How do I broach this with my mum??

[FlamingGalar]

This issue has been hanging over my head for quite some time now and I am desperate for a few wise words that may help me embark on a talk I have to have with my Mum. I apologise for the garbled post and typos in advance!

I wanted to give you a bit of background first so I'm not accused of drip feeding - although it may make for a rather long post!

My mum and dad split up when I was 11. My Dad has always been a difficult and abusive man. My mum was emotionally and physically abused and controlled by him since the birth of my eldest brother. She has to wear clothing up to her neck and down to her ankles. If my mum took us to the beach there had to be a huge clean up operation to ensure all traces of sand were removed form the car as beach = beachwear and it would cause my dad to fly into a rage. We regularly witnesses beatings and black eyes etc.

He was also a heavy handed father and we were terrified of him. He had a particular vendetta against my second brother (I'm one of 4) and was cruel to him often. We are all redheads and my Dad found that difficult to accept - his Dad (my Grandad) also had red hair and was a tyrant and a bully towards his own family. Dad found it too much of a reminder of the genetic tie with his father, I think.

After my Dad left us (for his secretary - what a cliche!) we had little contact with him. His choice I hasten to add, although he probably did us a favour.

When I was four I was abused by an older cousin who was 16 at the time. Needless to say this has had a profound effect on the way I formed relationships with men - and particularly now I have children. My mum his aware of the abuse and has been as supportive of me as she can be. The cousin is her closest sisters son and she finds it difficult to know how to deal with it I think.

Anyway, on to the matter in hand. I think my mum has always felt a certain amount to guilt surrounding her "choice" of father for us. She has been with her current partner for the past 16 years and has always tried to cultivate a father / daughter relationship between us. As much as I like him as a person, I have never felt close to him in that way. He's always been very accepting and supportive of us all but that bond just never formed. He has two of his own children.

When I had my own children (2 dds) My mum worked hard at pushing a close grandad - granddaughter relationship between my daughters and her partner. Something I've never felt truly comfortable with - call it a gut feeling.

At our wedding my mums partner was obviously there with his children, one of whom is female. When the evening came round everyone was drunk and having a good time. Some people were asking me who the couple were with the obviously huge age gap. This "couple" turned out to be my mums partner and his daughter. People were genuinely shocked to find out they were father and daughter as they were very flirty and touchy feely. My mum was totally aware of all these goings on and was understandably pretty upset about it all.

My mum talked about it to my parents in law as they have experience working with families and family psychology. My mm has always had a problem with the nature of her partners relationship with his daughter. His daughter is very jealous of any other woman in his life and most of the over sexualised behaviour does come from her - though he does little to quell it. My mum also told my oil about her partner's daughter admitting to her that her first sexual experience was with her brother (his son).

So my dhs parents then approach my dh to say they are very concerned about our girls being left alone with my mums partner as all this over sexualised behaviour within a family is a red flag for sexual abuse and we should be very careful with our 2 dds around my mums partner. My mil has extensive experience working in this field so obviously my dh took on what she said.

At the time my husband was in full blown alcoholism and drug addiction so he didn't deal with it the best way possible. But thats a whole other thread! The upshot is that we decided the girls could never be left alone with my mums partner. We couldn't take that risk. My abuser was a well trusted member of my family so I know that if there is any doubt at all about someone the risk is not worth taking.

My mums partner really does love our girls and they love him too - maybe a little too much for comfort actually. There is a particular bond between him and my youngest, who is a real tomboy and loves foraging in the woods etc. My mums partner is a hunting shooting and a fishing kind of man, so they really do have fun together. I'm not comfortable with them going off together and always make sure either myself or my husband are around when they go off on these little excursions. I do feel that sometimes he tries to engineer "alone time" with the girls which I ensure doesn't happen.

I have explained to my mum that her partner spending time with the girls alone makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't want it to happen. Obviously I haven't given her the real reason but used the psychological scars of my own abuse as the excuse for this. She seemed to listen well and take it all in and be very understanding but the next time we went to visit my mum actively encouraged my youngest to go off with him alone. I was seething. It demonstrated how little I could actually trust her to implement my wishes. They didn't go off together by the way - I made sure of that.

So now my mum and her partner keep pushing for the girls to come and stay on their own. They have promised it to the girls personally who are both really excited at the prospect of it. They love my mum and she is the most wonderful loving Granny to them. I have no doubts about leaving them with my mum alone, but just not with her partner.

Her only other two Grandchildren have recently moved to Austrailia and she is missing them terribly. They used to stay with her a lot - and yes, I did tell my sis in law about our issues with mums partner. She is desperate for my girls to come and stay with her and I just don't know how to tell her it's not going to happen. It will totally shatter her.

I really do like my mums partner I should add. He is a sweet and kind man who is a lovely grandfather figure to our girls. I just can't shake this gut feeling that our girls must never be left alone with him - and nor can my husband. My mum won't stay in her house when her partner isn't there as she is too scared to be there on her own, so having the girls there when he is away is not an option.

Mum is coming to stay tomorrow so I'm thinking I will have to talk to her about it then. I am a bit of a bull in a china shop with emotional issues though and I really don't want to hurt her.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Any wise words would be so very appreciated.

I think you just have to trust your gut. Although that may make for some difficult conversations, gut instinct should be trusted.

Thanks for your reply hilly. I am trusting my gut - I just need a bit of help with how to have that conversation without hurting my mum too much.

Definitely trust your gut instinct that is for sure. As hillyhilly said, it will make for very uncomfortable conversations, especially with your mum.

I do have one question though. I don't get the input given by the IL's. The abuse you sadly went through happened when you were four, whilst your means dad were together. You say they split when you were 11. Therefore you mums partner wasnt about when this all happened, some time after. So I don't get the over sexualised part as he was apart of the family then. Unless there is abuse in his family history?

Just semantics I suppose, but I do feel bad for him that your IL's have tarnished him with a brush that may be completely unwarranted. Given your past experiences I am sure that hearing that type of information/opinion from someone close will stick in your head. Will be incredibly hard to shake off and also, could be very damaging. You don't want your aniexty to rub off onto your little ones and they go on to suspect all men a up to no good, iykwim.

Ultimately though you do have to trust your opinions and be honest with your mum.

Good luck.

Flaming, you are doing the right thing by trusting your gut and wanting to protect your children.
I understand that saying to your Mum that you have a gut feeling about her Partner would obviously not go down well at all, so maybe you could say to her that because of your past experiences you are not comfortable with leaving your children with him alone. That you understand that your Mum might think you are being silly, but that she needs to respect that it is your decision and as much as she might not understand it, that she needs to adhere to your decision.
And you will absolutely not accept your Mum needing to prove that you are being silly by letting your children spend time alone with her Partner. She needs to accept that, or face breaking your trust.

*whilst your mum and dad were together.

Me too. I mean I would trust your gut feeling - and I am a survivor of sexual abuse, too.

I wouldn't tell her that it is because of him. You have no proof of him doing anything untoward and I imagine it would be deeply upsetting for both him and your mum if he were to be suspected of such. That said you do have a concern, a gut feeling and when in doubt i would go with it. You can explain to your mum you do not feel comfortable with the girls being alone with him or anyone else. She may see it as a bit alarmist but let her believe that, it will do her far less harm than saying something unfounded that can't be taken back. Explain that is the way it is and you don't feel the need for further conversation about it, make a cuppa and plan a family day together so the girls get to spend time with them both.

Flaming, another vote for trusting your gut. I think in your post you say that you have spoken about the scars of your abuse to your mum; and that you used this as an excuse for not allowing DDs to be with (?) step-grandad.

Ramp this up a bit; say that you are not comfortable with them being alone with any man; that you expect her to accede to your wishes for your DC; that not doing so will cause irreparable damage to your relationship with her (it will).

I cannot imagine how you could bring up with your mum, that you have concerns about the sexualised behaviour of her partner towards young girls. When you bring it up, expect that she will reject your assessment and defend him. But you will have sown a seed and (hopefully)it will make her wary for your kids.

ALWAYS trust your gut feeling..Maybe your mother thinks by sending them off alone with him she can 'prove you wrong?'

No matter how uncomfortable the situation...Trust your gut. FYI just what you've written gives me chills about him.

You are absolutely doing the right thing but its obviously really hard to do it without upsetting your mum.

I would initially stick with the line that your previous experiences of abuse make you uncomfortable with her dpi being alone with the children, but make it crystal clear to her that if she cannot respect your wishes you will not feel able to leave your children alone with her.

If you feel able to it May be worth trying to open conversation with your mother about the dynamics in her dps family. often people (like you now) have a sense that something is wrong but they push it to the back of their mind or try to explain it away. perhaps if given then chance to talk about it your mother may start to recognise that the behaviour between dps and daughter is inappropriate.

however this may be difficult for you as such conversations could trigger memories of your own abuse.

You are being very strong and very kind to your mother and Her dp. You sound like a great mother and I'm sure you will do all you can to ensure your dc are safe.

Take care of yourself in all of this too as it can't be easy for you!

Flaming I re read my post and I sound very critical and not very helpful, I'm sorry.

An idea about for talking about this with your mum given you mention your bull in china shop tendencies could be to write what you want to say as a letter. That way you can ensure you get everything down you want to say and explain. You can re read to your hearts content and get it just right. (definitely agree with ours opinions about not citing your mums partner and that he gives you a bad feeling). When your mum comes over you can explain to her that you really need to talk about an issue but am aware they you can be a bit 'bull in china shop' and hope that you can read her your letter and then talk at the end.

May be a dull idea but one none the less! :)

"My mum talked about it to my parents in law as they have experience working with families and family psychology. My mm has always had a problem with the nature of her partners relationship with his daughter."

So - there is already a small seed of doubt in her mind about him already then. Although not related to your DDs, OP, only, at the moment, with regard to his own. Let this give you strength to open a chat with her about how you feel. It's not as if he has a totally clean slate in her eyes if that makes any sense.

Another vote here for trust your instinct. I good idea above about writing what you want to say down. Write it more than once. In different ways. Not as a script - but just as if you were able to say exactly what you want to say without fear. After a few goes you hopefully will have an idea of what to say. While you are saying it you will remember your writings and it will help you stay on track.

Good luck op hugs

Thank you all for your responses.

Cracked - The abuse I suffered at four and the potential abuse in my mums partners family are two separate issues. My mil was suggesting that the over sexualised behaviour displayed by the close family members in my step dads family could signal a history of abuse within their family unit.
You are absolutely right about my mums partner being potentially unfairly labelled by my in laws. I have felt anger directed towards them because of this - especially because they told my husband about it and didn't approach me also. My mil (without outing myself too much) chaired an organisation that places abused children in foster care for many years. She was also a social worker and is well trained in spotting signs of sexual abuse. She wasn't implying that our girls had been abused - just that there were red flags that we should beware of. You're right that it could be very damaging and I am desperate to avoid that happening. I really do like my mums partner a lot and the girls love him. I also feel guilt that I may be depriving the girls of a very special relationship if my gut instinct is wrong.

I should also add quickly that I have never seen my mums partner display over sexualised behaviour with young girls. His daughter is in her thirties. He has never been inappropriate with my two dds either. the closeness of their relationship does make me uncomfortable though and I can't deny that to myself.

Lurking - there is almost certainly an element of Mum wanting to "prove" that all men aren't pedophiles. I feel that very strongly. I can see that she is trying to cure me of my anxieties but she is like a bull in a china shop and it makes me retreat more from her and trust her less. I guess I should include this in our conversation.

Thank you all for your wise words. They have been very helpful in planning how I am going to approach this conversation tomorrow. I will put more emphasis on how my past experiences have made me uncomfortable with my girls being alone with men in general and really push that point home.

I would never have told her about my specific doubts about her partner. I think it's unlikely there is really anything to be concerned about - I just have a niggling gut feeling. Call it 10% doubt which I feel must listen to.

The other issue is that I don't think my partner will be easily persuaded to trust my mum in her convictions. He is more resolute in his decision not to let the girls stay there alone that I am. He and my mums partner have never got on well anyway. Much of that stems from my dhs treatment of myself and my mum when he was in full blown addiction.

Flaming how much counselling have you had?

You come from an abusive family, where you witnessed domestic violence between your parents, and were on the receiving end of violence from your father.
You were sexually abused by a family member, and your mother, although sympathetic, still hangs out with this branch of the family.
Your husband is a drug and alcohol addict.
And there is incest in your step-dad's family: his daughter and son have slept together, and there is noticeable sexual flirtation between him and his daughter.

Incest, addiction, and abuse all run in families, as one generation hands its issues down to the next, with devastating effects. And the cycle gets repeated unless someone wakes up and removes themselves from the dance of dysfuntion. The dysfunction will carry on, but at least that alert individual who distance herself and her children has a chance at a healthier life.

I'm not surprised you want to keep your daughters away from your step-father.

Don't you also want to keep them away from all of these dysfunctional individuals? Their influence and example is damaging to children. All of them: not just incestuous step-dad.

Crackednipples as l understand it the OP means the DD of her mums partner seems to be the one instigating the inappropriate sexualised behaviour between father and daughter. I think her concern is that he does little to discourage this behaviour from his own daughter so could be a risk to her two young DDs.

OP you say your mum was very upset by her partners and his daughters inappropriate behaviour at your wedding and that she has already got a problem with it - hence she spoke to your in-laws. So it's not as if you are upsetting your mum with some new outrageous insinuation that had never entered her mind. So could you not just be honest with her and say it is because of that situation as it obviously worries her too so she should understand your worries/protectiveness with regard to your own DDs.

Over simplifying I think maybe sorry but your mum has already sought advice/help with this 'worrying' relationship of her DP and his DD. You would simply be telling her your worries about the same situation and your conclusion to it (i.e. no 'alone' time with your DDS).

Writing it down is a really great idea. I often lose my train of though when attempting to get an important point across so that would really help me to say everything I meed to say.

My daughters do stay with their other set of gps fairly regularly. I suspect that my mum is a little jealous of this which is why she is pushing so hard for the girls to come to her to stay. I have no qualms about the girls being alone with their other grandad at all.

Yes my mum thought the relationship between her partner and his daughter was "odd" for a long time. She discussed it continually for months on end then made the decision to "let it go". Mum is the master of sweeping things under the carpet.

Sorry meant to add that in return for you respecting her choice of DH and it is her decision to stay with him or not etc etc but she must in return respect that it is your decision what steps you take to protect your DDs from any possible situation.

Hot - Yes I am very aware of this as a family disease and am at pains to stop the cycle. My abuser lives on the other side of the world and my mum has no contact with him at all. This is her decision after learning about the abuse. She told me she would support me in any route I wanted to go down in regards to the abuse and she is now supporting me fully in my decision. My Aunt has no idea that her son is an sexual abuser of children and I have no desire to shatter another persons world with this revelation. She has her own guilt surrounding his childhood. I have a large and complicated family on my mothers side. We are a loving, caring and largely functional unit - I don't subscribe to the one bad apple theory. I have no desire or need to cut them all off just because of one disturbed individual. I wouldn't want my mum to cut off her family on my behalf, she has no reason to. They have no idea about the abuse.

My mum has had no counselling to deal with the news that her daughter was abused by her nephew so deals with it in the only way she knows how. She is a fantastically loving and supportive mother and I am lucky to have her.

I have had counselling and get enormous support through alanon.

My dh is in recovery and is doing brilliantly. We have a happy, settled family life. The children and thriving and my dh is a fabulous father. It was tough for a long time and I have no doubt that the children will have beared a few scars but have been honest with them in a child appropriate way. I would like to think that we are a good example that there can be a healthy family life after addiction. My husband and I are working hard to break the cycle of the family disease but only time will tell.

I have no contact with my father.

So all in all I think my daughters don't have too much exposure to dysfunction these days. I do understand where your comments come from however.

Mindyourown - I fear mum will get incredibly defensive if I mention the father daughter relationship issue - if only because she won't want to be reminded of it. I wonder if bringing it up would just back her into a corner when I really need her to "get" what I'm saying to her.

Ahh right l see - l just thought as she is already aware/upset about it etc.and obviously has her own coping mechanism (sweeping it under the carpet at the moment it seems) then she should be able to accept yours (i.e. lone contact ban).

I did say l was probably over simplifying sorry. You obviously know your mum a lot better than me and what you can and cant say to her.

Just a thought but there is a possibility that deep down she does know the real reason (DH is a 'head in sand' kinda person so he does this - knows exactly what's wrong sometimes but goes into denial then he doesnt have to deal with whatever it is ).

I think all you can do is stick to your guns and if your mum does eventually challenge you as to why then - but only then - maybe come clean - remind her it was something after all she herself had concerns about.

Best of luck anway. Anything concerning families can be so complicated cant it ? as everyone is interlinked so you cant usually just walk away or detach without losing one or two you didnt want to in the crossfire !

I can't really add much beyond 'trust your instincts'. In your place, I would very strictly limit the extent and type of contact that your daughters had with your mother's partner.

I'm also a survivor and I do feel my mother sometimes insinuates that I am too anxious about this kind of thing. It is I think vitally important not to ignore any sense of unease because of that argument. You may be reading too much into the situation (but your PIL, with their professional experience, clearly don't think so, which is very significant), but then your mother may be reading too little into it, out of her own complex feelings of guilt and not wanting to face uncomfortable truths. My mother can be the queen of denial, which surely affects her perceptions and willingness to address them at least as much as my history affects mine.

I do think it is very important that your mother's feelings, and those of her partner, do not assume centre stage here. The safety and wellbeing of your children is the key issue.

Although this isn't something I know a lot about, I really think your alarm bells are going off properly here. If I've read this right, the daughter's first experience was with her brother (!) which is incest, and the father has difficulties with keeping appropriate boundaries with her, so much so people mistake them for a couple. I absolutely would not leave my children in this situation. This family, for whatever reason, seem to have a history of sexual abuse. You can't keep your children safe so you need to keep them with you. No sleepovers, no off in the woods together.

It's up to you whether you blame yourself (why should you really?) and your past for this, or are blunt about why the partner's behaviour worries you.

But you are doing the right thing, don't feel bad about depriving them, it's just the way it has to be, and you would never ever forgive yourself if anything happened (and I think there's enough there to warrant real concern).

I think you have to bring up your mum's partner's relationship with his daughter, but you don't need to dwell on it. Your conversation can literally be -

1. because of your own past, you are naturally wary about your daughters spending time with men unsupervised
2. your mum's partner's unnaturally close relationship disturbs you somewhat
3. however much you like him, you have some doubts about your DDs being alone with him. That's all. You could even broach it with HIM too, playing on your own past to say it worries you when the girls are along with him. Surely, although they may be hurt, they will appreciate where you're coming from? X

I would NOT NOT NOT bring it up to him!! He'll pretend to understand to get your guard down so he can be alone with them.

I didn't know how else to word it, I don't mean he'll do anything but taking the idea that he's just inappropriate with young girls, he may just arrogantly think you're a nut, tone it down and continue with what he sees as 'normal.'

Your stepfather's DD sounds odd. The whole situation sounds odd. I'm trying to imagine a situation where she felt it was appropriate to share with her father's DP that she had sexual contact with her brother. And your mother saw the odd behaviour between her DP and his daughter and decided to chat about it with her ILs and then ignore it?

There's a very disturbing muddying of boundaries here. I don't know what's gone on in the past or who did what to whom, but I would not be happy letting my children spend time alone with this man. And as your mother is in ostrich mode, which means she can't count as a supervising adult.

your ILs