Needing some MN wisdon tonight

[PerspectiveUrgentlyRequired]

I must be an addict here as I can't think straight right now, yet all I can think is the best way to get some perspective on this is to ask MN!

I'm going to try not to drip feed, but to give the whole picture on this situation I'd be here all night and no one could be bothered reading war and peace. Snap shot - I'm a lone parent with a 7 yr old DD. My parents are in their 60s and do a lot for me, to help me, and without them I probably wouldn't have gotten through the past 4 years. Prior to having my DD, my relationship with my dad was not good, hadn't been good for years, and my pregnancy actually brought the worst out in him, something I hadn't seen or been subjected to since I left home some 14 years earlier. My mum has been married to him for over 40 years and can't stand up to him. She did virtually nothing to help me growing up, knowing he was a cruel bully of a man, and in some ways I think I grew more angry with her after I had my DD as I couldn't imagine letting anyone treat my DD the way my dad treated me.

I managed to 'get over' what happened in the past after I had my DD as my dad seemed to dote on my DD. I don't think I'll ever forgive him for what he did to me, and the effect it has had on me my whole life, but somehow I was able to put it past me seeing how much he loved my DD, and how well he treated her. Part of the reason I was and am so pleased at the close relationship my DD has with my dad is because her own dad sees her so little. She needed a male role model IMO, and my dad was everything for her that her own dad wasn't, from financial help for me/her to just spending time with her, reading to her, just being what I felt she missed out on from not seeing much of her dad.

Recently my DD has become more difficult to deal with, and I've struggled with her as I generally get the brunt of her bad behaviour. At the beginning of being on my own with her, I smacked her twice (she was about 3 or 4, and I smacked her on her bum when she was wearing a nappy, not that that excuses it), and hated myself for it as I swore I would never do that to my own DD, given the upbringing I'd had and my feelings I had about that. Both occasions I was stressed, struggling with DD and just lost it with her. I felt so ashamed and awful about it that I swore I'd never do it again. And I haven't. I've done parenting courses and got help with discipline and general parenting so as to avoid getting into a similar situation where I lost control to that extent. I've spoken to both my parents about it, telling them that I would not smack again, and made it VERY clear that no one else would do that to my DD either. Main reason for even saying that is I know both my parents think my parenting now is too soft, and that all my DD needs is a smack to sort her out.

Earlier this evening, my DD hit me repeatedly out of frustration over something she was arguing with me about. I was so angry with her, but all I told her was that she would go straight to bed when she got home and to not speak another word (as all she want'ed to do was argue her point as she can't let go when she feels hard done by - I'd told her she didn't have time to draw when she got home as it was late). When we got home I spoke to her calmly and told her how disappointed I was with her behaviour and that she should never ever hit me again. It was said in such a way that she knew how bad her behaviour had been, and she was very upset by this time as she hates getting into trouble. I told her that hitting was wrong and that I would not tolerate it. She said to me, what if you hit me, and I said that I would never ever hit her. I spoke to her about how I'd smacked her twice when she was younger and I hated myself for having done it, and had promised myself and her that I would never do that again. I explained that hitting never solves anything, and that she would not get her own way by hitting anyone. She then told me that her grampa smacked her last year when she was on holiday with my parents, and it hurt. She was crying really hard by this point, and said her gran told her grampa to leave her alone. She was crying in her room at their caravan (she can't remember why or why her grampa was angry with her) and her grampa came into her room, pulled down her trousers and smacked her bare bum.

Neither of them told me about this, and my DD never did either. I am beyond angry right now. But I feel like a hypocrit given that I'd smacked my DD when she was younger. I've told my DD that I'll speak to both my parents to tell them they are never to smack or hit her under any circumstances. But is that enough? They knew how I felt about this already, and that didn't stop him turing into that raging bully he was with me all those years ago, with my DD. And my mum kept quiet as well. I'm just so angry not just at the fact he hurt my DD, but that my mum, as she did all those years ago, just let him get away with this. She never said a word to me. Not one word.

I need help to work through this, as I'm likely to say or do something that I'll regret. This situation is further complicated by that fact that my brother cut my parents off from his 3 kids after my DD was born, for unlreated reasons (he never got the brunt of my dad's temper, and they never set a foot wrong with his kids, partly because his wife would occasionally threaten them with their kids i.e. they'll never see them again because she wasn't happy with something).

Can I say well done for turning things around yourself with your dd and taking parenting courses etc it sounds like you're doing really well and you learned from the past and changed things for the better, that's great for her to see.

Your dad on the other hand has not learned nor seems to want to It all sounds toxic, from an objective outsider's point of view, and I'd be thinking about drawing some firm boundaries wrt your parents. You might get professional help yourself eg counselling to help with this if you felt like going down that route.

I'd be livid if I were you as well. You might want to read toxic parents by susan forward. I hope others will be along soon with more advice. Stately homes thread may also be able to help here?

Hello, I think you are managing very well . You need to talk honestly and calmly with your parents and put in boundaries. A casual observation is that your SiL has a perspective that may be valuable. You dismiss her and your brother's decision but why not ask them about their choice. It may not be as without grounds as you suppose. Check out the levels of expressed emotion in your family and work on strategies to defuse flash points, you probally can't cut them off as they help you so much but remember you are The Mum. You may need to keep them away from sole care until trust is rebuilt.

My blood ran cold when I read the bit about him pulling down her trousers and smacking her bare bottom. That is something I could never ever forgive. It's one thing for a parent to smack a nappied bottom in a moment of frustration, it's entirely another for someone other than a child's parent, a person who has been told not to smack, to follow a child into her room, humiliate her and degrade her by pulling down her trousers and then hit her. If mine or DH's parents ever did that I don't think I would ever let my child be around them again. I would be so angry I would be quite frightened about what I would do if I saw them face to face.

Thank you sarah, you are right about my dad. My mistake was to think that he had learned from our past, and knew how I felt about smacking, not least because I'd told them both no one would ever lay a finger on my DD. My problem is that they both know I did smack her and I know that will be used against me/in his defence. Which is why I'm finding how to approach this so difficult.

Thanks for the replies. mummydarkling my brother and SIL also cut me off, so no source of help there. It's a very complicated history, but the issues surrounding my brother and SIL are based upon that fact that my SIL is herself a very toxic person, and has her own issues. My parents toxicity wasn't the issue in that situation, I know exactly why that happened, and while my dad didn't help things, my parents weren't the protagonists in that scenario. I'd be better starting a whole other thread for that!

Cailin, your post sums up exactly why I'm so angry. It also brought back memories from my own childhood, ones that I swore my DD would never experience. My rage isn't subsiding.

i dont think i could trust my parents to have my dc agai after knowing tehy did this and kept it from me.

What do you feel you should do OP?

Even if you had smacked her and intended to continue but asked them not to, that wouldn't be unreasonable. You did it by mistake because it had been done to you and it made you realise it's not the right way to behave or how you want to parent. This is all the more reason for them not to do it.

It sounds to me like you feel a bit scared of them or as though you don't have grounds to be angry when in fact you do

I agree with the poster who suggested speaking to your brother/sil as a possible option.

You sound like a caring parent and you underestimate your own strength IMO because it sounds as if you have achieved all you have despite your parents rather than because of them

sorry x posts scrap what I said re bro/sil.

Op what you did is understandable and common,what your Dad did is vile and abusive. Smacked her bare bum?? poor little thing she must have felt terrible. Im not sure that he should be alone with her tbh,especially given his past history with you.

Op I have smacked my children at times in the same way as you,however I would certainly not accept anyone smacking my child ever,at all/

To reassure you I worked in child protection and would have been far more likely to react on what your Dad did than what you have done in the past.

Cailin, what I want to do is stop them from ever seeing DD again. Which is extreme, and not what my DD would want. Given other history, again, it's the one thing I swore I'd never do to them as I know how painful things were with what happened with my brother's kids. I want them to know they were wrong, and they should not under any circumstances, repeat that. But I can't trust them to actually go along with that. That's where I'm struggling. I know how to draw some firm bounderies, but I have absolutely no faith in them actually sticking to them.

I don't know how many times it's happened, as DD has hooked onto the fact that I'm not happy and that she can extract sympathy for this - she's said it's happened maybe 3 or 4 or 5 times, but said in a way that makes me think it's only been the once. She's kind of 'laying it on thicker' for effect, or at least that's the feeling I'm getting. I could ask my mum, but I doubt I'd get a straight or truthful answer.

My DD goes to theirs every friday after school, as I work late on fridays. I am not beholden to them for childcare as I could change things if necessary, but it would have massive implications on DD. Again, something I'm wary of as she's already had her dad leave and barely see her, which is all his choice, nothing to do with me preventing him from seeing her. And despite all this, my DD loves her grampa. A lot.

OP think about what you're saying. Your father was abusive to you as a child, you know he is a bully. You now know that, against your wishes, your father has humiliated and hurt your child, so much so that she was distraught talking about it. Not only that but she didn't tell you about it when it happened, which makes me suspect that along with your mother and father covering it up, they also told your daughter not to say anything. Now you're saying that even if you do set boundaries they aren't likely to stick to them.

Continuing to allow your parents to see your daughter without your supervision puts your daughter at risk.

The fact that your DD is now saying it happened more than once is also really worrying. It may not be true, but to me, lying like that would indicate that she is desperate for your sympathy and for you to realise that something is wrong - she is craving your validation and for you to say that what her grandfather did was wrong and now that you've had that reaction she's milking it because she really needs to feel protected by you. I'm afraid that that's the classic reaction of a child who feels terribly insecure - embellishing incidents that cause a reaction in an attempt to feel "seen" and protected.

Cailin, thank you for your comments. I agree and feel the same about why my DD is embelishing. I have reassured her and will protect her. I've just got off the phone to my mum - she called me about her new kitchen. I wanted to see her and him face to face to address this but I couldn't not say anything. She says she can't remember this happening. Says I'll need to speak to my dad to ask if it actually happened. I told her what my DD said she said when this happened, and then she got defensive and hung up on me.

I had a feeling she would deny it happened.

Poor DD.

At least she has you to stand up for her. I suspect that the bond of trust is well and truly broken, and you will need to make other arrangements for childcare.

It is up to you if you are prepared to allow contact to continue with the GPs, but at the very least I would be confronting them to say you believe your DD, it is unacceptable, and they will not be getting unsupervised access from now on.

I know you want a male role model, but this isn't the model you or your DD need.

Excellent posts Cailin.

I would set aside what happened with your brother as a separate issue.

What's important here is that:

• your dad has deliberately hurt and humiliated your dd.

• your mum has shown that she will defend and protect your dad but not your dd.

• you feel (rightly) that if you ask them not to treat dd like this then they will ignore your wishes.

At the very least you need to make alternative arrangements for childcare. Your parents have shown you that they will always put themselves before your dd.

If your parents lose contact with their grandchild then it will be because of their own actions/inaction. Don't fall into the trap of feeling sorry for them or feeling guilty. If they genuinely believed that what happened was 100% correct they wouldn't have hidden it from you.

Thank you all for your replies/posts. I am back at work on friday and will be looking to get my shifts changed to avoid using my parents for childcare. I will be talking to them both at the weekend and telling them that they are not to lift a finger to my DD for any reason. They won't get the chance as she won't be there without me from now on.

I'm feeling a tad emotional now. My DD really has been dealt such a shitty hand. First her uncle/cousins have nothing to do with her, then her dad fucks off and rarely remembers she exists. And now her only grandparents have just screwed up their relationship with her too. There isn't a single member of her close family other than me who hasn't let her down in one way or another.

There is absolutely no way you can leave your DD in your parents care ever again. I'm not saying cut them off, but you need to supervise visits. I'd say that is non-negotiable. You blame your mother for not sticking up for you- don't do the same thing to your daughter.

Secondly- you say your daughter loves her grandpa, and you seem to think that this should affect your decisions/actions now. It is important to realise that 'loving' an abuser is a very common feeling. I'm not saying dismiss your daughter's feelings, but you are the adult here. You know what's best for her in the long run, and if you think that cutting of her grandfather is the right thing to do, well then she'll get over it.

Lastly, you say that the fact that you have hit her in the past may be used against you- no way! Even if you use smacking as a form of discipline, what your dad did does not fall under this remit. He humiliated her and hurt her. It is not the same thing. I smacked my toddlers hand the other day when she went to touch the oven. Does this mean her childminder has permission to give her a beating? No it certainly does not!
You do not have to justify your decisions to anyone. You sound really strong and together. Please trust in your own parenting skills and do the right thing by your DD.

Just read your latest post- the key words: 'other than me'.
You are all she needs. A wonderful loving mother is worth 20 other relatives.

fairy I'm glad you've said that re DD loving her grampa. I hated him for what he did. I truely believed that my dad hadn't gone as far with my DD with his temper because she loves him so much. I've had feelings of hate towards my dad as long as I can remember, so for her to not feel that way I've wrongly taken as a sign that he wasn't abusive with her when I wasn't around.

No your DD has not been dealt a shitty hand. Don't you dare say that! She has a mother that loves her to death, works at changing her behaviour for her and will protect her no matter what.

That's a hell of a lot more than you got, isn't it? It's more than I got too Perspective, and I think it would have meant the world to me if I'd had a mum like that.

Thank you triffid, that means a lot to me.

I agree with the others.

Your dd is extremely lucky to have you. You're worth more to her than a million other relatives.

Look at the difference even now between you and your own mum. Your dd says her grandad hit her:

Your mum's response - "Um, I don't really remember."

Your response - "No way is dd being left alone with them again!"

I think the problem here is that your dad is still a bully (he's not going to have changed overnight) and you are not confident about leaving them with her.

I think if you ask your parents, as mine have, to look after your children for long periods when they are little, there is a chance that they might have that one flash of temper and smack them, just as a parent might do even if they are 'anti-smacking' (which is easy to say, but less easy to do, I really have very few friends who have not smacked their children once in their lives). Even my saintly mother, who is so patient and kind, smacked my eldest once (in 8 years); the difference being that she told me immediately about it and was mortified, just as I was on the few occasions I smacked my children, she cried her eyes out, bless her.

But, because my mum was a caring mum and I know she really really would not do it again, and was so upset to have even smacked once, I have and had full faith in her continuing to parent my children when I'm not there.

I don't hold her to a higher standard than I hold myself, or my husband, we all make mistakes, but all the signs are that your dad is a bit of a nasty person, and as you say, that's going to be more of an issue as she grows older and more defiant, and you can't trust your mum to protect your dd (as she didn't protect you).

You don't need to do anything drastic, perhaps just get together altogether as a family rather than them taking her off.

I also wouldn't apologise a million times over having smacked her when younger, as you have noticed, she is now milking it. Personally, I think that level of grovelling to a small 4 year old is actually unhelpful.