Is this part of the EA games?

[DoingItForMyself]

STBXH and I were discussing things surrounding the end of our marriage. Now that he has accepted that he treated me badly and it is out in the open, he has been saying that it only happened because I let it happen.

If I'd stood up to him and not been so emotional he wouldn't have been able to treat me the way he has.

This morning I quietly said to him "I never allowed it. I told you that it was unacceptable, but you did it anyway. It was not my fault. It continued to happen NOT because I allowed it to, but because I loved you too much to walk away from it. Luckily now I don't."

I felt so strong after I said it. But why do I still feel that if I'd been a 'better' person, stronger, more interesting, more lovable, that he wouldn't have been so mean to me? Could I ever have prevented this, or is he re-writing the past again?

IMO he would have been like this no matter what you were like. It's classical, blaming yourself for his behaviour. If you fancy it, then come and join us on the EA thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1488894-Support-thread-for-those-in-Emotionally-Abusive-relationships-Number-9

There's a lot of support and advice, and I assure you nobody there will think it was your fault.

He's re-writing the past and like all EAs trying to blame you for his behaviour.

How did he react when you told him that you didn't allow it but it happened anyway? (fab, by the way - well done)

For what it's worth, I was with someone who was EA. When I "stood up to him", his behaviour got much worse and continued to be so.

FWIW he apologised for saying that I'd allowed him to be horrible to me, but it was almost too easy, too quick. I'm convinced that he has been reading some website about how to mess with my head!

Last night DS was on a sleepover. I said to DH "If you're fed up of sleeping on the sofa....you could always sleep in DS's bed"

His response was instant "Oh I'm quite used to the sofa now" with a laugh. Then he thought about it for a while and said "Oh I could do actually".

I'm so sure he had that response ready-prepared in case I offered for him to sleep in 'our' bed again (AS IF!)

I'm still twisting myself in knots trying to work out his behaviour. I need to switch off don't I.

The only type of person he wouldn't have done this to is the type of person who would decide not to be with him. And you've done that now, well done.

So you are in fact the type of person that he cannot emotionally abuse. Hooray!!

DIFM sympathy as my STBXH said something similiar and I did tie myself in knots wondering if I had been stronger would he have been better - was it my fault?
But as the others have said

1. When I did stand up to him, his response was to be even more distant, demanding, cutting and ugly
2. that was his choice to be like that not yours
3. the only choice I made was to love him and stay in spite of this behaviour and in the (futile) hope he would change to make a happy home for our DC
4. even now when I stand up to him, he becomes this angry, snarling, ugly person

the only person he would not have done this with/doesn't do it to now, is the type of person who would never have married him.

he doesnt deserve this room in your head- out, out, out...

I suppose I'm questioning it because now that I am standing up to him he is actually being MORE accommodating and pleasant. Had I stood up for myself before, would he have respected me more? If I had remained calm and talked quietly instead of getting hysterical and ranting, would he have been able to talk to me instead of shutting me out?

I think I know the answer is no, or that he would have found another way to disrespect me, but it doesn't stop me wondering.

I only ever feel strong when I envisage myself out of his shadow and even though he is helping me in practical ways to make this separation work, I don't want a long-term reliance on him, because being around him brings out the worst in me

That's quite enlightening actually - tis a vicious circle.

Both Schobe & Porridge have said I am now not the type of person he can abuse because I don't want to be with him.

But now that he's not being abusive I question whether I could still love him.

But if I gave him another chance, I'd become the sort of person he CAN abuse!

At least I know how to break the circle. Step away. Don't turn back.

Don't give him another chance. There is no point being in a relationship with someone like this. You are doing the right thing to end it.

Thanks Lizza. I'm not seriously thinking about it at the moment. I just worry that his reassurance that he will still be on hand to help me, can still pop in for a cuppa when he drops off the DCs etc is a way to try and make sure I see how much he has/will have changed, which will inevitably make me doubt my decision.

I honestly think that what he wanted was to still be 'married' but to live in separate houses, and it feels like that is what is happening in his mind. He's still wearing his wedding ring (even though he never really wanted one or understood what it meant) and he is still wearing the bracelet I made him with all our names on it.

I think he envisaged some cosy set-up where he has his own space, kids a couple of times a week after school and me here as a 'friend'. He's said he can stay for dinner sometimes and I can go to his house.

He has said he's no longer that bothered about sex as he's getting older and now has his running so I don't suppose that will be an issue (interestingly he only said that when I told him that, contrary to what he believed, I DID have sexual feelings but hadn't felt able to suggest it to him for fear of rejection. So the answer was - a big rejection!)

So other than that, he has someone to look after the DCs, someone to chat to and pop in for tea with, more time & money to himself to do as he wishes. Win win for him really. I just need to believe that it is also win win for me.

"He's said he can stay for dinner sometimes"

That's nice. Have YOU said he can stay for dinner sometimes?

See, he's even organising your life for when he isn't in it any more.

I've mentioned that its nice that recently he's been sitting down with the DCs and having his cup of tea instead of going off to his office. He's offered to prepare dinner while I've been out with DCs (never before!) and so I said that now he's being nicer I will kind of miss him when he's gone

I suppose I want him to see that it would have only taken some of these kind gestures, nothing huge, to have made such a difference in the way I saw him (even taking the EA out of the equation) so I'm pointing out the positive changes he's made. I guess he's taken that as a bit of a weakness on my part that I still want him around, when in fact I've already said it will be easier for me not to.

Its hard to find a balance between being civil and amicable to get the best outcome for everyone and still trying to make him see where it all went so wrong (and that I really didn't ask for much).

I told him I didn't want him still being involved with organising my life but then while trying to fill in forms I had to keep asking him what date we bought the house, when we set up the business, where do I find the accounts info etc, so I've shown him that I do still need him.

Computer stopped working and once he'd fixed it I asked what he'd done so I'd know for next time. He said nothing, it had just sorted itself out. I wonder if that is so that I'll still need him.

aah I wouldnt fall for that at all. Has he accepted that he was being abusive to you? Has he made a genuine apology? Nope- it was your fault for not standing up to him. Now that the little petal sees that you can continue without him, he is on his best behaviour.
I wouldnt rely on that continuing- you will 'trip' (we all do- its human to make a mistake). If he is feeling secure that you are re-considering him, he will abuse you again.
Sounds like he wants all the benefits of wife and kids but none of the (emotional) responsibility.

I'm sure that's true porridge, the only thing being, I don't think he still wants to live here in order to have it, so he's really already got most of it!

He apologised for hurting me after I forced the issue and after many half-hearted/botched attempts to say "IF i hurt you then I'm sure I already apologised at the time" "sorry IF something I said hurt your feelings" etc, although he kept saying "I won't say the words you're trying to put into my mouth" (abuse).

Its almost like he admits that he did wrong, but he thinks there are a multitude of excuses/reasons other than that he is abusive, so I suppose I'm halfway to having my experiences validated. Before he has totally denied saying certain things.

He recently also brought up an incident several years ago when I tried to hit him and says that he's never mentioned that, like he is so forgiving of my appalling behaviour. I'd forgotten about it TBH, but I vaguely remember it being some gaslighting incident where I got so wound up by his behaviour that I lashed out and he started laughing at me.

Obviously it caught me off guard to be the one in the wrong and it just showed me that the EA script is alive and well even now. I am the hysterical violent one while he is calm and dignified and never raises his voice.

It's all far too little, far too late. My ex started being really nice towards the end. It almost made me feel sad - if he'd been like that most of the time, we could have stayed together. But by that point I only felt contempt for him.

As soon as we'd split and for years after (still, in fact), he blamed me for everything that was bad in our time together, no matter how small or serious. It's his sheer arrogance that was most difficult to deal with.

You will be much happier when he's gone I promise, but make sure you establish clear boundaries, including him not coming into your home.

Thanks Lazarusb. I just worry that if my boundaries seem unreasonably harsh, the DCs will be hurt by it. I'm trying to give H the benefit of the doubt and treat him respectfully, regardless of what he's done, as I may need that reciprocated further down the line.

When he saw how much I could get on the Turn2Us website he was gobsmacked and I think suddenly his promises to make sure I was ok financially seemed a little rash!

Had he been seriously abusive, physical/sexual etc I wouldn't have him anywhere near me, but the low-level griping, lack of affection, occasional gaslighting, mildly controlling behaviour is wearing, but not exactly life-threatening, so cutting him out altogether seems like overkill.

From a distance I think I'll get on ok with him and once he has proper boundaries re DCs, he won't be able to take advantage without it being very obvious.

DD needs an adult to attend a party with her. Normally there would be no question of who would go (me) but as its going to be his weekend, I can happily say, "I'll have DS2 for a couple of hours, you can take her to the party" (DS1 will prob be out with his friends anyway) and any attempt to wriggle out of it will show his lack of commitment to her.

That's what I'm hoping anyway.

OK, let him play Good Daddy this week. But, for future reference, I think it's wiser to put alternative arrangements in place. Begin thinking of yourself as a single-parent family immediately: like other single parents, sort out your support networks, make reciprocal arrangements with other parents, hire in if you need to. Get him into a fixed 'Dad schedule' asap, on the kind of basis you want to continue after your eventual split.

FWIW, I fell for this "I can be reasonable & helpful" crap - no kids; it was about renovation projects we'd already started. I made a massive mistake there; mumsnet would never have approved it The new game fucked me up (and over, financially) for good. Don't buy it.

Wishing you all the best, and rock-solid boundaries. x

Had an epiphany sitting in the sunshine!

That Groucho Marx quote "Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member."

That's him isn't it?! If I want to be with him I must be a sad pathetic specimen unworthy of his affection, so he doesn't want to be part of my club. Somewise MNer once mentioned that these men are actually self-loathing, that the bravado is a cover for the fact that they know they are horrible.

Well, believing that makes me feel better anyway.

Will definitely get the schedule sorted once he leaves, its a bit tricky while he's here. However, I have made a point of being 'out' a lot leaving him with baths, bedtimes, meals etc which I would never have done before. Just subtly handing over some responsibility for the DCs in preparation.

it will always be your fault, and you know why

YABU for having sunshine

Yes, what am I doing in here? - I'm going outside to bask

I'm a confirmed Groucho fan.

Here's another of his quotes you can bask in: "I, not events, have the power to make me happy or unhappy today. I can choose which it shall be. Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, today, and I'm going to be happy in it".

Love that quote, never heard, but love it so much I've just written it down.
I feel for you OP, I am in same situation. I am moving out with 19month old daughter in 4 days time. It's Father's Day, I feel terrible for STBXP, then I remember how he can be.

Like you, when he is nice, I think, am I making a mistake? Is it my fault that he could be horrible/EA? Would he have been like that if I had been less this/that/the other? I am also trying to work it all out, work out my part in it, his part. It's so bloody confusing isn't it. As soon as they are nice you start to wonder, perhaps we shouldn't separate etc. But I have come to realise that fundementally people don't really change, not for good. You told him things were unacceptable in the way that he treated you, yet I bet he continued to treat you in the same way, with bouts of 'niceness' in between just to confuse your head.

It's hard to try and switch off and stop analysing it all. But it will be better for your head in the long run to do that. What's done is done. Best thing you can do is learn from your part in it, see how you acted, see where you felt you could've behaved better,recognise the parts that were unacceptable in the way he treated you and promise yourself that in the future you will allow yourself to be treated more kindly, with more respect and more love. You no doubt deserve it.

Thanks Izzy, I'm having that quote too! Might make it into a motivational plaque with my pyrography tool (outing myself as a craft geek!)

Likeasingleparent (just how I've felt for years!) I've really struggled with Fathers Day, but H doesn't seem to have had a care in the world. He gratefully accepted his prezzy and card without even a glimmer of regret that this time next week he won't be here. He says he is being strong for the DCs but to me it just seems cold and detached (as usual). He says he is emotional, but in private.

I've said that they need to see that it is a big thing, that he's sad about it, so that they can know that he loves them and wishes things could have been different. By pretending everything is ok, he is in effect lying to them and that doesn't give them 'permission' to feel sad about it. I don't mean he has to be in tears all day, but the odd little comment when appropriate would at least show them (& me) that what is on our minds all the time is also affecting him.

In some ways it is helping me to detach a bit though - if he were being too nice to me and begging for forgiveness I don't know how strong I could be even though I know this is the right move. As things stand its a constant reminder of how differently we behave and why we have never communicated properly.

Are you ok about moving out Like - do you have your own place to move into yet?

At least you are getting out before your precious DD can be affected by it. I should have done years ago and my DCs are now 5, 7 & 12 so I've tried to work things out to prevent the upheaval for them, but its just been prolonging the end. I know they'll all be happier out of this situation and I'm fortunate that H is adamant that I can stay in the house with the DCs, so as little change as possible for them.

I just feel very alone because out of the 5 of us its only me & DS1 who appear to be at all upset about this, and I think DS blames me for making it happen (even though he knows exactly what his dad is like and has been on the receiving end of plenty of EA himself). Now that H is being nice, I'm trying to continue with the firm boundaries we've always set, while H indulges him to ease his conscience

So when is he leaving? Has he started packing? Have you seen a signed contract for his new place?