Why can't DP just say sorry, for once, without making out like it's the end of the world!

[threeleftfeet]

When DP does something which upsets me (which doesn't happen often) and I tell him I'm upset, he takes it so badly he makes everything much worse!

So yesterday he behaved in a way which upset me when he was drunk. I told him today and instead of just saying "I'm really sorry" and giving me a hug - which was all I wanted - he gets really upset and thinks I'm saying he's a failure.

He's a lovely, intelligent man. Why's he so bad at this stuff?! He's so defensive, he'll never admit he's in the wrong. Until he does, and then he's the worst person in the world, and gets upset about it - which is no bloody use to anyone, it blows a small thing up into something much bigger.

He was so obviously in the wrong, but he tried to defend himself by saying his behaviour wasn't wrong (he knows it was), then that he'd already apologised (he had, but to the other people there last night, not to me) and then that I was just getting upset because it's my birthday (which is a fucking insult as far as I'm concerned! I'm a level-headed nearly 40 year old not a spoilt brat teenager!)

It's such bloody hard work! I know if I bring up something he's done to upset me (which as I said is rare - thankfully!) it'll go tits up, but I refuse to brush my feelings under the carpet for fear he'll take it badly!

So now he has apologised for his behaviour yesterday, but now I'm more concerned about the way he dealt with it! I'd also like to talk about why and how he ended up acting like that, in a sensible rational way - but that's pretty much impossible I think.

He's such a lovely man, it really shocks me when he behaves like this, it seems so out of character!

Why can't he just accept that sometimes we do things wrong, it's human, it's not the end of the world, just say sorry and get on with it?!

It's like he can't see any middle ground between being totally in the right and a complete failure. And it's not me making him feel like that I promise! He's come into this relationship with that baggage already.

I feel I need to talk to him about this now, but how do you say to someone "I want to talk about how you go off the deep end when I say you've upset me" without him doing it again! This is going to end up being one of those really dysfunctional arguments where both sides know the script and act it out again and again if we're not careful, isn't it?

Bugger.

And if you've managed to read all of that, thanks!

Does anyone else's DP do this too?

how do you say to someone "I want to talk about how you go off the deep end when I say you've upset me"

You say exactly that! How he reacts is up to him but you do need to address this. He does not consider your feelings as important as his and by not insisting that he explain himself, you are allowing him to continue thinking this way.

You say you are not going to let your feelings be swept under the carpet - good for you!

Start by telling him you want a discussion. Agree the ground rules, no shouting, swearing, blaming or storming off. Just talk and listen. He will try to twist your words to get his own way but you just need to calmly repeat yourself.

For example, if he says, you're saying it's all my fault, I'm a failure (passive aggressive btw), you say, no I am saying I want you to acknowledge my feelings (or whatever).

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Hi 3LF My H would never say sorry as he would never entertain the possibility he was in the wrong. To admit that would dent his view of himself. So I was the one to blame.

That is why he is an ExH

Thanks for the reply Fairenuff. I don't think in reality he considers his feelings to be more important than mine, but that's the way it comes across when he acts like that - it makes my being upset more about his feelings of failure than what I was upset about in the first place! Which is totally dysfunctional!

I think he has a real problem with admitting he's in the wrong, in any way. He finds it really difficult. But that's just silly IMO!!

Like I said it's so out of character! I mean it is part of his character, obviously, but I find it hard to square it with the rest of him, as he's usually such a loving, thoughtful, intelligent person. But he has a real problem with this!

I just don't get it!

I do want to discuss this with him, but we need time on our own to do it, which is rare at the moment.

LemonDrizzled he will admit is eventually! But he goes overboard when he does! He gets miserable about being a failure. Which is ridiculous IMO.

He's certainly not going to be ab ex over this! I love him deeply. We very rarely argue, but I find it very upsetting when we do. I'm not going to go into all his wonderful points (of which there are many!) as this is a thread for me to vent how annoyed I am with him!

But he's human, and makes mistakes as we all do. getting him to understand that that's OK it the difficult bit!

Please take this to Relate/other counselling.

Why? Because

1. you are in a safe place with a third party who stays calm, and he will feel safe too.
2. the counsellor will intervene when he starts kicking off
3. the counsellor keeps things on track
4. he will have to face what you are saying.

Can I repeat 4. again? He will HAVE TO FACE what you are saying. In other words, he has to listen to you and take you seriously. Men don't like counselling because of this!!

When he reacts like this, he is controlling your response with his overreaction and denial. If he can make the experience so bad, he can train you never to say anything he doesn't like to hear. I don't know how long you have been together, but after a while you get to say nothing because it isn't worth it - and he gets his way.

I am WARNING you this is a problem and you need help.

Sounds like you just need to find the time to have a heart to heart. He is reacting like this because that is what he has always done. It is his habit, bourne out of years of self-preservation. This is what children do.

As we grow older we learn to take responsibility for our actions, to put our hands up and say, yes, I was wrong, I'm sorry. Somehow, he needs to understand this. The more he says it, the easier it will get.

It's not (yet) at the point that I want to insist on counselling to help sort it out. Gonna have a go at doing it just us.

What we have on our side is that he is such a lovely person - really big hearted and a good person. I'm absolutely sure he will want to try to address it if I can get him to understand it!

"When he reacts like this, he is controlling your response with his overreaction and denial. If he can make the experience so bad, he can train you never to say anything he doesn't like to hear. I don't know how long you have been together, but after a while you get to say nothing because it isn't worth it - and he gets his way."

Yes I am aware of these dynamics and I absolutely refuse to end up in that position! I have tried to explain this to him once before and he didn't get it at all. I will have to try again!

Like Lemondrizzle, mine is ex too.

Do try counselling. However, be aware that he may well use counselling to put all the blame on you and turn it around.
If that happens, think very carefully whether you want to stay with him or not.

"He is reacting like this because that is what he has always done. It is his habit, bourne out of years of self-preservation."

I think so. It runs deep.

Your OP was succinct and well-expressed. I think you should print it out, hand him a copy, give him a hug and leave him to read it. Then make some time to have a chat. Making that time is so important.

He's not a controlling bastard, honest! This is the only thing I have to complain about! I'm very rarely upset with him, he's lovely.

Thanks for the concern, as there are some people putting up with some awful relationships out there, but thankfully I'm really not one of them. My DP is definitely one of the good guys! I have been out with controlling bastards in the past and I know how to recognise one! He's absolutely not.

"be aware that he may well use counselling to put all the blame on you and turn it around. " he wouldn't do that.

This is very common, often in people who set high standards for themselves and can't admit they've fallen beneath them.

However - it does suggest that at moments of stress he is only concerned about his emotions, not anyone else's. He can't really engage with your hurt feelings but instead turns it back to be about him - 'oh poor me, I'm such a failure, please make me feel better again'.

"Making that time is so important."

I think that's a major part of the problem. On the rare occasions we do get time together I don't want to ruin it by dredging something up that happened weeks or even months ago!

But I am going to have find time for this one. He's my best friend, I just feel like knocking his head together with - himself (that's didn't work as an analogy did it?!) as he's being so dense about this!

"This is very common, often in people who set high standards for themselves and can't admit they've fallen beneath them."

He does have high standards for himself, yes.

"However - it does suggest that at moments of stress he is only concerned about his emotions, not anyone else's. He can't really engage with your hurt feelings but instead turns it back to be about him"

Yes that's exactly what happens. Stupid isn't it, as I know he cares deeply for me, that's obvious when we're not arguing. But he's so instantly defensive he really can't seem to see the woods for the trees and it does become all about him.

I'd also like to talk about why and how he ended up acting like that, in a sensible rational way - but that's pretty much impossible I think

If you cannot talk to each other to resolve your differences, you need to look at the way you communicate.

Why do you not want to consider counselling yet? Do you think that should be a last resort? Or do you think he will not go? Counselling is a good thing, not an admission of failure. You can learn how to communicate and have a happier relationship. It might do you both the world of good.

Why not counselling?

Can't afford it for a start.
Have absolutely no time for it.

If we had time for counselling I'd rather spend it walking up a nice hill having a chat - or in a quiet pub having a chat - things we rarely get a chance to do. I'd like to have a go at actually talking to each other before paying someone to get us to talk to each other! We're both pretty smart I'd like to think we could at least have a go at sorting it out ourselves.

I guess I do see it as a bit of a last resort (and I know I probably shouldn't!)

^Can't afford it for a start.
Have absolutely no time for it^

Maybe you need to prioritise your time if you really want to change things. I'm not sure that you are ready to face this yet, I personally think you are just mulling over your options at this stage. That's fine, you take all the time you need.

The idea of a lovely stroll, hand in hand, an intimate little chat - that ain't gonna happen is it? If you could talk to him about this, you would have done so already. That is a lovely romantic picture that can come after you both learn to respect your feelings and opinions as much as his.

I am doing a degree. It's a very technical course and a huge commitment on top of being a mum and I have no time. I should be studying now, not mumsnetting! (It is my birthday and I am studying. That's how little time I have). But it'll be over very soon.

I would say there's a very good chance of is going to the pub together at some point after that. And a walk on the lovely hills I can see from my window isn't totally out of the question either!

But I take your point it's not about the setting.

You need the book "Why Women Talk and Men Walk.How to improve Your Relationship Without Discussing It."Your DH sounds like a classic example.

Yes, mine does similar. Not the same as he doesn't do the 'total failure' thing you describe, though does plunge into self-pity easily. He acknowledges he has great difficulty accepting any criticism, however reasonable or justified. He responds to my being upset with / by him as criticism. He also assumes that if I am upset, it must be because of him, so doesn't ask about it. So, if I'm upset about anything, rather than showing any interest in how I feel, in understanding why I feel that way, or in comforting me, he slinks off and shuns me for the whole day or longer, or if I raise the issue, gets massively defensive (and often quite offensive as a form of defense). It is always up to me to approach him and restore a normal equilibrium.

So, when I most need support I am abandoned, alone and if I'm upset about anything he's done, however small or briefly, mentioning it, even just so the same can be avoided in future, causes him to shun me, effectively punishing me for having been upset by him and exacerbating the problem by annoying me afresh and leaving me disinclined to spend time with him.

Part of DP's basic problem is that he sees me as an authority figure, so perceives he is being 'told off', rather than seeing himself as an adult and my equal, responsible for his own actions and for doing his bit to maintain our relationship. He is also quite self-pitying and often prefers to sulk than to stand up for himself and articulate what he wants. He assumes people know and are against him, rather than considering that they may have different perceptions or priorities.

There's some similarity to your DP there, in the resistance to discussing things, for fear that there might turn out to be more than one way of seeing them and that his view, which he's tied to his emotions, might be challenged, or he may be unable to explain it well and feel silly. DP is not especially articulate or able to think on his feet, so panics in an argument, becoming inward-looking, defensive, repetitive and stubborn. In a calm discussion he is able to say 'I hadn't thought of that' and consider my point of view but as soon as there is any tension he can only defend a fixed position.

I've discussed these things with DP many times, occasionally using phrases like 'would you rather be right, or have friends'? (really, 'believe yourself to be right') and pointing out that I am not attracted to children, so treating me as an authority figure (mother) will not further our relationship. He is becoming able to say sorry, for how he has made me feel, recognising that this is different from saying that everything he said or thought was fundamentally wrong (and avoiding the, very patronising, 'well I'm sorry you feel that way but.. i.e. I think you are wrong).

Writing things down, to explain how I felt, how his behaviour affects me and how I perceive his behaviour, has helped a lot. This meant he could take in what I was saying in his own time, calmly and have time to think it through before responding. At one point I set this out at some length and he was quite surprised by the range of issues I identified, how consistent and pervasive the effects were but also by the depth of the effects - and genuinely shocked and sorry about those.

People in arguments are too busy thinking about their next line to reflect on what they've heard and people like my DP will just go along with what they can get away with, rather than reflecting very much on what my pov might be over all.

well done lottiegb for coming up with strategies to help the situation.
The book I refered to[and some posters may well arrive soon to rubbish it],says that men feel guilt andshame when women want to talk about issues.Talk makes women feel better, but makes some men feel worse.

The trouble with people who can't apologise is that they have such a huuuuuge fear of ever being caught "in the wrong" that it is nearly impossible to get them to examine their behaviour in order to correct it, or to get them to consider/acknowledge the harm they are doing others.

"Being wrong" is like psychological death to them, so they will do all sorts of crazy stuff in order to avoid acknowledging wrong-doing. Because when they do, they feel like utter shit - hence your description of your H's overblown self-castigation when he does acknowledge wrong-doing.

It's all very self-centred: note that even when he admits he's wrong, it's still all about him and his feelings, rather than yours. (and obviously when he's refusing to admit he's wrong, he is refusing to consider your feelings, which equates to lack of empathy.)

Would he consider therapy for himself? He needs to get to the root of why he feels so shit about himself, and he needs helps objectively taking stock of what he does to avoid ever feeling in the wrong, even when he is.

The key here I that he was able to apologise to other people but not the OP.

Why is that?

DP does this. He has OCD too, and this often results in him explaining his actions over and over and over again. No advice, but I do know how you feel, and it's hugely frustrating.