How do I broach this with my mum??

[FlamingGalar]

This issue has been hanging over my head for quite some time now and I am desperate for a few wise words that may help me embark on a talk I have to have with my Mum. I apologise for the garbled post and typos in advance!

I wanted to give you a bit of background first so I'm not accused of drip feeding - although it may make for a rather long post!

My mum and dad split up when I was 11. My Dad has always been a difficult and abusive man. My mum was emotionally and physically abused and controlled by him since the birth of my eldest brother. She has to wear clothing up to her neck and down to her ankles. If my mum took us to the beach there had to be a huge clean up operation to ensure all traces of sand were removed form the car as beach = beachwear and it would cause my dad to fly into a rage. We regularly witnesses beatings and black eyes etc.

He was also a heavy handed father and we were terrified of him. He had a particular vendetta against my second brother (I'm one of 4) and was cruel to him often. We are all redheads and my Dad found that difficult to accept - his Dad (my Grandad) also had red hair and was a tyrant and a bully towards his own family. Dad found it too much of a reminder of the genetic tie with his father, I think.

After my Dad left us (for his secretary - what a cliche!) we had little contact with him. His choice I hasten to add, although he probably did us a favour.

When I was four I was abused by an older cousin who was 16 at the time. Needless to say this has had a profound effect on the way I formed relationships with men - and particularly now I have children. My mum his aware of the abuse and has been as supportive of me as she can be. The cousin is her closest sisters son and she finds it difficult to know how to deal with it I think.

Anyway, on to the matter in hand. I think my mum has always felt a certain amount to guilt surrounding her "choice" of father for us. She has been with her current partner for the past 16 years and has always tried to cultivate a father / daughter relationship between us. As much as I like him as a person, I have never felt close to him in that way. He's always been very accepting and supportive of us all but that bond just never formed. He has two of his own children.

When I had my own children (2 dds) My mum worked hard at pushing a close grandad - granddaughter relationship between my daughters and her partner. Something I've never felt truly comfortable with - call it a gut feeling.

At our wedding my mums partner was obviously there with his children, one of whom is female. When the evening came round everyone was drunk and having a good time. Some people were asking me who the couple were with the obviously huge age gap. This "couple" turned out to be my mums partner and his daughter. People were genuinely shocked to find out they were father and daughter as they were very flirty and touchy feely. My mum was totally aware of all these goings on and was understandably pretty upset about it all.

My mum talked about it to my parents in law as they have experience working with families and family psychology. My mm has always had a problem with the nature of her partners relationship with his daughter. His daughter is very jealous of any other woman in his life and most of the over sexualised behaviour does come from her - though he does little to quell it. My mum also told my oil about her partner's daughter admitting to her that her first sexual experience was with her brother (his son).

So my dhs parents then approach my dh to say they are very concerned about our girls being left alone with my mums partner as all this over sexualised behaviour within a family is a red flag for sexual abuse and we should be very careful with our 2 dds around my mums partner. My mil has extensive experience working in this field so obviously my dh took on what she said.

At the time my husband was in full blown alcoholism and drug addiction so he didn't deal with it the best way possible. But thats a whole other thread! The upshot is that we decided the girls could never be left alone with my mums partner. We couldn't take that risk. My abuser was a well trusted member of my family so I know that if there is any doubt at all about someone the risk is not worth taking.

My mums partner really does love our girls and they love him too - maybe a little too much for comfort actually. There is a particular bond between him and my youngest, who is a real tomboy and loves foraging in the woods etc. My mums partner is a hunting shooting and a fishing kind of man, so they really do have fun together. I'm not comfortable with them going off together and always make sure either myself or my husband are around when they go off on these little excursions. I do feel that sometimes he tries to engineer "alone time" with the girls which I ensure doesn't happen.

I have explained to my mum that her partner spending time with the girls alone makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't want it to happen. Obviously I haven't given her the real reason but used the psychological scars of my own abuse as the excuse for this. She seemed to listen well and take it all in and be very understanding but the next time we went to visit my mum actively encouraged my youngest to go off with him alone. I was seething. It demonstrated how little I could actually trust her to implement my wishes. They didn't go off together by the way - I made sure of that.

So now my mum and her partner keep pushing for the girls to come and stay on their own. They have promised it to the girls personally who are both really excited at the prospect of it. They love my mum and she is the most wonderful loving Granny to them. I have no doubts about leaving them with my mum alone, but just not with her partner.

Her only other two Grandchildren have recently moved to Austrailia and she is missing them terribly. They used to stay with her a lot - and yes, I did tell my sis in law about our issues with mums partner. She is desperate for my girls to come and stay with her and I just don't know how to tell her it's not going to happen. It will totally shatter her.

I really do like my mums partner I should add. He is a sweet and kind man who is a lovely grandfather figure to our girls. I just can't shake this gut feeling that our girls must never be left alone with him - and nor can my husband. My mum won't stay in her house when her partner isn't there as she is too scared to be there on her own, so having the girls there when he is away is not an option.

Mum is coming to stay tomorrow so I'm thinking I will have to talk to her about it then. I am a bit of a bull in a china shop with emotional issues though and I really don't want to hurt her.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Any wise words would be so very appreciated.

I don't think you need to say anything. You already have - She seemed to listen well and take it all in and be very understanding but the next time we went to visit my mum actively encouraged my youngest to go off with him alone. You need to accept that she's not going to listen to you even if you spell out precisely what you're afraid of.

I'm not trying to judge here, but your mother didn't protect you and your siblings from your father when she knew what he was doing. You can't trust her to protect your DD from something she's determined to believe can't/won't happen.

Very good points Rasberry l agree on everything you say.

Remember, no matter how charming he is this is all extremely creepy and your gut is sadly probably not too far off the mark. The most charming ones that no one would ever suspect seem to be the ones who do this sadly.

I read a book on assertiveness by Anne Dickson and I kept some notes to help me with my overbearing parents in law, who often push me, I'll paste them here if it helps you. The book has been a real life saver for me tbh and it is worth reading:

Maintain a steady position without falling prey to manipulative comment, irrelevant logic, or argumentative bait. Just keep saying no.

You may want the girls to come and stay alone but I am not comfortable with that.
I can see why you?d like the children to stay but my answer is no.
I?m sorry but I?m not prepared to ???????
Yes I know, but I?m not prepared to ???????..
No I?m really not prepared to ??????? I?m sure when the children are older we can arrange things differently.
I know you?re disappointed but I still have to say no.
I appreciate how much you?ve done for me in the past but ?????????

Constant repetition of the key phrase. Do not get hooked in. Field the response by acknowledging it and deflecting it.

I have a right to state my own needs and set my own priorities as a person independent of any roles I may assume in life. It can be difficult to assert my needs when they conflict with my responsibilities and obligations I feel I have as a mother and to my own mum.
I have the right to be treated with respect as an intelligent capable and equal human being.

Oh yes and please trust your gut, do not get bullied/ forced into anything out of guilt. Just keep saying no.

Agree with Raspberry I'm not sure what you will get from raising this in conversation with your DM.

She has already seen her partners inappropriate behaviour and the conversation has already been had with her about ensuring appropriate boundaries are maintained between him and your DCs which she has chosen to ignore just as she will choose to ignore any further chats around the subject that you have with her.

Much more useful to use the set of sentences that dontstepon has listed to demonstrate your intention rather than get into another discussion about it.

Thank you all for your responses.

Raspberry - My mum protected us from a lot of the abuse that went on in our home. We would get a smack for being naughty but weren't beaten by my father. He was emotionally abusive however. He created a situation in which my mother felt trapped with few choices and I don't blame her for our childhood situation.

I absolutely agree that its the charming ones to look out for. My father was a incredibly charming and in a position of immense power in his work. No one would have guessed what went on behind closed doors. My cousin is also a charmer and no one would believe him to be a pedophile.

I need for my mum to understand my decision fully and hopefully to respect why I have made it. I don't feel it's ok to say a flat "no" to the girls coming to stay without really explaining why I feel it's not appropriate. I plan to allude back to the reasons I spoke about with her previously and to really push home how serious I am about the way it makes me feel for a man to have unsupervised access to my children. It may or may not register this time, but at least I will have tried as best I can.

It is bizarre between my mums dp and his daughter. His first marriage split up when the dw left my mums dp for a much much younger man. His dd struggled to come to terms with it for many years (apparently) and has been uber protective of her original family unit ever since. I wonder what the extent of the first sexual experience with her brother actually was - there was no suggestion it was full intercourse. She is the older of the siblings btw. I do wonder how much of this is a jealous and very sad daughter peeing on her territory and her dad not wanting to upset / reject her anymore than he feels he and his exw have done already? I don't wish to sound like I'm making excuses - just waxing lyrical about the situation really.

I was reluctant to reveal this information, but I do actually know a little girl (she's four, or at least was at the time this happened) long story short I went through a..'Dating' period with her parents. They told me towards the end the school had forced her to see a therapist specialising in children's sexuality because she 'mimicked' daddy and tried to stick her finger in her twin brother's bottom, and was bragging at school. They didn't want the teacher to know about their outside hobby so they let their four year old daughter take the fall. I ended it after that because apparently I was the only one who could see the damage their lifestyle was causing their children.

Anyway, my point is at the best, it's a weird scenario like this where she's picked up something somewhere ad worst, well you know worst.

I guess my point is what I constitute as sexual abuse doesn't even involve touching. In my course we're being taught when single fathers allow their daughter to fulfil the role of wife (without the intimacy, of course) allow their daughter to see their porn, crack dirty jokes etc it completely warps her sexuality. It is recognised as a form of sexual abuse most people don't realise. Sadly this is usually how daughters are groomed into more severe sexual abuse.

The only reason I shared this bloody embarrassing story (I'm full of them tonight on MN!) is to point out he may have never touched his daughter but there are other ways he could have sexually fucked her up. From my half year of uni understanding anyway.

I know you want your mum to understand but I don't think it will work But I understand why you want to try. Have those lines ready as this is going to keep cropping up again and again I think and you'll need firm boundaries.

Thanks for sharing that Lurking - that must have been quite a shock for you. So I am assuming you mean the daughter had witnessed her parents "hobby" and they thought this perfectly normal, or am I swerving off the track somewhat? It does give a whole new perspective on things in regard to the father daughter scenario - I have encountered this along my own alanon recovery process and it makes a lot of sense to me. I hadn't applied the possibility to mums dh and his dd however. Thats really given me something to think about, thanks.

Dontstep - Yes I fear you may be right. However I must try for my own sanity at least.

Yep, as in she'd walked in on stuff obviously.

No idea why they didn't just say t was them and save the poor child from the relentless testing she was to endure. I'd made my escape by that point! Cleaned up my life and met DP :)

I bet you ran like the wind! Poor little pickle.

Lurking - what do youmeanwhenyou say the parents let their 4yo take the fall instead of admitting itcame from them?

Wouldnt the school/therapist know where it had come from anyway? Or do you mean that they assumed the girl was warped and thought of it all herself?

Sorry op, dont mean to hijack -im just trying to get myhead around lurking's experience.

A quick update for those who are interested.

I had a very frank conversation with my mum about why I'm not happy for the girls to stay with her and her dp. She was amazingly understanding and supportive. She totally took on board what I said to her and we have agreed that we will spend more time together as a family without the girls staying over on their own.
She also went on to tell me that her dps daughter was also abused for years by her mums lodger. This was news to me and maybe goes some way to explain the over sexualised behaviour towards her father. Although this certainly hasn't completely offset my fears, it has identified where the abuse occurred within the family of my mums dp. It helps me to understand some of the odd behaviour within that unit - I knew something had obviously happened to my step dads dd, but I didn't know the perpetrator or circumstances.

I feel so much better about managing the situation now.

Thank you all so much for your helpful posts. They gave me the confidence to face the conversation I was so dreading. It wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it would be

OP please please listen to your in laws, don't leave your children with any of them (your mum's new family) none from what you have said are realistic about how dysfunctional that is.

and don't for the love of all that is good let your daughter go off to see nature with this man, it's an all time classic

Quoteunquote - I am completely aware of how dysfunctional it all is. I had hoped I had made that pretty clear in my posts. This is why I had already made the decision that my children will never be left alone in his company.

My OP was in regard to how I should broach that difficult conversation with my mum who was desperate to have the girls to stay on their own - which I have done. It wasn't easy but it went as well as it could have done.

Thank you for your input though.

Flaming good on you for having that conversation. Hope things improve for you and your DDs.

Thank you for the update op. i came straight to this thread hoping you'd be back.

Well done for the chat with your mum, and i'm glad it went well. It sounds like she has understood your reasons, and hopefully wont try to persued you to leave your DDs with the DP any more.

I think you're being very strong and brave and are handling this perfectly. Be proud of your self.

It's hard for us here not to keep saying "Dont leave your girls with him!" even though we know you don't intend to. I think we're just all feeling very protective and worried for you and them

Well done Flaming I'm glad it went well. You must feel so much better for having that converstation.

oh well done!

And v good that your Mum was willing to listen and take on board.

Thank you everyone. Time will tell just exactly how much my mum has taken on board but it's positive as it stands.

Yes, I can't tell you how relieved I am! It really is a huge weight off my shoulders. I feel I can manage this so much more easily now - although I'm sure there will still be many a bump in the road along the way.

Really so glad I posted this on here - I'm very grateful to you all for your help and kind words.

Flaming, thank you for coming back to update and well done on your conversation with your mum.

It must have been hard for you, but you have clearly done a really good job in getting your point across without letting emotion get the better of the situation.

I'm not sure how old your girls are, but kids are never too young to start to talk to them about protecting themselves from abusers and about what to do if they are abused. this can be as basic as teaching them that in your family you don't keep secrets and if anyone ever asks them not to tell their mum about something then they must tell their dad (or name another adult that you trust) and vice versa. This means that on a practical level you can keep nice secrets like birthday presents etc, but it will hopefully subvert the lies and secrets that permit abuse to go on within families.

I'm sure this is something you are already doing with them, and hopefully it is something that will help you feel more assured about their safety i.e. if some time in the future you have cause to doubt that your mum is adhereing to your wishes you might be reassured that your girls will tell you this (I am not suggesting that your mum would purposfully try to undermine you)

Sorry if thats a bit garbled, my DS is teething he has cried at me all day!

Hi Nigella, Yes I have an excellent book called 'Keeping Safe' which I have just started reading. It has great tips on how to talk to children about personal safety etc. Your absolutely right, it's never too early to talk to children about how to protect themselves - I've found it helpful on a personal safety level for me too!