Do I make my 13 year old see her Dad or has he gone too far now?

[mylunchwasdull]

Would appreciate your thoughts on this as can't think clearly on what is the best thing to do.

I have been split up from him since she was 2 - she is now almost 14. It was an amicable split really and he has had her every other weekend since. He pays maintenance on time every month and is not in the slightest bit violent or aggressive. He lives with the woman he met very shortly after we split, so a 12 year relationship.

Anyway.. those are the good points! Here are the bad...

1. For many years now our DD has slept on the sofa for the weekend when she is with him. His girlfriend has 2 kids and one has only recently left home, freeing up a bed. He 'couldn't be bothered' to get a sofa type/temporary bed. So, aged 8 or 9, she would still be up at midnight when he went to bed.

1. He doesn't get out of bed until lunch time. Him and his girlfriend lay in bed until then, then he comes downstairs, makes a tray of food for them both and goes back upstairs where him and the g/f watch a dvd. He has done this for years now...leaving DD on her own , bored until at least 12/1pm. I have always ensured she packs books/laptop/kindle / toys over the years. This is every weekend more or less.

1. He very rarely does anything with her, never takes her out. Maybe once every 3 or 4 months at a push to a Hungry Horse pub for dinner or to go shopping with him and his g/f. She is constantly bored.

1. The comments over the years about me.... which brings me to the final straw [ I think! ] ... DD has told me many times that his girlfriend calls me a 'stupid cow' and other derogatory comments. This makes my DD feel awkward and upset.His girlfriend once said that i mouthed ' fuck off' to her across the street once. This is laughably untrue. I am pleasant, friendly if i see them and have no interest in either of them. Ive always, always promoted good relations between my ex and DD - calling him constantly to nag him to call her or attend a school play or to tell her 'well done' for a good school report.

Last week DD bumped into her dad and his g/f in town and mentioned that i was thinking about letting her have one more piercing in her ears and she said ' Mum doesn't really like it though so i'm having to try and get round her ... ' His g/f then said ' she wont let you? What a wanker she is ... '

DD came home and told me this so I called my ex. I was cool and polite but made it clear that this was unacceptable to me and that if they wished to call me a wanker would they please do it between themselves. He got very defesnsive, swearing at me and calling DD a liar and that the g/f never said this.

I replaced the handset as he was screaming at me to piss off and saying he wasnt putting up with DDs tale telling a moment longer. his gf then rang me ten minutes later... she said yes, she HAD called me a wanker and she was sorry but she just 'sometimes says these things' and 'doesn't think'... I said I appreciated the call to clarify, that i hoped this was the end of it and that they were to stop calling me names in front of dd.

The upshot is that my ex is not speaking to our DD. Childishly ignoring her really- no call, no text, blanked her for 40 minutes the other day when they were both at his other daughter's house.... He is VERY stubborn and ALWAYS sides with his g/f... he wont be cross with the g/f for calling me a wanker- he will be cross that DD told me.

DD is upset and says she no longer wishes to see him or spend the night there. Do I agree to this? Does this ratchet it all up? Do i make her go as usual?

WWYD?

No, I vote 'don't make her go' too.

I think in your over-eagerness to play fair and not to be accused of with-holding contact, you've lost sight of your daughter's needs to an extent. Neglect and disinterest can be as emotionally damaging as 'beating her with a stick'. She's earned the right at her age to say how she wants to spend her time and few 13-14 year-olds want to spend an entire weekend with one or both parents anyway, especially two that are as selfish as this pair.

If a friend she disliked intensely right now asked her round for the weekend, you wouldn't force her to go would you?

This is no different.

You've done really well I think not to match the other couple's bitching about you with your own, but it must have been a PITA for your daughter having to listen to them criticising her mum. Children should never be put in this position. If your ex had any sense, he would accept that his girlfriend had behaved badly and actually, they should both apologise to your daughter and not just you, because it was her to whom the comment was made.

It's not about you or what she reported to you.

It's that nobody likes to listen to badmouthing of a loved parent.

It's not that you care about what his g/f says about you, but that your DD doesn't like to hear those things.

No! Don't make her go! If you're worried perhaps you could write her a letter about why you have encouraged the relationship over the years but that at nearly 14 you feel she's old enough to decide for herself - that way you've put it in her hands and you hopefully avoid the whole "you said i shouldn't see my dad any more" nonsense if she ever regrets it later.

She does need it explaining that just because someone doesn't hit you with a stick or whatever, it doesn't mean you have to try doubly hard with them or put up with their crap. I see what you've been trying to do but in the end it's a pretty unhelpful message regarding future relationships :(

My XH sounds very similar to yours. One of our DCs chose to stop all contact with his father about 18mths ago; the other one still sees his dad. Both of them seem perfectly happy with their decision.

At 13, your DD knows her own mind and I think it's important that you point out the pros and cons of stopping contact, but ultimately letting her decide. Try to keep the door open for the future though - she may want to see him again after she's had a break. Perhaps, if/when she's ready, she could suggest a different pattern of visits/ place of visit which would suit her?

Legally the right to a relationship between DC and non-resident parent is the right of the CHILD, not the right of the NRP.

My 12 year old dd,is losing interest in seeing her father too.
We seperated when she was 2(due to mental abuse,from his side),I met her dsf when she was 4,so he has always been there for her.
Her father has been a waste of time & last year stopped paying maintenance for her.
Over the past few weeks she has been seeing him less & less & when asked says 'I just can't be bothered with him'.
Hecate put it very well - You get out of your kids what you put into them.
I will never make her see him,at 12 years old she is old enough to weigh up the facts and make her own decision and I will stand by her cheering

Well, I just rang him and spoke to him about it. I said that she was unhappy and unsure about coming to see him and he said ' why's that then? ' ...so I said a few bits and pieces and concentrated on how disappointing I found it that he would choose to side with his g/f , preferring to label DD a ' tell tale' when it was a fact that his g/f had called me a wanker. He was not keen to discuss this, funnily enough.

He started to say he ' didn't care' and that she could 'do what she liked' so I told him he was childish, selfish and a disappointing father - that we had a child who had never given us a moment's trouble and that I was on the verge of completely stepping out of it now. I said I was appealing to his better nature this one last time , that he mustn't fuck up his relationship with his dd for the sake of being a stubborn old bastard and that the onus was on him to call her and talk to her and try and clear this up. Couldn't he do one thing with her at the weekend, a walk, cinema, ANYTHING that was just them two, find some common ground... etc etc. I ended by saying that I would do the right thing by her and that is was now his choice - but that i would now leave it up to her as to whether she wanted to come to stay or not.

He was most displeased - said he would 'give her a ring' and that was that...

So, I feel i have done all i can. It really was quite some speech but i cant keep booting him up the arse like this. i've had years of it.

I think what you did was right mylunch. The ball is in his court, if he chooses not to make an effort with his daughter she will not bother making an effort with him.

I also would not boot him up the arse any more, you made your point clear and once should be enough.

Yes, you've done your bit and more. You can't MAKE him be a good bloke, and it must break your heart when it's your child suffering from his tosser behaviour, but sadly that's his choice. I'm sure your kind and loving parenting has been a wonderful and safe environment for your DD growing up.

I will also add that I have been through this with my own Dad, but at a much older age. To the point where I wasn't going to contact him unless he made the effort as it was always me then he let me down.

This resulted in me having DC3 and him not knowing about it until she was 3 months old. I did not keep the information from him I just waited for him to contact me and it never happened.

He sent me an email congratulating me and I sent a very long one back explaining how he had hurt me and let me down, I am in my 30s and would end up crying bcasue he wouldn't bother to see me when we arranged to meet ffs. My older DC are old enough that they would feel upset and let down by this now which is why I stopped making the effort. I told him all of this in the email and he has improved, it's been about 9 months now, although I do still find myself waiting for it all to stop, as he has always been a very selfish person.

Basically you can't make him step up and be a decent father and at least your DD has the measure of him at an early age.

I would also enquire if there is anyone your daughter can talk to at school about how she is feeling.
To be honest his behaviour is bordering on abuse, both neglect and emotional, but that is a ver emotive term. I also think she can start to make up her own mind about how much contact she has with her father. If she wants to see him maybe you need to step back and let them arrange it between themselves.

Hee hee - I'm not sure about 'kind and loving' as I am rather a 'no nonsense' kinda parent - but will admit that stability and routine and dealing with things properly and unemotionally are probably how i do things. And I try and get it 'right' in terms of how I speak to the kids.. I certainly wouldn't call her father a wanker, whatever my own private thoughts may be.

Well, we will see what happens

thank you for all your good advice and thoughts

I think you should not give a further moment's worry to him. He clearly has never managed to parent. I am worried that you are still trying to shore him up in the eyes of your DD. There is a difference between encouraging a reluctant child to see good things in a parent and helping a child understand that perhaps a parent isn't capable or willing to act like the mature adult that goes with the job description.
One good parent is enough. So spend some time with her showing her that you are her rock, are interested in her and will be there. And perhaps discuss and get her to write a letter to him explaining her decision and why in the thoughtful and mature way that will show she is making an adult choice and he is stuck somewhere in toddlerdom. Then you can both sit back and enjoy each other's company while leaving the door open for him to contact her if he chooses to and her free to decide what relationship or not she wants with her father.

When people say she's old enough to make her own mind up, if she said I want to live with my dad, would you say yes?

If you would she's mature enough to make her own mind up where she goes.

agee

1. she shoudl no go if she doesnt want to

1. you should not waste any more time telling him what he should or should not do. nor should you engage at all with him, eg telling him what you think of him. it will just feed his ego adn he will go his loving GF about how awful you are... or telling dd what you have said about him...

it is entirely down to him now to rebuild or not a relationship with his dd after this

you dont need to communicate with him at all really now. othe than factually

don't make her see him. And don't feel guilty about letting this carry on for so long, i'm sure you did what you thought was best for her at the time. Considering her age and normal teen development she is most likely to want to start spending more time with her friends at the weekends rather than at home with Mum or Dad . I'd embrace this new phase in her life and see it as positive. If he wants to continue having a relationship with her then he needs to make more of an effort. I've got grown up kids, you have to work at it from time to time, same as any relationship really.

p.s completely agree with cestlavie. Embrace the change in your life too!! You can now have less to do with him !!

Personally I wouldn't make her go. He sounds pretty awful and she's old enough to think for herself, it can't be fun for her and you have done everything you can. At 13 I decided I no longer wanted to see my biological father-I have no regrets- we exchange Christmas cards and that's it , visiting him was making me miserable and at 13 there are so many other things happening I felt nothing but relief when i no longer had to go. Of course a break May do them the world of good she might miss him and he might grow up.

She is old enough now, that if she wants to go and see her dad, she could phone him, or he could phone her.

Tell her that you are going to leave it up to her if she wants to go.

Your ex is being abusive to her, he is being emotionally abusive. If it was a boyfriend treating her in this way you would not be encouraging her to keep the relationship going, would you?

I was forced to see my mum (non-resident parent) from age 12-17, when I left school. I wish I'd been allowed to say no. Our relationship finally broke down irretrievably in my mid 30s and I do wonder sometimes why I spent half my life trying to please someone who didn't like me much and actively despised my wonderful dh.
I'd let a 13 year old choose.

Yet another vote for letting her drop contact with this tiresome, lazy, selfish man. She is old enough to make her own choices now, and also old enough that she will remember, later on, that she made the choice herself (and indeed to resume contact if she wishes).

I'm a lurker but have read this thread with interest and surprise at the replies (in a good way). I have a similar, though not identical, situation but my DS is only 7. He is reluctant to go to his father's and has been for some time, and we have quite frequent conversations about why he has to go. My line is that he is too young to decide and that it is right for him that I ensure he has a relationship with his father now but that when he is old enough, it will be his decision and up to him. His father has him every other weekend and doesn't miss - and in fact is extremely keen and determined to have his weekends - but it's always seemed to be because it's his 'right' rather than because he genuinely wants to spent time with my DS. (Responsibility is a different ball game - I have had to fight tooth and nail to get any financial contribution and he resents it in the extreme.) He routinely goes to work, to the pub, to play golf etc and leaves my son with his sister/mother/girlfriend, but he won't let him come home because it's 'his' time - despite the fact he isn't actually there. Even when he is physically there, he doesn't do anything with him. If he takes him anywhere it's to the pub, so he can watch football (DS hates football). He can't be bothered to do any actual parenting so DS stays up stupidly late both nights (11pm, midnight) and is pale and tired when I pick him up on Sunday, and hopelessly tired when he has to get up for school on Monday morning. My son doesn't hate going to his father's for the weekend - that would be different - but he doesn't much like it either, has no enthusiasm for it and would rather be at home. His father never makes any effort, never calls or texts during the week to see how he is, never asks how he's doing at school etc. It was a horrible controlling relationship (him and me, I mean) and he does some weird controlling things to DS too, for example insists on calling DS by a shortened version of his name that he (DS) does not like, and that no-one else uses. Since he has been old enough to talk DS has been asking him not to call him that version of his name, and I have asked him too, but he refuses and just says "That is the name I call him". Which sounds mental, because it is.
The point is that I totally empathise with trying to walk this line between encouraging a relationship and 'doing the right thing' and having someone who is a rubbish role model in your child's life and 'making' your child go. And the line between not being negative about the other parent but not setting your child up for a disappointment either. Perhaps it's an awful thing to say but the responses in this thread have encouraged me because I am reasonably sure that at some point we will be where you are now, and I read the OP and thought with a sinking heart "everyone is going to say the child should go". My son's father took me to court to get this level of contact (because at every stage if I wouldn't agree to his exact demands he started/resumed legal proceedings to make me fall in line, basically, and wouldn't and still won't discuss reasonably or compromise) and the court seemed to be of the view that because he was 'around' and kept to the contact arrangements, he was a good father. Many of my concerns were dismissed at 'differing parenting styles' but where is the line? My belief has always been that the legal stuff was just about control, to intimidate me into agreeing to his demands. He has recently told DS that he intends to take me to court again (nice - to a 7 year old) because he doesn't get to do stuff with DS because he doesn't get enough time and I won't allow him any more (he's never approached me to ask, of course, and as I said - he's not there for a great proportion of the time he already has. It's just about taking no responsibility for doing sod all and trying to make it my fault to DS). DS has told him he doesn't WANT to go more often.
It's a horrible situation to be in, trying to do the right thing and worrying that by trying to be fair you're inadvertently doing the wrong thing. Thank you for the thread, OP.

MyLunch Everyone has already said what I was going to say, which is that this man isn't treating her well, and she should absolutely be able to walk away from him if she feels that he isn't treating her well.

Give yourself a huge pat on the back and a big glass of for giving her that amazing and wonderful and powerful model for her future relationships with men: that her happiness matters, that fairness, kindness, and decency matters, and she is allowed to walk away if someone treats her like dirt.

I think we all hope our DCs will instinctively believe that they can and should walk away, to preserve their self-esteem and happiness, if in X years' time they end up in a relationship with someone horrible.

Well, your DD is working it out now. Good for her. Good for you. I hope I can be a thoughtful, fair-minded woman like you (in the face of extreme provocation, too!) Well bloody done! :)

mylunch

It sounds as though you have a very mature daughter :)

Don't force her to see him. She knows her own mind and if she chooses not to see him it's only him that loses out.

I'm sure your daughter is aware that it has been you kicking him up the a*se all of these years. You don't need to do it anymore, she knows the score. Just be there to support her.

agree, you shouldn't make her see him. You sound a good Mum who has raised an intelligent thoughtful daughter pretty much all by yourself. You've done all you can re her father now give yourself a break :)

Love what blackcurrants said. Bit disappointed with those who have seen fit to point out where you are going wrong. Bit like teacher /Mum pointing out the error of your ways!