It doesn't look like we can get couples counselling

[marykat2004]

Sorry if I am boring people and posting too much. I don't really have an outlet. My friends have their own problems, and though I do speak with them, I can't always bother them.

So, DH relapsed on drinking (after 2.5 years sober). He's been sober 3 weeks now. The relapse was not massive, ie not drinking all the time but sneaking over a period of a few months. He's been grieving for his father (died in September) and been in counseling about 10 months, for depression probably related to heart failure. He's going to meetings and seeing an alcohol counsellor.

I went with him to his counsellor a few weeks ago (the one he's seen for 10 months). We both found it very helpful being in a neutral room with a neutral person. So, we decided to try to get some couples counseling.

I have talked to 2 people at the alcohol advisory place. But they seem to think that because DH was 'dry' for nearly 3 years and yet we still had issues (I have issues with his lack of interest in DD), that our 'issues' were not purely to do with alcohol. So they said we should see a family counseling service.

So, then the alcohol of family counseling people phoned me yesterday and said they want to talk to CAMS. DD has had trouble in school and was referred to CAMS several months ago, which really made both me and her feel uncomfortable. We saw them once in January, explaining that DH's health problems and bereavement were affecting the family. We saw them again in April and we said that things had improved. But the school seems to still have a problem with DD being too quiet, so they said we might see the CAMS lady at the school.

I feel like such a mess but I have no choice but to button my lip. DH is not going to go to CAMS as he has his own problems to deal with (bereavement, his brother's suicide which was 20 years ago but he never got over, his heart problems, his alcohol) so I can't be dragging him into DD's problems.

We can't afford private counseling so I don't know what to do.

thanks for listening.

For some reason you seem to think DH's happiness is #1 priority and, because of that, you're making excuses for his behaviour and absolving him of any responsibility either towards himself, you or his child. Your poor daughter is getting brunt end of living with such a dysfunctional person, your own state of mind sounds poor and I think you need to switch things around urgently and make yourself and your child #1 and #2 priority. Many people cope with stressful situations in life without turning to alcohol and without damaging those around them. If he's not even interested enough in you and DD to attend a CAMS session then he doesn't deserve to be part of your family any more.

Read this thread from further down the board. Your first responsibility is to yourself and your daughter... not a grown man.

Thank you for that link. But there has been no violence. Not even any shouting other than my own. I am guilty of shouting. DH never raises his voice let alone hits anyone.

There is an awful lot on this mumsnet website about leaving husbands. I would say 90% of thread I read are about leaving.

But, if you compare it to operations, physical things, if you look up your operation online it will seem like 90% of people are unhappy with their operation. BUt that's because the happy ones are living their lives, not just posting online. So maybe I shouldn't think 90% of women are unhappy and want to leave - maybe I should think that the happy ones aren't writing posts about their happiness.

You are not being fair to your daughter - does your husband deny that he has no interest in her?

So you're happy then?

I agree with Cogito.

The reason that the unhappy or abused women are generally told to leave us because it's sound advice. The women in happy relationships who don't post don't
need to be told to leave. They're not unhappy or abused!

Your daughter is being affected. Do what's right for HER, not your DH.

There's more than one kind of 'violence' in the world. You don't have to be beaten up to be abused or mistreated. Alcoholics and other addicts are very adept at picking out the hurt and harm in their life to justify their actions. Their 'poor me' reflex is finely honed but it's also a smokescreen for a self-absorbed person that doesn't care as much for the people around them as they do for either their next fix or for themselves. Using the people around them is normal. If you don't care about the effect all this has on yourself, think about your daughter. 'Leave him' might not be to your taste but, all the time he is there, preventing you and your DD from enjoying a normal life, causing your DD to have emotional/behavioural problems, he is having a devastating and possibly long-lasting effect. Call it what you will.

so I can't be dragging him into DD's problems.

(I have issues with his lack of interest in DD)

Well it sounds like he is her problem! You have to put your DD first, whatever it takes.

focus on Dd and see CAMHS.

if her counsellor wants to see the whole family then yes you will need to drag DH into it. he cant live in a separate bubble.

you cannot separate everything and dh has repsonsibility towards DD too, as well as addressing his own issues seprately.

also you might benefit yourself from seprate counselliin it all sounds overwhelming.

whatever . you syold not be buttoning up - you need ot talk to everyone invovled.

but prime person at cente of this is DD and getting to the route of her issues.

which are probbaly linked to everyon else in the family. you adn DH both need to be involved in her appoitnments - when the cousnellor asks you to be there

Like cestlavielife, I think you could benefit from seeing a counsellor on your own - you say you can't afford private counselling, however I think you might be able to get a referral from your GP

marykat i remember some of your other posts now... it is a complex story right? lots of things going on.

"We saw them once in January, explaining that DH's health problems and bereavement were affecting the family. We saw them again in April and we said that things had improved. But the school seems to still have a problem with DD being too quiet, so they said we might see the CAMS lady at the school. "

this.
it comes across as tho you desperately wanted them to go away by making excuses

first by saying oh well it is to be expected, there were these issues - when these go away everything wil be fine...

then later you so wanted them to clear off because "things had improved"

now you seem upset they wanting to help you by referring to CAMHS.

it comes across as tho you dont really want help. but then again you do but only as a couple? why do you want couples counselling? what do you hope to achieve by that? (you dont need too answer but you need ot be clear ni our head)

it all sounds very confused. and confusing. my head would be spinning.

but - i think you should really focus on getting CAMHs support for your DD and take it from there.
they will want to speak with both you and your DH. they will need to see the family dynamics. and who knows if dh understands the impact on dd he may buck up (or not)

speak to your GP also for your llocation of six individual for you nhs sessions they will really help i am sure of it.

ssorri typos
you need to be clear in your head why you want couples counselling and what you think it might achieve

(when first dd needs help)

But does labelling a child as having 'problems' help the child? My daughter seems to be doing a lot better now that she isn't being told she has 'problems.' We used to have battles over bedtime and eating. I don't know why we don't have them now. Maybe I've realised that a 7 year old who gets up at 8 am doesn't need to go to bed at 7:30 (we used to spend 90 minutes arguing and her getting out of bed and me stessing because she wasn't getting 12 hours of sleep a night). Also the more pressure I put her under about food the less she eats. She seems to eat more now because I'm not putting so much pressure on her.

I'd like to start a separate thread for women in their forties, asking if their fathers played much role in their childhood? I hardly saw mine because he worked all hours. I don't feel abused or neglected because of that. He earned money to support the family. That was how it was back then. Maybe I am expecting too much from my DH.

I am really focusing on my daughter. I am not ignoring her. We do a lot together. I show her and tell her about different jobs (for example, we visited an animation studio today, and we have lots of conversations about all sorts of topics), take her on outings to museums or nature reserves. We visit people with children and she plays with other children, outside the ones at school.

If the family splits up DD will not see her father. I can't imagine him living in a situation where she would be able to visit. So she sees him for 10 or 20 minutes a day at the moment. She knows he is ill (heart condition.)

I'm sorry I guess I sound confused but maybe I better stop posting on this website. I'm not sure what I am doing but I end up getting more wound up. I'm only feeling calmer now because I am fairly exhausted.

There's a difference between having a cheerful and caring father who works really long hours and a father who can't be arsed with you. Can you not see that?

But is it because he is ill? I mean with heart failure, not the drinking. he had been off drink 3 years and relapsed but seems determined to stay off. I'm not being very helpful by being grumpy.

I'm trying not to feel so angry all the time. We have to wait for this couples counseling, 11 weeks or something like that. Should I really run before I've tried to work things out?

What you are doing is trying not to let others in and hoping to hide the family problems under the carpet.

You would prefer if the school hadn't flagged your quiet DD.
Being labelled as 'having problems' is not her problem.
Getting up after being put to bed and not eating when you tell her to are not the problems the school sees.
They are not the problems she is being referred to CAMHS for.

You need to accept that your DD has a problem and that the cat is now out of the bag. You need to support her and the professionals who will try to help her.

Stop trying to control your H and DD. With an alcoholic the only thing you can control is yourself. You didn't cause his problem and you can't cure it. You do not know what other problems he has or how they are contributing to the way he behaves or feels. It is up to him to figure that out and get himself sorted out if he is interested.

Your DD did not cause your problem here and you should not ignore what she is going through in the interests of protecting your DH or the Family Secret. Don't choose your H over your child. You will not help him and you will destroy your child.

You also need support for yourself. Your emotions are taking over your life and you sound exhausted and at the end of your rope. Have you ever looked into Alanon for families of alcoholics?

I've been to Alanon meetings and find them the most depressing places. I don't find being a room full of miserable people, many of them users themselves, to be at all comforting or helpful.

One point is that the on day DH and I saw a counselor together we were each able to put across our viewpoints on a certain topic, in a way that we hadn't been able to to before. This is why I think we should give this a chance before just splitting up. He has not said he's not interested in his child. Maybe I have the wrong perception of the situation.

The relapse was minor by comparison to what it could have been if I hadn't had such a massive hissy fit at one drinking session. That is, when he defended himself, if I had said "ok you can drink occassionally" he would have carried on until it escalated following a patter over 12 years - quitting, then drinking moderately, then being out of control. But he was caught ONCE, it turns out there were maybe half a dozen times max when I was out of town. He is getting help for himself. He is not an active alcoholic on the level of many many fathers who still live in their families.

My daughter seems to think of this CAMS as some sort of punishment. She has been extra good lately and is showing signs of being smart and interested in learning. She goes to a very competitive school where there are high expectations, and many of her classmates have live in nannies. If she were in a school with other children from council estates she might not find herself singled out as having 'problems.'

So there are no problems really, you're quite happy with the status quo and you'll just carry on as normal?

I don't think you'll find anyone here who'll agree with you to be honest OP, and that seems to be what you're actually looking for.

Denial - that's where you are

'The relapse was minor by comparison to what it could have been if I hadn't had such a massive hissy fit at one drinking session'
-You are saying you have the situation under control here.

'He is not an active alcoholic on the level of many many fathers who still live in their families.'
-First of all, the other alcoholics are not your husband or the father of your child, or living in your house, so I really don't see where comparison with them comes in.
-Secondly, if it takes your presence and your hissy fit to keep him on the wagon, he is a disaster waiting to happen, you are living on a knife edge (and it is affecting you badly - you are angry and emotional) and your child is absorbing it all like a sponge.

The relapse was minor compared to...
He is not as bad an alcoholic as...
-Do you not hear yourself?

'She goes to a very competitive school where there are high expectations, and many of her classmates have live in nannies. If she were in a school with other children from council estates she might not find herself singled out as having 'problems.'
Bullshit. Do you really think they have flagged her because they have to do something to justify their existence and their salaries?

IF your DD is ambivalent about the CAMHS it is because you are opposed to it. I say IF, because you need to ask yourself if what you are doing here is projecting your opposition to it onto your DD. If you support your DD and get behind her she will be able to benefit from what is offered to her. Your DD is trapped in your family and enmeshed in its secret dysfunction and completely dependent on you to help her break free. You need to give her the green light to embrace the outsiders.

Get off the control gerbil wheel and save your daughter.

Family therapy sounds like a good option for you, probably better than couple counselling given problem your h has with his daughter. That needs exploring and sorting

I wouldn't say you must leave. Its an option but not a must. I think if a woman posted that she used have a drink problem and has relapsed due to the death of her father and having depression, I think people would judge her dh for leaving and not supporting. However it is affecting your daughter, she see cahms as punishment because you do. you think couples counselling from these people will be a magic solution. You say you want help but only from the people you want it from. Tell cahms you are trying to get couples counselling but are struggling. Let them help. The more you just try to make out everything is fine the worse it will get. Like I said, leaving could be one option. Your dd doesn't sound happy, it seems like both parents are ignoring the issue. You need to support your dh I get that, but at some point you need to decide if you are supporting him at your dds expense.

Your DD goes to a school where there are 'high expectations' - good. All schools should have high expectations of their students.

So should parents - for their kids and themselves.

I finally mentioned CAMHS to DH and he said it's none of the school's business, that they should just be concerned with teaching facts and figures and not prying into children's lives just because they have a different personality type. If children are too quiet, it's a problem, and if they are too rowdy it's a problem.

When I was 7, we didn't have adults monitoring the playground to watch how children behaved. I read books. I had no friends. I didn't play with anyone. And no one tried to "help" me.

My oldest cousin had "help". Maybe this has something to do with my reluctance. My cousin had "help" for mental health issues, in the 1970s. She was about 10 years older than I was. She was on medication. She disappeared. Her body was identified by dental records. Her sister then shot herself.

I was refused any "help" when I ran into difficulties as a teenager. I don't know what is good or bad, right or wrong, whether my cousins problems were because my aunt married a second cousin who was a fascist arsehole, I don't know at all. I did have plenty of couseling when I was in my 20s and talked all that over. Got through a lot of problems back then but problems in your 20s are different to in your 40s.

By never talking about feelings, my mother raised 3 children who are all still alive, healthy, not in prison or hospital, all on their first marriages (15 years strong, each of us). It all sends me in a tailspin. What is the best for children? All I want is what is best. If my family experience of "help" led to 2 dead cousins, can you blame the mistrust? EVen if I am grounding it on events from 4 decades ago?

I work with homeless people. I fear the worst, fear that getting "help" means a lifetime of being institutionalised. Going down a route of a "problem" life. by not talking about problems, my brother and sister ended up functioning adults, with jobs and houses and families. And the cousins who got "help" are dead. What am I meant to do??? Please do no accuse me of not wanting to help my child. She loves her father. Even if she only sees him half an hour a day. I can see that she loves the time with him, what little time they spend (and I'm here when they spend time now, I don't leave them on their own). Do I really think I'm going to help her by removing us both from this relationship?