How to handle ex-mother-in-law

[porridgelover]

OK I think I need advice about resetting my boundaries here.
STBExH was horrifically EA and VA - gaslighting, financial control, sense of entitlement, cut me off from friends and family. He walked out about 2 years ago- but I think it was a step he took thinking he would walk back in when he wanted and that I would be more cowed than ever.
I have had intensive counselling since then- recognised I was being abused, dysfunctional family of origin etc etc
We have 2 DC who have gone through a lot before and since. I have worked hard to maintain their relationship with their DF- ringing him to arrange access, having him over for birthdays, Cmas etc. Ditto with his parents- his DM rings me to ask for the kids to visit (they live a few doors away).

Over the past few months, I think exMIL thinks that she can regain the lost ground and is starting on her games again. I have a DS whom she adores; we were all out for coffee (her, me, DS and DD) when she starts at the table about DS 'he's wonderful isn't he, such a marvellous child'. Never comments like this about DD.

Today, she rang me to arrange her going to DD's school play. For last few years, I have bought tickets for them and exH- this year, I let Ex know when the play is on and waited to hear from him about if/when he wants tickets. She wants to buy my tickets from me!

I think I am torn between not wanting my children to be abandoned by their father and his parents vs standing up for myself. Any assertiveness is seen as aggressively preventing them seeing them.

Don't let her buy your tickets, you've done everything you should have by telling him when and where and waiting for his reply so if he's left it to late then that's not your problem and why should you miss out? I think if you did then it could seem like its some kind of control over you by taking yours and you missing out because he couldn't be bothered to reply

Just tell her she can';t have them as you want to see your daughter in her school play and suggests she contacts the school directly to see if they have spare tickets. If she kicks off, say "I think you have to admit I have been very fair about your seeing the gc, ensuring you still have a good relationship, despite what X walking out" - remind her of what she owes you - "As I said, contact the school directly"

Thanks. Am I mad to even be accepting this level of involvement though?
When she starts on 'bigging up' DS in front of DD, I always agree and add that DD is equally as kind/clever/helpful/funny. I wonder if sometimes, I overdo it and DS thinks I am denying him his time in the sun?

My bstrd exH is her delight (after wedding she said 'oh you're not my pet anymore- I have to share you now'). She was always cuddling and kissing exDH, going off into other room to have a quiet chat etc etc Clearly my DS is to fill his space.

How do I allow kids to have a relationship with exPIL that is not poisonous and allows them to grow up and see things for themselves? Am I deluding myself?

I don't think you CAN allow your DC to have a relationship with people that are ultimately poisonous. These people won't change. I think you need to understand that they are warped and will never be healthy people to be around.

Ultimately they have no rights to see the children, and if you see that they are harmful to your children (which they are) then you can cease contact.

In time you can tell them why. You can't have her bigging up one child and you bigging up the other, it's just not going to work. Your DS will wonder why you are not talking about HIM. He WILL see his GM as 'nice', how else could he see this?

Better to sever ties now and reduce contact all around. Remember, your MIL MADE your ExH the way he is.

I know this in principle but often, ex will collect kids from me here at contact time (agreed between us- nothing formal- I have bent over backwards to be reasonable about this) and he will drop them to his parents. He goes off about his business and the first I know of it is when exPIL drop them back. (Ex works tremendously hard at his tremendously important job and many people rely on him.
Kids will plead with me to visit them; to have PIL mind them if I have to go somewhere.

I am stuck really- my own family is (not quite as) dysfunctional and lives approx 100 miles from here. I was distanced from friends while married (they werent welcome in our home, he didnt approve of them or actively antagonised them).
So yes, I can refuse kids contact with their grandparents, and start a massive row that I dont have the resources to fight.

Sorry I know this sounds like the worst kind of post; looking for advice and actively arguing against it when received- but I am trying to work out what my kids want and need vs what is unhealthy for them.
i.e. they want and need an extended family- but on both sides, the families are manipulative, bullying with no regard for feelings.

Bump.....
any advice or is there something obvious I am missing?

You have to be honest here. Will this golden child worshipping harm your children?

If the answer is yes, then you have to make decisions and take steps to prevent that.

A child raised in an abusive situation will always form strong bonds with the abuser... out of fear that if they don't, the abuser will turn on them.

You are facillitating a scenario where they learn to love that which will destroy them.

You say you don't have the resources to fight them, neither do your poor kids.

You don't have to allow mil access. You cam prevent it all. No contact plan is in place.

They don't need an extended family that will harm them.

Go out and find new friends, male and female and replace all the crappy people you've been surrounded by. Make a new family.

Have you done the freedom programme? Have you had counselling? What have you done to heal from this? You can't heal without outside help, it only gets buried.

What your children want isn't always what's best for them. As their parent and an adult, you can look at things in a way that they just cannot.

What you describe has the potential to cause great harm to them. Not physically, but to certainly screw them up.

How do you think your daughter feels? She will grow up hearing how great her brother is and nothing about her (from them) don't think that that won't have a profound effect on her.

And your son, well, you know what they created in the son they had. How do you think that happened?

you should know because you're seeing it happening to your son.

So is what your children - innocent, naive, unable to understand what's going on here - want, really what they need and what's best for them?

"How do I allow kids to have a relationship with exPIL that is not poisonous and allows them to grow up and see things for themselves?".

In this case you cannot. Any contact with these people will emotionally harm them. This is about power and control apart from anything else. The apple did not fall far from the tree in your soon to be ex H's case; both he and his parents are toxic and thus poisonous to be around. They will start on your children given any opportunity and you are already seeing overt favourtism towards one child at the expense of the other. Its already affecting these children, your son is being overtly favoured and he is picking up on it all too clearly. You also run the risk of seeing their own brother/sister relationship being ruined over time because of this overt favourtism shown by his toxic grandparents. They are too young to realise that they are being manipulated but you all are being manipulated here.

Would certainly suggest you read Toxic Inlaws written by Susan Forward as that could help you as well.

Cut this awful lot out of your lives, they do not being anything positive into it.
Your own dysfunctional bith family gave you a bad start as well, you need to clear out all the negative toxic people in your life and replace them with emotionally healthy role models for you and your children.

Counselling for you is certainly a good idea; a lot of stuff I feel has been buried and it needs unpicking. BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

Any assertiveness is seen as aggressively preventing them seeing them.

Stop giving a shit how they perceive you, and carry on being assertive. Be MORE assertive.

they want and need an extended family- but on both sides, the families are manipulative, bullying with no regard for feelings.

They do not need manipulators and bullies in their lives, blood ties or not. In fact, having manipulative bullies in your life who ARE related to them and have frequent contact with them is hugely damaging to children, who are instincively trusting of their adult caregivers, and developing their own sense of self. Having such people around only fucks up their sense of self - as you yourself experienced growing up.

Fight that fight: it's worth it.

Don't let her have your tickets, you are their mother and that is far far more important then grandparents.

Please stop worrying about them maintaining a relationship with these people as they sound toxic

Thanks for your MN common sense. I wont give her my ticket, as my precious DD is my beauty.
I feel quite depressed about it today...I have won so many battles over the last 2 years; keeping ex out of the house, insisting that he sticks to an access schedule rather than arrive whenever he feels like it; detaching from my own family who would like to believe that I brought all this on myself because I am so unreasonable.

It's very lonely and frightening to have 2 DC in this situation.
It's almost easier to believe that I am unreasonable and broken and irrational and unbalanced- which is what both my family and in-laws would have me think.Then I can have their help and support- at a very high cost.

I really have no-one on my side.

The only thing I have to hold on to is when I see other people here who have ex's that they describe like mine.

Hissy- you are right. I know myself that an abused child becomes very loyal to their abuser because of fear. I had (and still have) huge problems seeing myself as having had a bad childhood. (YY I have been on the Stately Homes thread-that is my childhood )

My DS has ASD (denied by his dad- I 'made it up to draw attention to myself' apparently) so he finds it hard to understand nuances in conversations. He dominates MIL and she lets him do whatever he wants. Wont adhere to what I ask her re diet, tv viewing time etc etc.
DD has been in a position where MIL and exH pretended to put her beloved, sacred soft toy in the bin 'as a joke' ha bloody ha. As well as hearing remarks like above.

Attila- I have had counselling. Turning my world view around is like turning the Titanic- it takes a lot of time. But I am getting there. I am clearing toxic people out of my life- in doing that I am facing the prospect of actually not having anyone at all.

You're doing fantastically well! Look at all you've done already :)

You have your dcs on your side. And mn. And anyone with half an ounce of empathy.

Could you make some new friends? Or contact the old ones and explain how much you loved them and would love to catch up?

I am clearing toxic people out of my life- in doing that I am facing the prospect of actually not having anyone at all.

Nature abhorrs a vacuum... space vacated by emotional leeches will soon enough be filled by (hopefully healthier and life-enhancing) others.

Well done on hanging on to your perspective and what you know is right, and knowing what it costs to give in to these people.

I too am at the beginning of my Twat Clearance phase of my life. 2 down, a few more to go.

Let me tell you, I know that having NOBODY is better than having a life full of abusers/narcs/whatevers.

At least when you have nobody, you can go do something about it. When your life is full of twats, you have no chance of changing anything. Yes, this process takes time, but we all need to be choosy about who is allowed access to us.

You will make a new 'family' of friends that care about you, that you care about right back. yes you will mourn for what you never had, but understand this and accept that it was not YOUR choice to behave the way they did.

I understand you may be frightened, we all are somehow, but it WILL be better than what we have had to put up with thus far, how could it be any worse?

I'd rather spend the rest of my life alone than to spend it with a roomful of people telling me that I am worthless.

When my ex (abusive) left, i suddenly realised I'd been abandoned by my family, it was catastrophic. I had nothing and no-one.

Only MN.

If nothing else, you have MN, it was an utter lifeline to me. Lean on us as much as you need to.

Hissy I have tears in my eyes at that last post (takes an awful lot to make me actually cry nowadays). I also realised that the wonderful family I grew up with weren't there for me or my gorgeous kids when Ex left.
I read other people talk about their parents taking kids for a weekend or just being there for them. Me? nothing....
That Christmas (first on my own- had ex in for Christmas dinner in my house...all for my kids sake) I visited my own parents....and sat at the table while they shouted at me for being 'in a mood' ('cos I was very quiet).

I dont have real life friends....having grown up being told that I was not a nice person, that I was a moody, irritable cow with no social skills; I thought I had to 'buy' friends by being 'nice' and putting up with whatever sh*t they threw at me. So naturally, I became a target for what I now see are bullies and users.

So I am really in a vacuum in RL. I would like to think that with my hard found wisdom, I could fill the space with honestly nice people- but I dont know where I would find them never mind recognise them.

I'm afraid of leaning on people- have always had to stand on my own- because if I lent on family, they werent there-always with a handy excuse that left me feeling I was asking too much.

Lean on MN ! There are literally THOUSANDS of us here, so if one person's not up to beong leant on, there will be another!

It's not perfect, but it'll give you a bit of practice trusting people, and eventually you'll be able to see your way to trusting people, the right people too in RL.

My mum will do childcare, but in the immediate aftermath, she literally couldn't have been further away without getting on the space shuttle. She went off to NZ.

They'd planned it all summer long, but only felt it necessary to bring to my attention a few weeks before she was going to go.

MOST people ARE nice, so the probability is that you will meet a decent person.

Have faith, your parents were wrong to treat you as they have done, you know that.

Do you have any domestic violence support groups near you? I'm in north Hampshire and we have a few, they are fabulous support

You can't just snap out of this, it won't just go away.

Thanks for the offer of being leant on....
went to DD play this evening- got tickets for me, DS and exMIL...MIL wrapped on DS like a duvet.
Normally I would look away and ignore because theres an element of her doing it to see how I will react.
But with the stiffer backbone (thanks to MNers) I picked him up and put him on my other side (near window so he could get fresh aid). At one point I even murmured 'just leave him be for a minute MIL' as she cossetted him.
I didnt offer her a lift home (have to collect DD-see you soon).

As I said in OP, I think I have just had my standards so badly eroded that this stuff which should be natural is completely new and slightly scary for me.

Hissy I do go to counselling and I thought I was doing great....but at times like this I wonder if the rot is too far gone
Then I grow a pair and realise that if I give up; what will help my DC

Agree wholeheartedly with hissy re:
I don't think you CAN allow your DC to have a relationship with people that are ultimately poisonous. These people won't change. I think you need to understand that they are warped and will never be healthy people to be around.

Ultimately they have no rights to see the children, and if you see that they are harmful to your children (which they are) then you can cease contact.

I would say to this that not only can you cease contact but that you must . They are desperately toxic people - why are you working so hard, 'bending over backwards' to keep these terrifying people in your children's lives? It's a crock of shit that just because they are awful to you, the children have a right to a relationship with them. (I say it's a crock of shit because it's the one I fell for myself - and I am paying the awful price, as spelled out in the original thread.)

I don't, however, agree with this:
In time you can tell them why. If you meant, hissy, telling the toxic MIL/STBXH why you have cut contact, you would be on a hiding to nothing. They will slaughter you: they will never accept what you have to say.

I am stuck really : you are stuck if you continue to try to make workable what is unworkable: the fact is you can't facilitate a relationship with these people, period.

So yes, I can refuse kids contact with their grandparents, and start a massive row that I dont have the resources to fight. You don't have to fight any fight - cut contact. Move if necessary. Be as obstructive, evasive, nonresponsive as possible.

Well done for all you've achieved. Your posts suggest however that there is still an extremely high level of interaction with these horrifying people. Do you do that because you are still afraid of what they will think of you? yy you are doing it for the children (misguided imo, though I understand what makes you feel compelled to do it) but it seems you may still be sensitive of being accused of this or that (all heinous). Forget that: whatever you do, no matter how much you turn yourself inside out, they will still fire flaming missiles at you, so why bother to worry what they think? They are insane - don't measure your values against theirs.

Meanwhile they are mashing up your children in this horrific mess. One victim was enough (you); don't let, or facilitate, your children [continuing to] be victims of these horrifying people.

Freedom Programme , pronto, porridge. If you've done it already, do it again (as I am doing): it really is an extremely good course and goes a very long way to getting one's head straight re longstanding abuse.

Get away my dear, lock stock, to the very best of your ability. And then some.

No springy, i meant in time porridge can tell her children why there's no contact.

No amount of talk will get through to those inlaws.