Ex being scary with children

[helpmeprotectmykids]

I am looking for some advice about my children's relationship with their father.

We separated 3 yrs ago as I could no longer cope with his anger (shouting and swearing over trivial things, smashing things, being v rough and angry with children, one only a baby)

First 18 months were v strained but since then he seems to have calmed down. Children visit him twice a week. They are 4 & 9.

One night a week he collects dd and her friend from their club, drops friend home and dd stays with him.

Yesterday friend's mother popped into see me to say that during car journey home from club, ex had shouted v loudly at dd to the point her own dd had become v frightened and upset. She wanted to let me know and hoped my own dd was ok. Her dd couldn't go to sleep because she was so upset about it.

I asked dc about it and they both looked v sad and said, "Dad gets very angry sometimes." Later dd told me more about it, she was very tearful and said she feels to blame for making everything go wrong when she's at her father's.

I texted ex to ask what happened and he texted back that "DD was v naughty and he shouted, the friend cried, he said sorry and took friend home and explained to her parents".

I texted back that dd feels quite devastated by her friend being so upset and that pick up arrangements may have to change. He offered to phone the mother.

I also said that dd feels responsible for his angry outbursts and that was terrible for her self esteem. He texted back to say it's not her fault but she is very naughty.

At my house the children have little squabbles but there is rarely a big drama. The atmosphere is relaxed and the children often play happily and help each other out. I put a lot of emphasis on kindness, acknowledging the children when they help out and for little acts of generosity.

Yet it seems that when they are with their father, their relationship is fraught with much squabbling and both feeling picked on by each other.

At this point ex is saying he'd like to talk with dd and me. In a sense he is saying the right things, but I feel deeply concerned. Historically he has said all right things in counselling and then carried on being v abusive.

I wonder whether it's time for dc to stop visiting him but am aware that this may add to dd's feelings of blame. I would also have to reduce my working hours and therefore take a drop in income which I find very worrying as already struggling.

The dc do have some happy times with him, but I am unsure whether this is enough to balance out his abusive outbursts.

I am going to apply for an appt with a family relationships help type place but in the meantime, would appreciate advice from others who have been through this.

Thank you so much

Oh, meant to add, I grew up with very screamy, abusive parent and I understand how damaging it is.

if there is no court ordered contact you can simply tell ex that given what happened and dd being upset, you are cutting contact for a week. see if he calms down apologises or continues to blame dd?

if there is a court order, then you could say it is reasonable excuse as dd is v upset (and you know his form... has there been something to trigger outbursts more than ususal?)

you have to make a stand here.
first ask dd friend's parent if they would be happy for their child to go in car with your ex again.

say that it is wholly understandable for them to say no more. in fact it would be helpful to you if she states clearly that she not prepared to send her dd with yours and your ex any more.

have your friend write down in email to you factually stating the reasons why.

(so it is recorded. )

keep your ex's text saying yes he shouted. you might get from talking to dd that this is not the first time....

i woul make other arrangements for next week.

tell ex you ahppy to talk about it with the family relationships help type place but hat you feel dd needs a break, and he needs a break to calm down.

he prob wont take it well - just be calm and matter of fact.

ps i know where you comin from - similarly angry ex - he can flip - it is difficult but you need to listen to what dc are saying - sadly it sounds as tho your ex has not changed at all.....

Thanks for your reply

No court involvement in any of this. We have bumbled along and, I felt, made huge progress.

It isn't the first time, I know he has a terrible temper and the children have at times told me sad stories. But this is the first time it has involved a friend.

DD says sometimes she wants to phone me and ask to come home but is scared of "getting Dad into trouble with you".

If the friend was my child, no way would she be going in the car again with him. So why do I facilitate my own dc having to endure this sort of crap?

I'm not sold on the talk he proposes as he just doesn't get the fact he has a terrible attitude to dd in blaming her for pretty much being a child.

When he lived with us he would rant and rave, and say she was "out of control" and needed to "be dealt with".

This is a model child, a quiet, sweet-natured and funny little girl. Her teachers consistently feed back how impressed they are with her beautiful nature and mature behaviour. And as a mother I feel I have been blessed with some sort of angel, she truly is a joy to have around.

How it goes so pear-shaped with her dad I cannot understand.

well it isnt her it is him :(

and you have tried - but he isnt stepping up to the plate.

shorter contact , no more overnights, no picking up friends, supervised?

It goes pear shaped with her dad because her DAD IS PEAR-SHAPED!

Stop access NOW.

ALL OF IT. Your child is telling you that sometimes she wants to be rescued from him, but is scared to ask in case it causes more trouble.

Get someone ELSE to collect her from the club if you can't. ANYTHING but this.

Heck if you live near me I'LL go collect her and look after her until you are free!

the reason he is doing this is because he is a vile bully. the older he gets the more he will scream at her, like he screamed at you. He doesn't even care who sees it now, the cat is out of the bag, your mum friend knows about it.

If need be state that due to last week, your friend has made alternative arrangements, so as NOT to have her DD scared again, and you have decided that the arrangements suit you better too.

Tell him to complete ANGER MANAGEMENT COURSE, with proof and THEN you will talk about access. Not before.

Stop contact and let him take you to court if he wants access. The way he is behaving towards your dc is incredibly damaging to them. I took a client to a solicitor today, her exH behaves in a similar manner to yours. She was told in no uncertain terms not to allow further contact because it is emotionally abusive.

TheHappyHissy Thank you for your offer

Since I last posted, ex has phoned the other mother to apologise again and to check whether the pick up arrangement should continue. She is happy for it to continue.

I did consider stopping access but my feeling is that this would be more damaging. Dd adores her dad and already feels to blame, if contact were stopped she would feel terribly burdened.

This morning I saw my gp and mentioned what had happened. He recommended continuing contact but teaching dd coping strategies, taking a phone etc. He thinks the softly softly approach is most effective and that to take a hard line will be more damaging.

I am still going to apply to the family help place for advice and see if we can get some independent help with the father-daughter relationship.

Your GP's still buying into the idea that the man is The Man and therefore should be placated and indulged. Ignore the GP's advice, prioritise yourself and your DD. Your XP is an inadequate little shit who gets a hardon from bullying children and therefore needs putting firmly in his place. Stop all contact, tell your DD's friend's mum that if she has any crap from XP it's fine to involve the police, tell XP that contact is suspended because he's been behaving like a dick and he needs to demonstrate clearly and consistently that he can behave like a civilised person before contact resumes.
And tell your DD that her dad has behaved so badly she doesn't need to see him for a while, and that sometimes dads need to learn how to behave properly and it is not DC's fault.

But can you not see that the only way to stop her feeling to blame is to take her away and tell her, DD, it is absolutely not your fault, Dad is the one who is wrong, because of XYZ (concrete examples of inappropriate episodes of behaviour from him). Tell her nobody should ever make her feel like this because she is a lovely, kind, good girl and also because NOBODY has the right to behave like this towards ANYBODY. Reassure her that it was the right thing to do to tell you, and that yes, you acknowledge that Dad isn't like this all the time and he can be fun, but that it isn't good enough and until he can be nice without being nasty, he isn't allowed to play at all.

What kind of coping strategies is this GP thinking of? Ignoring the abuse? (Hard, for a child, and misses the point which is that the underlying effects are the most damaging, and of course that if he doesn't get the reaction he expects, he may well try harder.) Trying to be exactly how he likes in order to avoid it? (Because what does THAT teach her about how to deal with bullies, never mind what it will do to her own sense of self?)

My friend's son was bitten by another child at a playgroup recently and she tried to take him out of the room to comfort him but was held up by the leader of the group who asked her not to make a big deal out of it in case it upset her DS more. She said she came over all Mother Bear and said, very slowly and firmly "Let me please leave with my son." She said she could see what the leader was saying, but actually, she didn't want to teach her son that he should minimise things and keep quiet when someone had hurt him. She wanted to teach him that it was okay, actually, to just run away, and find someone who cared for him, to help make it better.

Sorry for the slight tangent - but actually this made me realise something and I think my friend is right. There is massive social pressure to smooth over relationships, ignore any bad patches and try to work them out, when sometimes it is okay, better in fact, to just run away.

Stop all contact, tell your DD's friend's mum that if she has any crap from XP it's fine to involve the police, tell XP that contact is suspended because he's been behaving like a dick and he needs to demonstrate clearly and consistently that he can behave like a civilised person before contact resumes.

How can he prove this?
BertieBotts
What kind of coping strategies is this GP thinking of? Ignoring the abuse? (Hard, for a child, and misses the point which is that the underlying effects are the most damaging, and of course that if he doesn't get the reaction he expects, he may well try harder.) Trying to be exactly how he likes in order to avoid it?*

No he didn't suggest ignoring it, he suggested teaching her a way of coping whether it was to phone me to come home or to encourage her to say, "Dad I really don't like it when you shout" and also to keep talking to me about anything she wants to.

I felt it was sensible advice.

I know that ex's behaviour is considered emotional abuse, I know it is illegal (here) and I know I could get court orders etc. I would just like to try a lower key management technique and want the best for the dc which I truly believe includes some contact with their dad. I guess I am after a compromise which allows some contact but reduces her risk of harm.

(Because what does THAT teach her about how to deal with bullies, never mind what it will do to her own sense of self?)
I think she manages bullying well, anytime there has been a hint of it at school she has navigated it beautifully. Her EQ is a lot higher than her father's.

You can't manage abuse.

Your DD is scared to be honest with her dad.

How about teaching her that she doesn't have to tiptoe over broken glass, that she doesn't have to copy you and appease this bully.

You got out. You're putting her right back in there. Alone.

Your ex has just played a blinder, he's abused TWO children, but smoothed it over with both the mothers.

Seriously, stand up! Protect your child.

Stop contact and explain domestic abuse to her, and why you have to take a break from access for a little while.

Oh, and for the love of god, change doctors!

I would go for supervised contact only, until you feel sure that this emotional abuse has ended.

As a child I remember being desperate not to be left with my dad, but feeling guilty about it and not being able to communicate how I felt with my (lovely) mum.

I loved my dad, he could be immense fun, he wasnt a physically abusive man ....but he had aggressive, shouty outbursts that left my sister and I feeling frightened and on edge. I had a few similar situations, where friends witnessed my dad's outbursts and it was like seeing his behaviour - that sadly, we were so used to- through fresh eyes. They were sudden flashes of how bad it was, really.

Eventually, wihen we got to secondary school age, my sister and I just started to refuse to stay at his house. His behaviour got worse, not better.

If I were you, I would seriously consider supervised access only. Dont let your fear of rocking the boat override your duty toprotectyur children. My mum bitterly regrets not protecting us better from our dad.

Your little girl should not be forced into the position of trying to control the abuse against her, it isn't her responsibility. Your GP is full of shit. Why is any of this on her shoulders?

I think you need to go to supervised contact.

I can understand your fear that your dd might blame herself for contact stopping but at the end of the day you are the only person who can stick up for her and she needs to learn that it's not ok for anyone to treat her that way.

By ignoring your ex's behaviour you are saying that what he did isn't that bad and that dd and her friend over reacted.

I have shouted at my children too harshly (haven't we all) but upon reflection I've always felt that the circumstances or I was at fault. The fact that he insists that your dd is at fault is worrying unless she did something really reckless like try and jump out of a moving car or something. Children often get giddy in the company of school friends - I bet she wasn't really naughty and that she was just being a kid or mucking about because her mate was there.

your daughter is too young to be expected to "manage" an emotionally abusive father.

Yes her emotional intelligence will be very high (so will yours by the way...you had to navigate angry controlling parents too) she is used to being careful and trying not to set off the ticking bomb that is her father's temper.

Sometimes she will do this by "sacrificing" her sibling (hence more quarrelling at his house). Anything to draw the heat out of the situation.

You got out of this relationship because it was damaging to you and your DCs. You are safe, they are not.

It is only when we stand up for our children and show that domestic abuse is harming them and these men are (mostly) not "great fathers" after break up they usually just remain in the nice/nasty cycle of abuse with their children. Who now have no witnesses and no protection.

Supervised contact would be the most I would give him.

I am in a similar position myself and have given indirect contact only at present (Skype).

Don't let your DCs think that this is how the people who love them should treat them.

You could read when dad hurts mom by Lundy Bancroft which I have read and is useful but not as good as "why does he do that" or the batterer as parent which i have not read yet but have ordered from the library as I am skint financially challenged!

Please listen to the people saying to limit or stop contact for your children's sake. I understand that you feel like you navigated similar circumstances as a child but not every child reacts in the same way and your DCs could be affected more than you were.

My stepmother was verbally and emotionally abusive to me from age two and it resulted in severe depression brought on by post traumatic stress disorder and I have been on ADs for the last 10yrs after being diagnosed. The after effects of the shouting, which was "all" it was really, will be with me for the rest of my life as my brian was permenantly damaged. I was exactly the same as your daughter at the time, minimising everything when I told my mum how my weekend was, because I didn't want to upset either of my parents and I loved my dad and wanted to see him. BUT if I had managed to tell my mum what really went on and she had said I could stop staying there at the weekends and just see Dad for tea sometimes I would have been overjoyed and so relieved. I can't seem to express myself very well this morning but please take the message that your children could suffer permanent damage from this and they need your protection.

PS I understand that the stepmother dynamic may be different but I think that the effects of a father being abusive would be just as bad if not worse.

^Safely fostering father-child relationships: Except in cases where the children are terrified of the battering parent or have been abused by him directly, children tend to desire some degree of ongoing contact with their fathers. Such contact can be beneficial as long as adequate safety measures are provided for the mother and children and the abuser is not given the opportunity to cause set-backs to the children?s emotional recovery. These goals can be fostered through custody arrangements that take into full consideration the violence in the home caused by the battering parent and through the use of professionally supervised visitation, ideally based in a visitation center. Where unsupervised visitation is found to be safe, the use of relatively short visits that do not include overnight visits can reduce the batterer?s ability to damage mother-child relationship, limit his negative influence on the children?s behavior and value-systems, and ensure that the children feel safe and secure?while still allowing them to feel a continued connection to their father.^

the above is an excerpt from a paper written by Lundy Bancroft in 2002 to the courts of Justice (Family Division) in America

i think you need to cut contact down as poster above said "just see Dad for tea sometimes " .

ex nes to know its one more strike and he out... maybe your frined happy to apss as one off - but he needs to know it cannot happen again andhe is n probation

your dd needs to know that his beahaviour means contact is being cu/limited to short tea times only.

so he has shorter time with them.

and your gp is not a triained child psychologist -ask gp fo referral to someone who is properly trianed to deal with thse dynamics and can reaally help and advise.

Do you love your child more than you don't want to make a fuss?

Here is a link to a charity that helps those in DA situations.

The Hampton Trust helps those affected by domestic abuse. they run Turnaround courses to help children affected by DV.

www.hamptontrust.org.uk/what_we_do/da_services/turnaround.html

I think it was very bad advice indeed from your gp . She shouldnt need any coping strategys because she shouldnt be being exposed to it , and it makes her responsible for " managing " his behaviour . If this was a teacher or a freinds parent you wouldnt put up with it , it makes no differance that its her dad .

My mum divorced my emotionally and verbally abusive dad as like you , she couldnt cope with his abuse and anger . Ive often pondered why she chose to send me , a defenceless small child to suffer the same . Years and years later im still affected by this as i went on to marry a man similar to my dad and now the same disgusting dynamic is playing out in my own family .

She should not be experiencing abuse at this age , let alone learning how to manage it . I would veiw this as early training to accept further abuse later on in life and id stamp it out .

OK, so your DD adores her dad - quite right and proper. But a few things you have said eg 'she doesn't want to get him into trouble with me', points to this not being a very healthy relationship. I don't think cutting contact is the right way to go.

I think she should be told that her daddy shouting at her is a complete no-no, and nice daddies don't do this - and she should ring you to come and fetch her if he shouts. She should also be told that it is nothing to do with her or her behaviour - it's daddy who is totally at fault.

Ideally, you and daddy should tell her this together, and he should agree that she will not stay in his company if he has treated her with anything less than the respect that is her right.