Needing some MN wisdon tonight

[PerspectiveUrgentlyRequired]

I must be an addict here as I can't think straight right now, yet all I can think is the best way to get some perspective on this is to ask MN!

I'm going to try not to drip feed, but to give the whole picture on this situation I'd be here all night and no one could be bothered reading war and peace. Snap shot - I'm a lone parent with a 7 yr old DD. My parents are in their 60s and do a lot for me, to help me, and without them I probably wouldn't have gotten through the past 4 years. Prior to having my DD, my relationship with my dad was not good, hadn't been good for years, and my pregnancy actually brought the worst out in him, something I hadn't seen or been subjected to since I left home some 14 years earlier. My mum has been married to him for over 40 years and can't stand up to him. She did virtually nothing to help me growing up, knowing he was a cruel bully of a man, and in some ways I think I grew more angry with her after I had my DD as I couldn't imagine letting anyone treat my DD the way my dad treated me.

I managed to 'get over' what happened in the past after I had my DD as my dad seemed to dote on my DD. I don't think I'll ever forgive him for what he did to me, and the effect it has had on me my whole life, but somehow I was able to put it past me seeing how much he loved my DD, and how well he treated her. Part of the reason I was and am so pleased at the close relationship my DD has with my dad is because her own dad sees her so little. She needed a male role model IMO, and my dad was everything for her that her own dad wasn't, from financial help for me/her to just spending time with her, reading to her, just being what I felt she missed out on from not seeing much of her dad.

Recently my DD has become more difficult to deal with, and I've struggled with her as I generally get the brunt of her bad behaviour. At the beginning of being on my own with her, I smacked her twice (she was about 3 or 4, and I smacked her on her bum when she was wearing a nappy, not that that excuses it), and hated myself for it as I swore I would never do that to my own DD, given the upbringing I'd had and my feelings I had about that. Both occasions I was stressed, struggling with DD and just lost it with her. I felt so ashamed and awful about it that I swore I'd never do it again. And I haven't. I've done parenting courses and got help with discipline and general parenting so as to avoid getting into a similar situation where I lost control to that extent. I've spoken to both my parents about it, telling them that I would not smack again, and made it VERY clear that no one else would do that to my DD either. Main reason for even saying that is I know both my parents think my parenting now is too soft, and that all my DD needs is a smack to sort her out.

Earlier this evening, my DD hit me repeatedly out of frustration over something she was arguing with me about. I was so angry with her, but all I told her was that she would go straight to bed when she got home and to not speak another word (as all she want'ed to do was argue her point as she can't let go when she feels hard done by - I'd told her she didn't have time to draw when she got home as it was late). When we got home I spoke to her calmly and told her how disappointed I was with her behaviour and that she should never ever hit me again. It was said in such a way that she knew how bad her behaviour had been, and she was very upset by this time as she hates getting into trouble. I told her that hitting was wrong and that I would not tolerate it. She said to me, what if you hit me, and I said that I would never ever hit her. I spoke to her about how I'd smacked her twice when she was younger and I hated myself for having done it, and had promised myself and her that I would never do that again. I explained that hitting never solves anything, and that she would not get her own way by hitting anyone. She then told me that her grampa smacked her last year when she was on holiday with my parents, and it hurt. She was crying really hard by this point, and said her gran told her grampa to leave her alone. She was crying in her room at their caravan (she can't remember why or why her grampa was angry with her) and her grampa came into her room, pulled down her trousers and smacked her bare bum.

Neither of them told me about this, and my DD never did either. I am beyond angry right now. But I feel like a hypocrit given that I'd smacked my DD when she was younger. I've told my DD that I'll speak to both my parents to tell them they are never to smack or hit her under any circumstances. But is that enough? They knew how I felt about this already, and that didn't stop him turing into that raging bully he was with me all those years ago, with my DD. And my mum kept quiet as well. I'm just so angry not just at the fact he hurt my DD, but that my mum, as she did all those years ago, just let him get away with this. She never said a word to me. Not one word.

I need help to work through this, as I'm likely to say or do something that I'll regret. This situation is further complicated by that fact that my brother cut my parents off from his 3 kids after my DD was born, for unlreated reasons (he never got the brunt of my dad's temper, and they never set a foot wrong with his kids, partly because his wife would occasionally threaten them with their kids i.e. they'll never see them again because she wasn't happy with something).

Thanks again for the replies. Mumsy, I haven't 'grovelled' to a four year old - she had no idea what my 'inner conflict' was when I smacked her when she was younger. I explained to her yesterday that I would never hit her, when she said to me 'what if you hit me'. She was trying to explain/justify her hitting me by getting defensive about what she did. I just tried to make it clear that hitting is not acceptable no matter what justification she had. I was honest with her about smacking her in the past, as she probably has some vague memory of it, so it wouldn't have helped to be faux indignant about smacking when I'd done in the past. She's smart and has a sharp memory so if I'd not actually said what I did, her next point would have been 'but what about when you smacked me' so I tried to keep the conversation honest and straight, so as to not get tied up in knots with her over this issue. She's bloody good at picking up even the slightest inconsistency in detail, and is one of the reasons it's hard to deal with her when she's in the mood to argue black is white. I often have to anticipate what she will come back with when I'm trying to tell her to do something/explain something and it's bloody hard trying to keep on top of what I've said/done in the past if it conflicts with something I'm telling her to do/not to do. Maybe it does come across as grovelling to a child, but that wasn't really what happened/how it happened yesterday.

You are right about me not having any confidence in my parents at all now. I'm mad at myself for not seeing the signs that were there, or realising that despite everything that we have all been through and (I thought) learned from the past, my DD was subjected to the one thing I swore I would never do myself or let anyone do to her. It's killing me knowing that, and I'm trying really hard not to got too far with how I deal with it. I will absolutely not leave my DD in their care alone from now on. I've always kept my work pattern flexible for when my mum isn't capable of helping me the way she has done 'til now, so it's all easily changed to avoid putting my DD at risk from my dad. He is very much a bully, and always will be. I now realise that, and am bloody angry at myself for being blind to that fact, despite what I knew about my dad.

Perspective don't be so hard on yourself. You are doing brilliantly at being a mum - all on your own and without any decent role models. Your dd obviously loves and trusts you, even if she can be a handful. She's probably just very clever - smart kids always ask difficult questions and remember what you've said to them.

You gave your parents another chance - not just for your sake but for your daughter's sake too. That showed a willingness to forgive, which is a great quality. Unfortunately, they weren't worthy of it.

Please don't get angry with yourself. Be angry at them - or sad for them. But be proud of yourself. We're all proud of you. You sound ace.

I wasn't trying to make you feel bad, sorry, just to say that as the parent, you have natural authority and once you've said sorry once, I would move on.

Don't beat yourself up about it, you know about it now and can decide what to do. I echo everyone else, you sound lovely and your dd is lucky to have you (I know what you mean, when you have a small/non-existant extended family you do feel a bit guilty). I don't think your dad is probably the best male role-model, she can either have other nice men (friends?) or you, as it's better to model being a good person than to worry about the gender.

Thanks again, mumsy you didn't upset me with what you said, it's just very similar to the kind of comments I get from my parents over how I deal with DD. So maybe I'm a bit defensive because of that. I only ever say sorry once - I always make sure we (DD & I) have a cuddle when she's been punished for something, and she knows to say sorry herself. She's good at telling me to say sorry when I've been out of order - and I'm big enough to admit when I've been out of order about something. It's something I wish I'd had with my parents and I hope it makes a difference with my DD. She's fiesty and hard work, and I try really hard to talk to her and explain x y or z so that she has an understanding on where I'm coming from, while at the same time, I make it clear that it's not a debate despite her best efforts to make it one and I mean what I say.

My parents see me 'pandering' to DD, and think a 'good smack' is all that's needed to sort her out. I don't get it right with DD, I can be very shouty when I know that just escalates things but trying to get my point across to a 7 yr old shouting at me sometimes gets the better of me. Yesterday has been a revelation for me in more than one way, and before I can really tackle this properly with my parents (which they'll make bloody hard too) I need to get it right myself. Everyone's comments on here have been very helpful, and I guess my instinct of seeking the wisdom of MN was right.

I guess how this goes is going to depend entirely on how my parents take on board what I say to them. I'm not overly optomistic that they'll take it well - my mum certainly didn't last night - but I'm not going to let this just get swept under the carpet. That's what usually happens, and it's always frustrated the life out of me that nothing ever gets resolved as either they'll avoid talking about it or just deny any/all knowledge of it. This might sound bizarre but my mum thinks that if she pretends somethings is how she wants it to be, then it'll happen. 2 weeks ago she cooked a load of pork chops I can't stand pork chops and then tried to pass them off as chicken steaks. Just because she was insistent that they were pork chops, I was made to feel like I was mad for not believing her. Bonkers.

Right, I'm off to tidy up my DD's bed room. Thanks again for the help/advice.

weren't pork chops

Perspective, would you consider counselling for yourself? You've put huge effort into improving things for your DD but it sounds like you have a lot of hurt and anger that is still affecting your life.

Your parents way of bringing up a child is just terrible, you know how unhappy you were and the issue is that although you can, and are, making attempts to find a new parenting model, while you continue contact with your parents you will inevitably be dragged back into their appalling world.

Your daughter will undoubtedly pick up on the conflict within you and the tense situation with her family. I would hazard a guess that she is focussing on "loving" her granpa as she has correctly identified that his relationship with you is the main cause of tension in her life.

If you look at the Stately Homes thread you will see a lot of wisdom from women who are struggling to escape the malign influence of their dreadful parents, and this poor relationship is always thrown into relief when the issue of parenting the grand-child comes up.

In order to sort out your parenting style and provide consistency and safety to your daughter you need to cut your parents out of your life. This should not form a debate with your parents or your daughter, it must be presented as your decision, and then follow it through.

While you have any contact with them and your father's abusive behaviours you and your daughter have no chance of a long term healthy relationship and you are constantly dragged down by the behaviour of your father and the stress and rage you feel towards him.
You can stop your daughter experiencing the terrible childhood you did, but only by removing the cause of that pain and rage which does mean cutting off your parents. Cutting only one out won't work as your mother would continuously try to get you all together again, she has been damaged by your father as well.

I had an abusive grandparent and it is hell as you watch your parents being belittled and humiliated. My mother wanted to cut contact and my dad wouldn't let her and this was a mistake. In the end my mum managed to make sure I was out of the house whenever granny came round, but this wasn't until the teenage years, my brother and I still shudder when we mention granny.

It is also plausible that your father, being abusive, will at some point try to manipulate your daughter to be "on his side" and against you...my grandmother did this. It was horrible.

I have to say I agree totally with Miggsie but I don't think you're at the point yet where you can contemplate cutting them off, which is why I suggested counselling. Over time, with support, I think you will come to see that leaving them behind completely is the only way to cut off their influence over you, and I think if you do cut them out your life will be far far happier. But that will take time I think. In the meantime it's essential that you protect your daughter from them.

Miggsie thank you for that post. And Cailin too. I have had counselling, a fair bit of it, but I know myself things aren't resolved or fixed at all. I mentioned earlier that my pregnancy brought the worst out in my dad - that was when I last had counselling, which was as a direct result of his behaviour and treatment of me after I told him I was pregnant. I saw a CPN during my pregnancy, and about 9 mths after I had my DD I had CBT. I confronted him just before I had my DD, as everyone pretty much forced me to speak to him (my brother, his wife, my mother, my aunt, my mum's best friend) after I'd said then I would not ever see or speak to him again after what he put me through. I think part of the reason I felt I'd actually got through to him and he realised the 'error of his ways' was because of what happened when I did confront him. It took so much for me to actually face up to him when I was absolutely terrified of how he would react, but in my mind I had nothing to lose as I'd already decided to cut him off.

I do think that I've learned a lot from the counselling I've had, and in some ways I'm not sure if I'd benefit from more. It's something I'll think about though.

Perspective, the pork chop thing is exactly the sort of thing my mum would do - absolutely crackers, and I know exactly what you mean! That aside, your DD sounds just lovely, really bright. It makes me very to think of her being humiliated and smacked by your father. I would steer clear, although I know that is easier said than done. You sound like you've done a great job with DD and have a strong relationship with her. Don't think she's been dealt a raw deal, please. She has you in her life!

What prompted you not to cut your parents off that time when you confronted him?

Cailin it's a long story really but I was continually being told by everyone around me that I would need all the help going when I had my DD, and that I should 'mend bridges' while I could because after DD was here and it meant my dad wouldn't see her, that it would be too late. I was pretty vulnerable when pregnant as my then OH wasn't a great support, I was very ill during my pregnancy, and I did actually need help - I just didn't want it from my dad. The problem was that no one else would give me the help I needed, and I was pretty much blackmailed into facing my dad because of it. The weird thing with my dad is I'm exactly like him - I know how he thinks, and I can tell what he'll say or do in a given situation. I used to be very like him behaviour-wise when I was much younger, but I realised a long time ago that behaving like a huffy 5 yr old wasn't the way to win friends and influence people. I basically told him what he was thinking, why he thought that way, and why he was utterly wrong about what he thought was going on. He was astounded that I could read him that way, and fell apart, blubbering like a baby, apologising for getting things so wrong and so out of proportion about me and my pregnancy. We talked for a long time, and by the end of it all, he seemed to understand for the 1st time ever that he had fucked up completely and nearly lost the chance to be a grampa to my DD.

Since that day, until my DD was about 6, he has been pretty much on his best behaviour. The laspes have happened more recently, co-inciding with my DD no longer being the small, cute toddler/baby she was, with her having her own opinion on things, and a willingness to argue her case. I should have realised that things were changing, I'm sure there were signs but I've mentally dismissed them for various reasons.

When you say he's been on his best behaviour, does that include his behaviour towards you, or is it just towards your DD?

Both. I've always had strong feelings about my dad and what he put me through growing up, but somehow that seemed to melt away after my DD was born. I genuinely no longer felt as strongly about him after my DD was born as my DD clearly loved him, and he was really good with her. And he treated me with what seemed like respect for the 1st time in my life. After we had had our very long chat, I just felt that I'd gotten to say what I'd wanted to say my whole life and the reaction to that was not what I expected. I was genuinely shocked by how he reacted, and it did seem to sink in at long last just how much of an utter bastard he'd been to me.

I do need to distance myself and DD from them though. I think the best thing I can do here is to quietly withdraw from them after speaking to them about DD and what he did. I'm not going to make it all dramatic, and have a massive bust up with them. I think 'standing on my own 2 feet' is a good reason to give them if I'm challenged on the changes that are going to happen, and tbh, it's probably about time too. Not that I really do depend on them a lot - I make it sound like I'm living in their pockets but it's really just the childcare on fridays, and occasionally with inset days/school holidays. There has been help with money but not huge amounts (I'm pretty stubborn/proud so don't like going cap in hand). I have a holiday club/childminder I can use more to make up for the shortfall, so it's not going to be that hard to change things around.