can you save a marriage on your own?

[Iforgotmyusername]

I've just been looking at this website
www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.html
from another thread. It talks about how we have different needs that we need to have met in a marriage. It makes a lot of sense to me and I think that the problem that oh and I have is that we have very different needs and that he does not experience the ones that I feel and so is not prepared to meet them.

An example is the idea of spending time with one another alone - oh will not. Since we had the children we just spend time with them (at least one of them tends to be awake). Even sex doesn't happen as I can't relax with the idea that they may walk in on us. I have talked to oh about this but he still will not spend time alone with me. I want to talk to someone - bear my soul even - and listen to them but oh just wants us to do things together as a family. Has anyone managed to make this work? I am aware of the dangers of emotional affairs (and have no one in mind ) but I cannot see how I can carry on with no one to talk to. I know that in theory I could "make friends" but that is way harder in practice, as everyone is so busy.

I am probably not making sense here - I do not mean that I am looking for an affair - but I am desperately lonely and reading that website made me realise that this is because my particular emotional needs are not being met within my relationship and are not likely to be.

about the no-sex due to kids-walking-in-option.....I sorted that problem by putting a lock on our bedroom door! One of those simple ones from B&Q, cost abou 3 pounds, takes 5 minutes to put on.

(sorry, can never resist a practical solution)

just read you have one, but the youngest is 6 and crying and banging on the door

That is toddler behaviour. Is he a very unhappy or SN child?

No, I don't think you can save a marriage on your own; I don't think you can save this marriage; and I don't think you should try to save this marriage. That might sound harsh, and I'm sorry for that. However it feels to me - reading between the lines - that you really do know what to do, but you need strength and validation. You have put your energy into this, you seem drained, and it isn't going to change.

I hope you have enough strength left to make a go of it on your own and release both of you to lives that would better suit you.

I also sense that your 6YO is picking up on all of this. He doesn't feel secure because you don't feel secure within yourself. It may well be that his behaviour changes when you and your situation do.

They must be asleep when you're awake at some point? we have four and as the older ones finally go to sleep so the younger one wakes up and climbs into our bed.

I can't divorce him as we are not actually married and so I'd struggle to get anything financially off him. I cannot support myself financially and would not be able to earn enough to cover the childcare. I know that life is cr*p with him but cannot see how it would be better without him as I'd be just as trapped by the children. He does look after them at the moment if I go out to work and so I do get some breaks from the druggery of constant housework.

....He has no right to say you CAN'T go out or CAN'T get a life of your own. Join a gym...
but what do I do with the children then? I need him to agree to look after them if I am going to be able to do anything. I do know that they are his as well and I do know that he ought to look after them etc but I can't actually make him do that.

My sister is divorced with children and so I know that you do not get weekends on your own :( you get phone calls from children left on your doorstep :(

....the youngest is 6 and crying and banging on the door

That is toddler behaviour. Is he a very unhappy or SN child?

no - he is going through a "scared of the dark phase". oh puts him to bed and refuses to let him go to sleep on his own - ie oh sings and cuddles him to sleep each night and so he doesn't get used to going to sleep on his own. I have explained this to oh time and time again but he thinks that it is psycobabble and rubbish

Basically the kids are spoilt

1. Get that 6 year old out of your bed. 2. Do mutual babysitting for your sister so you can both go out occasionally without worrying. 3. How old are the oldest DCs? If one is over 14 they can earn a bit of pocket money babysitting if DP won't look after the younger children. It's not like you have a baby - you have kids aged 6 & up!

Up to you if you stay with DP but the CSA & child tax credits will honestly make sure you have enough to live on if you are on your own plus you'll get 70% of childcare costs if you work if that's the only reason you're staying.

Oh dear....the only person getting anything from this relationship is your OH isn't it.
His rules about the children, how they go to sleep, their access to your bedroom and other rooms, where you go, when you got there, who cleans the house etc etc. From experience, I can tell you that on your own, although dar more confined due to childcare, you actually are more free.

What about you- do you want to be 70 in a Nursing Home looking back at this as your shot at life?
As lydiamama says, walk away a bit so that he has to chase you- and if he wont......

Doesn't matter if you're married or not. If he's the father he has to pay maintenance.

you are more confined grrrr

And they're your kids too! Allowing a 6 year old be patted to sleep & then come into your bed at midnight for rest of night? Allowing older DCs to stay up until midnight? Come on love!!!

Hello Iforgot, I am sorry you are going through this. I can relate to the lack of adult communication / affection because I have the same with my h. We have three children who are 6, 8 and 10. His focus is also very much the children. He is either working (very hard, I don't work at the moment) or at home on the computer in the evenings (for hours). At the weekends we do stuff together as a family like go swimming... on a Sunday, Saturday he is often in a mood with me (more before we started counselling) and I often spend the whole weekend waiting for the week to resume as his presence is oppressive.

We are going to counselling at the moment though I expect him to drop out from week to week as it is very much not his thing (we've only been about three times so far) and the next time we go I will try to express how much I need hugs and some attention but it is hard to think of doing that when I know he is working so hard - it does feel ungrateful, but we have been in a housemates type of relationship for a long long time now (there used to be occasional sex but that is dwindling to even less) and on the other hand it feels sad to think that I may spend the next 20 to 30 years with someone who doesn't like me all that much.

I think many people's relationships end up like mine - for some people this means divorce as it is no longer a "romantic" relationship between a man and a woman but I also think a lot of other people stay together because of their children.
My other issue with my h is the fact that he is impossible to talk to about anything which may press his buttons and he has a short temper which I don't like. I mainly don't feel particularly liked though there are weeks where we rumble on ok just chatting superficially. There's also the familiarity of having known someone for so long. And the fact that he is the kids' father of course.

Sorry am rambling on about myself but I really recognised a lot of your post. What I didn't recognise / was more shocked at, was the fact that you have to account for the time you spend elsewhere. That's controlling and out of order. You should be able to have the life that you desire, partnership shouldn't be a prison. I go out with friends etc.... and h doesn't object, the killer in my case is the fact that when I come back he doesn't show any interest in where I have been or who I have been with, barely raises his head from the computer .

I too do not understand why h doesn't need / want any affection from me or to ever go out and do something with me alone. Maybe a lot of men are like this? I think possibly he is resigned to the fact that we are incompatible and thinks mainly of the children.

I really recognise the loneliness and hope you come to some resolution about what you decide to do. You sound very caring and certainly deserve a loving supportive partner. Divorce / separation is very frightening - I think many people are together because the financial implications of splitting are too enormous to consider .

I think you should be aware of how strong and kind you are and work at boosting your own confidence so that you can work towards the kind of life you want / deserve.

Not getting married is such a huge mistake. Oops, I've said it. That 'piece of paper' is a legal contract. It acknowledges your relationship in society and protects your rights in the god forbid event of things going wrong.

I am so sorry for your lonely position, which I am in too. What I have learned is that the children are used as part of a triangle so that there IS no adult time. He is 'superDad' (mine was too) so that he doesn't have to interact with you.

When the children were born this split went off in his head, and I became simply 'mummy' and housewife. Like you I ceased to be a human being. I also became hugely resentful about housewife duties like you, and like you OH my H was very resentful of the state of the house.

We never, ever had time together. Never. I remember my futile attempts, so make dates, talk to him.
Now I know through Relate that men who are incapable of intimacy arrange their lives so that they don't have it. They choose workaholic jobs, shifts, expat/oil rigs etc., live through the kids, have affairs, to keep you at arms length.

All I can suggest is that you insist you go to counselling. And if he won't go with you, still go and not secretly either: apparently a women continueing to go to counselling even after he has declined, is the biggest thing to overcome his denial that something is wrong.

I would not advocate a power struggle, but to 'give up' on trying to change him (ie accept him for who he is) and really work on yourself: your training, work development etc. When you accept him for who he is, you can give yourself permission to go out etc. (I did this, it didn't change him in the slightest all we did was have separate lives. But at least I got some friends, a bit of emotional support).

The only other thing I can suggest is that you get his acknowledgement of stuff you do down in writing (emails etc).

All the best, think for the long term [where will I be in 8 years' time] and I know how lonely you are.

You are not trapped by the children, you are trapped by him & his control over their behaviour. We all need a bit of a rest in the evenings! The kids do not rule the house! I have 4 DCs. Youngest 2 - oldest 19. The youngest - 7pm - story & bed. Goodnight. If she reappears (moving into a big bed recently was a hellish few days), no chat - back she goes. I watch the One Show cuddled up with DD aged 8 (for some reason she loves it!) & then 730-8pm depending on school night or not, off to bed, no reappearances allowed. Older DCS are now adults & doing their own thing but it was the same when they were younger too. DCs always had to knock on my bedroom door & none were EVER allowed to sleep in my bed after babyhood & even then it was brief!! You have to be in charge!

I think abitwobbly's post was really insightful. If you noticed, I never once suggested you try to change him. Just empower yourself as a parent & an individual to do what you want.

he ought to look after them etc but I can't actually make him do that.

Yes, you can. 'I am going to the gym now, and I will be back in 2 hours. Bye!' [Leave].

When you come back, ride the bad mood/harangue/whatever, and say, 'I will be going to the gym the day after tomorrow, and I will be away for 2 hours'.

[broken record] I hear that you are not happy with it, but I will be going... etc.
If you don't win this one, then what is the point of the battle? If you think there is no point to the battle, then you are agreeing to a complete loss of self. Don't do that, really!

Allowing a 6 year old be patted to sleep & then come into your bed at midnight for rest of night? so what do you suggest that I do? I can't physically stop him doing anything. I could leave and take the children but I think that they would rather stay with him (as he does spoil them) and he would want them. He'd have the income and the children's preference etc so I suspect that he'd end up with the kids - at least joint custody - and so I'd still have all the problems as the children would have completely different boundaries with him than with me.

Do mutual babysitting for your sister so you can both go out occasionally without worrying. we do not live anywhere near one another

feelokayaboutit you sound like you are married to my oh

Lets get back to basics.

1. Imagine you have said to OH - I don't want ds in our bed at night.

What would he say?

1. Now imagine ds coming and it is midnight. You get up and take ds back to his room.

what would happen? what would he say/do?

1. What would happen if you got into ds bed?

1. what would happen if you said 'I am taking your refusal to hear me as confirmation that we don't have a relationship', put ds into your side of the bed at the beginning of the night with oh and slept in his bed?

All these are confrontations/changing the steps of the dance. So tell us how he would react.

In my counselling there was a lot of examining as to WHY I WENT ALONG WITH HIS AGENDA. And you know, change is very uncomfortable. It doesn't just happen, it takes a long time before the change is accepted, you have to push for it and that is scary.

What I suggest you do is stand up for yourself & say no to him. They're your kids too, your house too, your life too. Yes there will be fallout of some sort but at least there will be change. Unless of course you want things to stay as they are?

abitwobbley I have tried talking about it. The problem is that he does had a temper and is worse when tired. He also will discuss things rationally, will agree to x,y and z very quickly (ie not much discussion really) and then claims that "I made him agree". So in the middle of the night I'd try to take ds back (I can't actually carry him any more) ds would cry loudly (I know as I have tried this :( ) and would wake other children up and oh would wake up and shout. I have also tried getting into ds bed but he always wakes when I get out and comes up again. I could perservere and would if oh supported it. Maybe I should try again. I think that I go along with it because I think that he could "buy" the children if we split up (lovely life, lots of stuff with daddy or living in a b&b with mummy...)

Yes there will be fallout of some sort but at least there will be change. Unless of course you want things to stay as they are? it depends on what the fall out is though doesn't it. I don't particularly want to get hit and am not convinced that he will not do so if I push him too far.