Why can't DP just say sorry, for once, without making out like it's the end of the world!

[threeleftfeet]

When DP does something which upsets me (which doesn't happen often) and I tell him I'm upset, he takes it so badly he makes everything much worse!

So yesterday he behaved in a way which upset me when he was drunk. I told him today and instead of just saying "I'm really sorry" and giving me a hug - which was all I wanted - he gets really upset and thinks I'm saying he's a failure.

He's a lovely, intelligent man. Why's he so bad at this stuff?! He's so defensive, he'll never admit he's in the wrong. Until he does, and then he's the worst person in the world, and gets upset about it - which is no bloody use to anyone, it blows a small thing up into something much bigger.

He was so obviously in the wrong, but he tried to defend himself by saying his behaviour wasn't wrong (he knows it was), then that he'd already apologised (he had, but to the other people there last night, not to me) and then that I was just getting upset because it's my birthday (which is a fucking insult as far as I'm concerned! I'm a level-headed nearly 40 year old not a spoilt brat teenager!)

It's such bloody hard work! I know if I bring up something he's done to upset me (which as I said is rare - thankfully!) it'll go tits up, but I refuse to brush my feelings under the carpet for fear he'll take it badly!

So now he has apologised for his behaviour yesterday, but now I'm more concerned about the way he dealt with it! I'd also like to talk about why and how he ended up acting like that, in a sensible rational way - but that's pretty much impossible I think.

He's such a lovely man, it really shocks me when he behaves like this, it seems so out of character!

Why can't he just accept that sometimes we do things wrong, it's human, it's not the end of the world, just say sorry and get on with it?!

It's like he can't see any middle ground between being totally in the right and a complete failure. And it's not me making him feel like that I promise! He's come into this relationship with that baggage already.

I feel I need to talk to him about this now, but how do you say to someone "I want to talk about how you go off the deep end when I say you've upset me" without him doing it again! This is going to end up being one of those really dysfunctional arguments where both sides know the script and act it out again and again if we're not careful, isn't it?

Bugger.

And if you've managed to read all of that, thanks!

Sorry OP, I didn't mean that you couldn't have a lovely walk together, just that it would be unlikely that you could discuss this issue with him at the same time.

Why did he apologise without any problem to the others, btw? That's a good point. Is it just you that he can't apologise to?

When he starts going off about being a failure, do you tell him he's not and then comfort him? Does it stop being about what he's done that upsets you but now about his feelings? What he's doing is by going off at the deep end is ensuring he doesn't have to deal with what he's done because you comfort him and say it's ok.

We had a bit of a chat and it went well. DP agrees he feels shit when he's in the wrong and avoids it in a way which is dysfunctional.

He talked about some thing which I'm not going to post here as it's his personal stuff, but suffice to say he opened up and talked about some stuff he finds hard, which is very unusual for him.

Fairenuff no worries I knew what you meant :)

HotDAMNlifeisgood yes I think he would consider it, and it could be a good thing.

I think it was easier for him to apologise to the guy last night than me because it was more clear cut and there was less emotion involved.

DP took offense at something the guy said and snapped at him. DP was drunk and had had an awful day, and was massively overreacting. The guy didn't deserve the harshness of DP's tone,

It was easier for him to apologise to the guy as it was much more simple, and no emotional upset involved. it was clear that DP was out of line, he apologised, it was over.

But as far as what he did to me - well he didn't do anything directly to me. It wasn't just how he spoke to the guy. He was drunk and in a foul mood and I was really taken aback, I've not seen him like that before. None of it was directed at me, but I was shocked at the way he was, it was embarrassing as we were in company. He says he thought he had apologised to me. (I think maybe because he'd agreed he'd been out of line to the guy he thinks that was an apology? Whereas I was upset about the whole night IYSWIM).

Also there's no emotional involvement with the guy. What he finds it a hard to deal with is that he's upset someone close to him. It's when he accepts that that he feels like a failure I think.

DontmindifIdo no I don't comfort him then.

Today I left the room, I found it really upsetting that he was turning it into something about himself and so removed myself from the situation.

He came and found me after a while. We argued again and then he left me to get on with my work.

Anyway thanks for your advice and help everyone, I find it really helps to talk it through with you wide mumsnetters!

DP and have I definitely ended the day in a much better place than we started it :)

Aarg! Wise not wide!!

One day I'll learn to type!

Glad to hear it :)

Oh my god, are you me?? Seriously this happened to me last night. I'm waiting to see if DP manages the hug and the apology this morning.

It actually over if he doesn't. I've had enough.

Just read the whole thread , glad your chat went well.

Fingers crossed for you both x

My DH does this too. The word "sorry" hasn't left his lips during our 12 year relationship- even I'd he does something blatantly apology worthy like treading on my toe!

As we have a fundamentally happy relationship I ignore the small stuff like toe treading (while secretly promising myself to make sure my sons don't have such shocking manners!) and if he has upset me more fundamentally (which is very rare, perhaps once every couple if years) I tell him why I'm upset but I don't demand an apology which has in the past escalated the situation.

With DH it seems he has an inability to see that you should still apologise for unintended consequences. So if he deliberately set out to hurt or upset someone (which I have never known him to!) then he would have no problem apologising for that. However if he did something without thinking it through which led to upset, because he didn't intend that as a consequence, then he can't seem to see how he could be in the wrong. I hear "I didn't mean to" in the space where an apology should go. It is quite annoying!

Glad you're feeling better OP.

My DH is a lovely man but is also rubbish at apologising. We went on a marriage course (cheaper than counselling!!) a couple of years ago, and this was one of the issues we discussed. It was good to talk about it in a calm environment rather than mid-argument which is when it usually comes up! (We rarely argue.)

His mum is also rubbish at admitting she is wrong so I think he was not 'set a good example'. Also, he views an apology as taking full, entire reponsibility for the situation, whereas I think he should apologise if he does something wrong even if there was some slight build-up or justification for it. He knows my feelings about it and he has got a bit better over the years. I have accepted he's never going to be great at it though!

AwaketoLate I'm sorry to hear it's got to that point with you. I hope it works out OK today.

I'm glad you both worked it out. :-)

Just reflecting on what has been said on the thread, there is a definitive grey area where apologies are concerned.
One, recognising that and how the other person was affected (threeleftfeet), two, when doing something unintentional (I'd think that was easier, but a "I didn't mean to" could be close enough), three, after doing something intentionally (an apology might work a first, even second time, but not with repeats).

I went through a phase of demanding an apology from OH, but then recognised it was hard for him and didn't bother too much and just got on with things.
TBH, not sure what's best. Demanding an apology created drama, yes. Not demanding it seems to have created the impression that all was well and that I did put out with his behaviour.
I'm not sure it's only good manners apologising to someone for stepping on their toes. It shows you care about that person.
For those whose OH's don't, will they apologise to other people?

My DH has got better with this over the years.He has had to somewhat work at it.
Id say, my DH was the same to other people, as to me tbh.

I agree that not apologising for toe treading is rude- in my mind I equate it to other bad manners like eating with your mouth open... I think DH really doesn't see it like that. He didn't mean to and he sees us both as being equally responsible for not looking where we were going (or whatever led to foot on toe) so no apology needed.

I haven't ever heard him apologise to anyone else either other than the kids.

"I have tried to explain this to him once before and he didn't get it at all. I will have to try again!"

Which is why you must always keep counselling to the forefront of your mind. 3, it is so much BETTER to go to counselling at the begininning when the problem is small and the love and trust and hope is huge. Really.

I missed an opportunity in 2004 where we really should have gone to counselling (big red flag which I ignored). Now we have got to the catastrophe bit where hurt and mistrust are overpowering, and even the best counsellor in the world can't take that away.

I tell you this because I look back at the patterns that got us to catastrophe (and the fact that we love eachother is more or less irrelevant) - and his refusal to own anything that makes him feel bad is the number one indicator of why we couldn't resolve stuff. HotDamn puts it so well.

So go when its little. Really. He doesn't get it? That's because it is not in his skills set, not because he is bad or selfish. And poor emotional skills ... well it ends up bad. This is a skill he needs to learn, sooner rather than later.

I would be telling you about my lovely man 10 years ago. It isn't about that, and it isn't about love.

Not apologising for toe-treading is just not British! Over-apologising in everyday social situations - so both treader and treadee, bumper and bumpee apologising automatically - is how we oil the wheels of social interaction, like knowing how to queue.

That's different from meaningful apologies within relationships but there is a principle and ingrained habit, of using sorry to move things forward happily and avoid dwelling on nonsense that most people with any manners recognise. Poor manners is one of my bugbears with DP. He's the only Bf / DP I've ever felt embarrassed by, due to his willingness to be rude to people. I see this as a mismatch in values which is a fundamental relationship issue. I also see it as very self-defeating and quite dim - does being I'll-mannered ever persuade people to give you what you want? No. Does being pleasant and considerate? Yes.

The idea of only apologising for intentional harm is crazy - malice is on another level altogether! Being careless and thoughtless is a part of the problem here, leading to unintended but entirely predictable consequences.

I think the basic issue is, do they are how you feel, or are they only concerned about 'being right' and their feelings? If they do are then I think the solution lies in separating apologising for the consequence from considering the action and how it could be altered so the avoid the same outcome.

Care not are

My DH not liking saying the word sorry has been down to male pride, pure and simple.
We worked on it together.When we had kids,he knew he needed to get his act together and started to say the actual word sorry to them, and we moved on from there.
I found that by just getting him to say the word, without going into the whys and wherefores,was the starting point.

It's not only men. My mum doesn't say it ever. Because she is always right, of course.

lottiegb, you are so right about how being ill-mannered gets you nothing. It was quite a big difference with ex and me, as I often get better treatment by being nice to people in shops and public service.
And he got kicked out for being ill-mannered violent to try and get what he wanted.

RunWorkCook are you saying that if your dh trod on my toes he wouldn't say sorry? That is more than rude, that's dysfunctional!

Or is it just you he won't apologise to?

I have to admit I am surprised at how many people are saying their dh behaves in such an entitled way, and you let them! Why?

Fairenuff I suppose he would, but to be honest it not a situation that's ever arisen so I can't be certain. He does seem to generally watch where he's going more than I do so doesn't go around leaving crushed toes in his wake! We had been together about 5 years before I even noticed he never said sorry (in my earshot anyway- i assume he isn't too socially incompetent at work).

It's really not a big issue in my life. Mainly because he is kind and considerate and we have a good relationship, so the situations which might merit an apology are rare. I can see why it's a much bigger deal if there is a lot of apologies required.

Incidentally DH does say sorry to the kids If he bashes into them when more often than not they're the ones at fault take after their mother