What is the difference between forgiveness and facing the truth?

[marykat2004]

Sometimes I am not great with words but I will try...

I have been reading a thread about a cheating husband. It kind of applies to alcoholics as well. Does any one agree? The lying. The broken promises.

I found out that DH has been secretly drinking when DD and I have been out of town for about 6 months. Some of you have read my other posts. The reason I'm starting a new post is to do with forgiveness and truth.

Am I being too harsh? Should I feel like because DH has had 3 weeks of alcohol counseling, that he can be trusted with his child? Should I forgive and forget that 3 weeks ago I found him drunk with his child at home?

It's about perception isn't it? The cheating husband who turns the blame to his wife for accusing him. Being lied to again and again is just that, isn't it? When do you learn to trust again? Do you ever? The men would think we are bad because we don't trust them, don't forgive them. BUt when I read these posts about cheating, looking from the outside, I can't believe these men make out that they are facing false allegations when everything points to truth. How do you know a man will stop cheating? Or drinking? It's what men do. Should we expect them to stop?

I want to go out and do things. I can't change myself to being a person who likes to sit around at home. I'm making weekend plans, all including my DD of course, because I can't leave her with her father. I guess DD and I should be staying home and policing DH, staying home and trying to ... trying to what? Should we suffer even more by staying at home when DD and I want to go out and do things?

I don't think there is any chance of "dad time" for the forseeable future. Why do I still struggle with my anger about it?

Trust doesn't conform to rules of logic and rationality, it's entirely emotional. If you have a bad feeling about it and you can't trust him to stay sober then that's as complicated as it gets. Getting drunk or drinking secretly is not 'what men do'... it's what alcoholics do. Relapsing is also what alcoholics do... as is lying, making promises they can't keep, being devious, selfish and all the rest.

There's nowhere written that the partner of an alcoholic has to stick around and be their carer or keeper, tolerating whatever happens. Life's far too short to carry that kind of dead weight about with you.

Abusers, alcoholics and cheats all function on the same principles (lack of empathy and a sense of entitlement) and use the same defenses (denial, rage, blame, "poor me").

Have you had counselling?
You clearly do have a lot of thoughts and words to get out.

I've had plenty of counseling over the years, but not been able to afford private for a long time, not since my very first counselling nearly 20 years ago. That was the most useful because it was private and ongoing for as long as you want/need/could afford. Long before I met this DH.

I'm ooking for couples counseling now but as we are not working we can't afford private, and now it seems the alcohol services haver referred us back to children's mental health services. Maybe I need to start another thread about it? That it seems we can't get couples counseling now because if it involves children and one parent is dysfunctional the other parents is expected to be 100% perfect and not have any issues. So we can't go and talk together. DH gets all his counseling and I sit around the flat shoveling shit and keep my mouth shut.

If your DH isn't bringing anything to the relationship, you can't trust him and you're angry that your needs are being sidelined as you all try to cater to his problems... why waste more time? A working definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different outcome. Rather than keep trying to flog this dead horse, how about separating and seeing whether your life would be better without him in it?

Just responding to the initial question:
Forgiveness lies within yourself, it prevents hate and resentment and promotes care, concern and moving on.

Forgiveness does not blind one to the truth, neither does it grant a full pardon, by which I mean you can forgive someone but they may still have to face the consequences of their actions.

In your case you could forgive the hurt and harm done to you but a wise person (you) would still recognise that trust has to be earned and until it has been then precautions and safety measures have to be in place for you and your DD. Unfortunately both the drinker and the family have to accept the consequences of his previous behaviour . this may even include separation to avoid facilitating the behaviour or exposing the DC to the trauma of an alcoholic father.

Forgiveness is a conscious act, and one that IME had to be repeated again and again, but it is worth it because it helps us to regain health and wholeness for ourselves, it is not primarily for the good of the forgiven.

If you want to see it worked out in a different context (beware hankies needed) you could watch the film "Amish Grace" 2010 a story based on a real life community and their response to a man-made tragedy.

i think you have at least 3 issues going on
1.His drinking.Dont know anything about this so cant help with this.There must be organisations, and hopefully stuff on the internet that you can read about from the non achoholics point of view
2.Your anger about not being able to trust him.Again ,part of point 1.

3.Trust.In my book,trust has to be earned.It doesnt sound like he is anywhere near the point at which you can trust him at the moment.
4.forgiveness.Is he truly sorry or is he still going back on his word.

PS actually you definitely should not be policing him or changing your life because of his drinking. Drinkers MUST take FULL responsibility for their actions. it is not your job to prevent him from drinking, clear up after he has been or protect him IN ANY WAY from the consequences of his drinking.

This is obviously easier to do if you have separate residences as you have to protect your DD

perhaps these people would be of use to you? www.al-anonuk.org.uk/
or online www.dryoutnow.com/friends-and-family/

There is a Christian?saying, or an American? saying, which I like which is,hate the sin,love the sinner.
He may well not be able to control his drinking.
In which case,it then is not really about forgiveness at all.

There is NO difference between forgiveness and facing the truth. The difference is in what you choose to do about the truth. Denial is not forgiveness, it's self-delusion.

Yes, an addiction is the same as an affair. The addict loves their substance or behaviour more than they love any other person. They deny it to themselves. They see you as interfering with their happiness.

I think you should listen to Cogito. Good luck!

I dont agree that an addiction is the same as an affair.
An affair can be a one off event,an addiction very rarely is.
An affair is a concious effort where the person is doing it deliberately,a person with an addiction may have lost all control over the matter.

Sorry, I meant an addict's behaviour towards their partner is the same, for the same reason (investing their love elsewhere). Interestingly, they trigger comparable brain activity.

no you should not be policing him. he is an adult. he is not your child.

focus on your child.

you do not have to forgive him his cheating/lying/drinking - but you can accept it has happened and decide how to move on.

but he has to do a lot to regain trust - it is not what you do to forgive him but what he does to regain trust.

is it worth battling on and on with him ?

"It's what men do."

it is what some men do.

"Should we expect them to stop?"
it isnt about your expectation but what are the consequences if he does not ? what will you do?

and how can he truly show he can be trusted.

Are you feeling guilty for going out ,and
Are you feeling scared to go out,because he may start drinking when you are out?
Is that what you are angry with him right now about

amillionyears, not bad on all counts. Both about the affair not being like drinking - no matter how attracted someone is to another person, it is still that step that they have to take to actually do it. Addiction is a disease. (people can get 'addcited' to their affairs maybe... many seem to repeat the mistake). And about feeling scared and guilty.

I can't seem to get over that day 3 weeks ago when I felt so relaxed and happy with the novelty of a day by myself. How many of my friends seemed to think this was a good thing. And there was me even thinking, maybe once a month (ONCE A MONTH) I could have a day out like that, just me, leaving my daughter to spend time with her father. That NEVER happens, it's usually me and her at the weekends, going on outings.

And what I came home to means I will never, ever, be able to relax again. And certainly not have a day out without my daughter. But that part is ok. There are lots of things we can do together, me and her. But, yeah, I even feel guilty about that, that I should be at home, policing, not going out with my daughter :(

Forgiving does not mean you have to forget. Neither does it come with a time limit by which you "have to" forgive. What forgiveness gives you is the ability to move on past the hurt and the resentment. But it most certainly doesn't require that you pretend the event never happened.

I will tell you a couple of things that I heard from a counsellor a saw a few years back when I was getting out of a relationship with my alcoholic ex.

If you're finding it hard to forgive someone else, try starting with forgiving yourself. I suspect you're beating yourself up about leaving your daughter with your DH. And maybe for getting your hopes up that everything is ok and stable.

You had no way of knowing he would choose that opportunity to drink. You made a decision based on the information that you had available to you at the time. In hindsight it might have been better for your daughter if you had chosen otherwise but you're not omniscient nor can you expect yourself to be. All too often when you're dealing with the results of someone else's alcoholism it's very difficult to make a "best" decision; I often felt like I was trying to choose between "least worst".

Another tack that can be useful is one of acceptance. He wasn't drinking for a while, then he did at a very poorly judged time, then a little while later he stopped. Those are the facts of the matter. The whys and wherefores of the timing and the justifications etc are his to own. What's difficult is that we often get tied up with fretting over how things should have happened.

Some strands of Buddhism have a concept called Radical Acceptance. The idea is to try to get away from thoughts of how someone "should" have behaved, what they "should" not have done, what you "should" have known in advance, and to get to a state of simply accepting that what happened, happened.

Acceptance doesn't mean you condone what happened or agree with it. The point is to try to stop the mental battle about how you feel things should have gone in favour of simply accepting the reality of what actually happened.

That is very good, Snorbs. Thank you. That is one of the reasons I stay on this message board. I need to let go of this and move forward.

You need to go out,just for you
Is there anyone trustworthy you can leave your daughter with,from time to time
How old is your daughter

would it help to talk in more detail about what happened 3 weeks ago

If he's an alcohol abuser, you can't forgive him because he can't sincerely repent for what he has done. The 'addiction is a disease' thing is true as far as it goes - it isn't intended to mean you have to put up and shut up.

Three weeks of alcohol counselling is nothing, it's barely scratching the surface of what he will need to do, which is probably a long term commitment to being alcohol free. My GP told me to give up for a year; it's a clever time period because 3 months is too short (most functioning alcoholics could stay sober for 3 months knowing they could resume drinking again at the end of it) and 'forever' is so daunting no addict could face it. After a year I can see the addiction will never let go, I just have to keep it outside my body by not letting it in.

A couple of recent threads that might help you are here and here.

You cannot police your partner. That is not a relationship. The mantra is:
You didn't cause it
You can't control it
You can't cure it

You need to do what is the right thing for you. You absolutely do need to have time on your own without dd and you need to seek that out - if for no other reason than to give your mind to process what's happened over the last few weeks.

You can sort of equate having an affair with alcoholism - just the mistress in your H's case is alcohol, not another woman.

But, as others have said, you have to focus exclusively on the safety of your child. If your H was found drunk in charge of your child only 3 weeks ago, then that is in no way a long enough period for him to say conclusively that he has changed, broken the habit or anything.

I'd be looking for a minimum of 6m clean before even starting to trust him again, tbh; and that's a minimum.

It is not your responsibility to forgive and forget this behaviour - it is his to deal with it. Your responsibility in this situation, IMO, begins and ends with your DD's (and your own) safety.

You can blame him for what he did in the past,but for the present,iand this might also include the incident 3 weeks ago,if he is not able to control the drinking,then there isnt anything to forgive.
Easy to write,not easy to do in practice.
It is very understandable to be angry about what happened 3 weeks ago.

Another thing: he's blown your trust. That you don't trust him is nothing to be apologetic about. He chose to do something selfish and dangerous and it is entirely appropriate that you no longer trust him. You are not bring unreasonable.

So do try to let go of the resentment as that is mainly hurting yourself. There's an old saying "holding onto resentment is like swallowing poison and hoping someone else drops dead".

But don't forget that, right now, you don't trust him and for good reason. It takes a long time to regain trust after something like this. Fundamentally I still don't trust my ex and I make no apologies for that.

Let me be clear again that he was off drink for 3 years following a long stay in hospital for heart failure caused by alcohol. He did all the counseling then. group and individual. For a year or so. Never lapsed but battled with trying to stop smoking. Still never won that battle.

I blame myself for going away too much. My family live far away and DH hates traveling anyway. We have limited money and a new cat so he doesn't come with us. The drinking only started again when FIL passed away in September. And his drinking was only when I was out of town (WITH DD) until THAT night 3 weeks ago. I do believe that because there was no reason not to until then.

I'm meant to go to a sort of work-related event tomorrow evening. I might be able to take DD with me, otherwise it's paying babysitters. I have exhausted favours from friends plus those friends are away for half term.

Thank you all for replying. I sort of dread looking at this website because there is some good advice but I feel like on a lot of posts - not just ones I've written - there is a lot of harsh judgement going on. I'm not sure if this ability to share problems with strangers is a good thing or not.

I blame myself for going away too much.

Did you hold him down and pour booze down his throat? No, of course you didn't.

He chose to get the alcohol, he chose to open the bottle, he chose to drink it. And he did all that in the full knowledge that his previous drinking caused heart failure. Not just a bit of the shakes and stinking hangovers, but something serious enough it could easily have killed him. Yet he still chose to drink again.

If you going away a lot was a problem then he could've said so. If he was lonely he could have gone to see a friend. If he was struggling with not drinking he could've gone to an AA meeting.

You can't sit with him all day every day to ensure he doesn't pick up a drink. Well you could but you'd be screwing up your life, your daughter's life and his life in the process.

He's a grown-up. He's responsible for his own choices, as you are for yours. One of those responsibilities is to decide what kind of person you wish to share your life with.

He was lonely. So he befriended the junkie next door. Or ex-junkie but drinker-of-strong lager as many ex-junkies are.

I'm tired. I want a normal life. I guess that won't happen any time soon.

It's really not easy to take a child away from a parent. Especially as in this case it would mean not seeing him at all. Not taking turns like all the single parents I know. Yes, the easy part is that I would know exactly what's happening all the time because it would be just me and her.