back to visit.

Luzluz, my family were so abusive and for years I suffered from "beaten dog syndrome". I sort their approval for some mad reason. Then my father died and the whole septic boil erupted and I distance myself from them all. I've never been happier. Honestly.

Damsel really sorry to hear all you've been through but glad you have some peace now. My life is so much better now that I have B out of it.

'I know what you mean about doubting yourself but that is what a toxic family are really good at.....making it seem like it's all you. I sometimes wondered if it was just me that was insane and they were all normal'

Damn it, I know it isn't me but I hate the feeling that it will be made out by everyone to be 'all me' if I did cut them off.

Would also miss the good guys as they wouldn't understand - it has always all been carefully crafted towards me and no one else -because all the other players go along with it.

How do you deal with seeing those people you want to see but won't understand? My DB is only 16 so too young to cut off. My step dad is ok really but has no idea what goes on between me and my M as she is careful to only do it when we're alone. My DH says that SD is married to my M's functional day to day personality. SD really has no idea what we all went through at the hands of my D and GP's before he came along so it all seems like fuss about nothing 'M and daughter stuff' to him.

Writing that down has just made me realise how much she does do this only when we're alone. she pretends to be so nice but is so manipulative. If i ever challenge her she goes straight into victim mode and acts as if I am some sort of monstor agressor - when really i'm just calmly saying I don't agree with some sort of dig she's made.

It is like dealing with a little girl and I wish she would act like the grown up for once - but this is never going to happen.

I hate the way it is dismissed as mother and daughter stuff!
The fact is that my mother is utterly toxic, the shit she has caused, and is still causing is unbelievable! Her poison has cost me my relationship with my brothers, because it would be much more convenient for them if I shut up and put up Frankly anyone who expects me to put up with her abuse can go to hell with her!

I feel better for saying that

'If i ever challenge her she goes straight into victim mode and acts as if I am some sort of monstor agressor - when really i'm just calmly saying I don't agree with some sort of dig she's made'

Same with my M - she just cannot be challenged in any way. Ever. Any hint of negativity or criticism is treated as a full on attack which she responds to by playing the victim/martyr, followed by the silent treatment which can last for months on end. Despite the guilt that I feel, it's actually easier to have low contact with her than to have to walk on eggshells around her or be treated as her dumping ground for all the grief around her shit relationship with my dad. I do feel sorry for her because she is such a miserable, lonely person but I'm realising that there is absolutely nothing I can do to make her happier - it's all down to her, but she will never change

Lotta sometimes people are lonely because of the way they treat others. That is why my mother is so very lonely, she isolates herself by being unpleasant

Scary, isn't it, how similar these people are? Mine also perpetuate this kind of Cult Of Normal where only they are Normal and everyone else is Weird. Like normal is even something to aspire to! It's good to offload the insanity sometimes.

luzluz, what you say about all the different levels your mother operates on really resonates with me.

My mother is sort of OK in her day to day persona, and like yours has very occasionally recognised the truth of what I say and what really happened in our family, but she is incapable of sustaining that awareness. It is literally too much for her.

And if I push things, and refuse to play along with the charade that we're a wonderful, warm, loving family and nothing "that bad" ever really happened - if I won't sacrifice my own needs and identity in order to make her feel OK, as I was always expected to do - then her everyday persona disappears and the bully appears, shrieking away like a demented chicken, making herself out to be the victim and the martyr, and generally furious at me because I won't obey her.

I have been NC with all my family for some years now. It was very hard to do - still is, I won't claim it's easy or that it made my life loads better overnight - but I really felt I had to do it for the sake of my own sanity and self respect. The bullying and EA in my family came not just from my mother but from my father and only sibling (older brother) too, and three against one is just too much. I continue to stay NC in order to protect myself and my own family; as others have said, I have to put my DC first, and myself.

I do however mangage to maintain a relationship with my niece and nephew and have done so for about six years now, since they were teenagers and old enough to travel to see me by themselves. They are now 21 and 19 and last week my niece phoned me to tell me her degree result within 20 mins of finding out herself, and I like to think that says something about the relationship we have.

It is very, very hard to keep up, and it nearly kills me sometimes - the fact I am estranged from the whole of the rest of the family is plainly the elephant in the room - and I do wonder sometimes how long it can reasonably go on like this, but for now it's just about working and DS loves seeing his big cousins, albeit rarely.

I know a niece and nephew are very different from a DB, but I've included this just in case it has any relevance to you re your relationship with your younger brother, seeing as he too is now old enough to have an independent relationship with you, if that is what you wished. But am not trying to push going NC on you! It's such a huge decision and although some things are similar, each person's situation is actually different. I don't think there is ever one universal "one size fits all" solution.

Totally understand your need to rant. Ranting is good

Hi Op

I too have a toxic mother and I have very little to do with her and when I do I refuse to be alone.

My DF comes from a loving family and it took him a long time to stop trying to get me to get along and supports me. Although he sometimes slips there is no pressure for me to have a relationship.

So now when we are obliged to see her he is always with me. And,bless him, he controls most of the conversation.

If she is only showing her nasty side to you then cut her off. Don't be alone with her, always have someone there, whether that be your DH or even a friend.

For a while my mother complained about not seeing me alone and after a particularly nasty spiteful conversation, I don't give her any opportunity to complain. or see me alone.

'Mine also perpetuate this kind of Cult Of Normal where only they are Normal and everyone else is Weird'

I'd never thought about it in this way twinkle but I love this idea! Not 'love it' of course, because it's horrible and upsetting, but it sums up so much about my family. They are so bloody negative about everything - everything and everyone that deviates from 'their way' is WRONG. They tend to put people into the 'good' box or the 'shit' box - there is no middle ground. It's just insane-making to be around it for any length of time. And I lived with it for donkeys years, knowing something was wrong, but having no idea what it was.

Thanks twinkle. The Cult of Normal - I will remember that

Hi OP I am so with you on this. My mother is a total nightmare and has been for years but is getting worse and it is all coming to a head at the moment. I am beginning to think that no contact will be the only viable solution. I have 3 young children and a very supportive but fed up husband.
My parents only live 10 minutes away and I am so dreading bumping into them whenever I go out. I don't answer the phone anymore. It is ridiculous but unless you are going through it yourself people don't understand. It just isn't how families are supposed to be.
What do you put on your list of 'things to remember' when communicating with her? I have read some of the 'daughters of narcissistic mothers' website and it is so like my mother that in a way it is a relief to know that I am not imagining things. My father has totally become her enabler which is so sad. I just hope we can all be brave enough to move forward.

Bless you all for responding! I am very grateful for every post. It's been a shitty weekend and I'm starting to feel much better hearing these stories.

I did start reading the daughters of narcissistic mothers web site and I was actually quite shocked at how much resonated with me. I am certainly seen as responsible for her emotional wellbeing and have been since the age of about 4 - no such support from her to me though.

On my list of things to remember will be stuff like:

DON'T rise to the digs she is adept at drawing you into an argument so that she can overreact and play victim

You already KNOW she is going to drop a blatant lie/fantasy in at some point - this really annoys you so just let it slide - this doesn't mean you validate/agree with it

Just say non-committal things like 'I see' a lot

Move the conversation quickly to something else (strangely she never resists too much if i do this)

She is not rational and you won't win so distract her with meaningless chit chat

Be prepared that she is never going to change and that by maintaining contact with her you are simply engaging with the ok personality on a sort of friend level

She is not capable of the same sort of love and care you feel for your children so get disappointed about that another time certainly not in front of her

Don't let your guard down - just when you're feeling safe and in control it will all blow up again

And don't let you guard down again ad infinitum

Let's hope I bloody listen to it in future, used to work ok previously but life quite stressful with MIL and DD1 illness at the moment and I got distracted probably hoped for a bit of a let off.

Thanks for sharing that, luzluz , maybe I should stick that inside the fridge or somewhere! (Tend to hide in the kitchen if parents visit)

Lotta the Cult Handbook helpfully outlines the following.

NORMAL:
Mother
Her mother
Her brother
Her husband (sometimes)
Her son

WEIRDOS:
Foreign people
Black people
Gay people
Graduates
Young people
Vegetarians
Southerners
Basically anyone else