How can you tell if an emotional abuser is definitely changing?

[poppyandthepoppop]

I posted about my situation on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1462723-Is-there-any-way-to-save-this-emotionally-abusive-relationship two weeks ago.
Dh has been emotionally abusive to me for many years, but it has only got really bad over the last three. Two weeks ago I realised what had been going on, and confronted dh about it. Initially, he was unable to accept it, and tried to manipulate his way out of the problem but I held firm and after a couple of days he admitted to his failings. He has tried to get on a Respect course but unfortunately there's a waiting list so in the meantime he has started a self directed programme.
On my other thread most people are cynical about the chances of permanent change. But, I feel i would be a fool to not even let him try.
He has made a very good start I feel and is reading Beverly Engels and working through the exercises. I have read this too and I'm now on 'Who's pulling your strings? How to stop the cycle of manipulation' (braiker). I haven't spotted any abusive behaviour from him since but of course, i know it cannot be this easy!
My questions are, how do I make sure I don't unknowingly fall for any of the old tricks again? How do I determine if lasting change is possible? Has anyone on here ever had their dh successfully reform?

You have to mean it when you say it's over if he does ANYTHING remotely abusive or controlling.

Then follow up by dumping him from a great height if he does.

I would love to tell you that yes, he has changed and has seen the error of his ways, but the chances of that, particularly after just a couple of weeks are slim to none, sadly.

It's more likely that he is just testing the water and that he will start to revert back to how he was. The only trouble with this strategy is that if you're not careful it can give him more ammo to manipulate you with.

Look at his behaviour, his attitudes. Unless he does significant work on those, (and while you stay with him he hasn't much motivation to do so) nothing will change.

you will know if he has changed by whether he is still breathing or not

All sounds like a lot of hard work to me spending your life monitoring an abusive twunt, especially with DCs to look after.

In my extensive experience with my H (deceased), waste of time hoping for anything other than more crap in the long term.

Life is short; as demonstrated by my H (deceased)

@ bejeezus, the irony in your post for me is outstanding

I agree. These guys can be very good at turning on the charm when it is necessary. As soon as you relax/drop your guard then they are back to their old tricks. I dunno. I'm skeptical. Never went through any official programmes of change...but plenty of soul-searching/re-defining relationship/promises leading to fantastic short term change...then decline again. Sorry. I'm quite optimistic in general...but need to be convinced on this particular area! Good luck.

"tried to manipulate his way out of the problem "

The trouble is that people who use emotional bullying are, by definition, very persuasive and convincing. If they were not, they wouldn't be tolerated at all. So my fear would be that admitting to faults, baring his soul, agreeing to go on courses etc., is just another sort of manipulation... just a bit more full-on than the one he normally employs. "How can you reject me when I've gone to such great lengths to prove to you I've changed? I can't make one little mistake? You are so unreasonable."

I therefore agree with inadeeptrance... given him the chance if you really feel you should but be completely on your guard for when Mr Hyde peeps back through. Two weeks isn't long and old habits die hard. At that point, game over.

Isn't that fact that our relationship will be over if he doesn't reform a good motivator? He knows himself that he would be losing everything if we split; his wife, his children, his home, his job (we work together in our own business), maybe even his friends.
I know I am open to manipulation and have been manipulated by other people in my life before I met dh and thats why I am reading the Braiker book. However, once I have realised what has been going on (usually the manipulator has gone one step too far and the nature of the relationship has become clear to me) I have found it quite easy to disengage from their clutches, in the case of a past boyfriend I just ended the relationship but with friends I have just stepped back from them and not allowed the manipulation to continue.
I do wonder if I need more help to make sure I am impervious to this sort of thing in the future. I will go to the partner element of the respect course, but like I say, we are on a waiting list. In the meantime maybe counselling from relate? Maybe hypnotherapy (two friends have recently recommended this to me)?

"Isn't that fact that our relationship will be over if he doesn't reform a good motivator?"

Not necessarily because manipulators are essentially selfish people. If they aren't getting their own way they would often rather switch off and be in control elsewhere than persevere with a situation that is too much like hard work. Having their behaviour challenged and being expected to modify it is just a source of resentment.

Anyone with a good heart and who wants to see the best in others is a potential target for this so don't think you necessarily have a problem. The problem is entirely with those that would exploit your good nature.

yeah sirsugar spooky Xpost! hope I didnt upset you

I am glad to be hearing all this cynicism. This is helpful in truly evaluating the situation.
Two weeks is no time at all and I am sure this old habit will die very hard for dh, it has been a highly successful strategy for many years.
I also know I will have to beware of manipulation for the rest of my life, the danger is not just limited to dh.
I am a very determined person and I am not prepared to risk mine and my children's happiness by allowing dh to manipulate any of us again. But what is the best way to ensure that doesn't happen? Even if we split, we will still need to communicate somehow, we have two children and a business in common, so he would still be able to manipulate me from that position if he chose to.
I want now to be strong and cynical, clear-headed and confident- that is essential.

It's only a motivator at all if he actually believes that this eventuality is really likely. I think some of these guys have such self-belief that they really think that with enough manipulation and chat then then can achieve what they want. And to be fair, often they are right. My experience with ex is that he was literally gob-smacked when I went through with it. He really couldn't understand that this could be happening to him (poor lamb). I really don't know how you save a relationship with EA. Maybe you kick him out and only let him back when he can demonstrate change...but then how do you know that is lasting change either?

thing is-once you are not being manipulated, then you are useless to 'the abuser' You arent the relationship they want then are you?

Come to the EA Support Thread No. 8- yes number 8!!! You can always run stuff by the ladies on there-there are some very very wise women. And your ass will be kicked (very gently) if necessary

bejeezus, i like to flatter myself that I do have some other slightly desirable characteristics beyond my manipulability but I do totally take on board what you're saying. If then, i do make myself immune to the ea and I am therefore useless to the abuser, he will just leave surely- so, job done whichever way you look at it.
I have looked at the ea support thread but I will look again.

Lovingfreedom, I am sure that it would be a huge shock to dh if I asked him to leave. I have told him it is my next move if I still feel abused, but whether he believes me or not is another matter.

"But what is the best way to ensure that doesn't happen?"

You have to become rather more selfish, difficult and demanding yourself. Find your inner Diva and practice the phrase 'I want'. Do not be too worried about being disliked, putting noses out of joint or causing offence. You are not obliged to please others. Put yourself and your children as #1 priority and you'll find that, when choices have to be made, other people automatically come second.

He will soon get bored of "being good". Don't be surprised to find that once he has educated himself about EA, he may well turn it all around and tell you that actually it is YOU who is the abuser, not him at all. This is very common. Good luck, you will need it and I really would love to be proved wrong about this.

Cogito's advice is good, imo. Instead of putting yourself through a self-blaming process (which will only confirm the abuser's viewpoint), go mad for assertiveness. Join courses for the practical exercises and read, read, read. Being assertive means respecting others while placing yourself at the centre of your universe. It's great that you have clear boundaries - now you just need to get more of them, and learn how to set them out.

Oh yes, I had that too. How I had destroyed his self-esteem! I was the aggressive one and always had been. Be on your guard. Good luck. Cogito that is good advice. Difficult to change habits though when you are used to being a 'nice' person. It is quite hard but def the thing to do.

Can I say, as a precursor, that I know nothing much about EA.

However, I have an h who was very manipulative for years. In fact, he admitted it only after we went to Relate, where I had finally put my foot down about the OW he was chatting with for years on the net, and which he would not admit. He isn?t violent or short tempered.

Manipulation came up at Relate,in fact he raised it himself, although he minimised it. When I looked up all the signs and strategies associated with it on Wikipedia, he agreed he had used all but one, namely violence and threats of.

For many years I didn?t see it, but I am capable of standing up for myself and always have been, so we just used to argue endlessly. It was interesting the point made by Cogito, as my h did say, when he admitted the OW, that it wasn?t about sex, but about ?power and control?. So, using Cogito's notion about taking it elsewhere, the more he failed to control me and get his own way, and then finally at work, he started that game instead.

However, I am still with him, and he really has changed. He really has. I think the fact that he knew I would leave was really a wake- up call to him. And also, over the 6 months since discovery of the OW stuff, I too have. For example, I do see now that infidelity was just a symptom of the wider problems in our relationship, to do with his attitude, and my enabling (e.g. through complaining but still staying).

I think you just manage your boundaries. I am going to trust myself that I will know if he tries it again. Over the last 6 months we have had a couple of disputes about the children only, and I have won those debates, although it took some energy. Persoonally, I don?t think that?s bad going in 6 months, although I know some of you will disagree.

Nobody can change overnight, it just isn?t possible. Habits are formed over a whole lifetime. But they can have an intention and a real will to change. Usually a crisis precipitates it, eg you were going to leave him, and he believed it. But there are bound to be examples or occasions when he behaves imperfectly. In those situations, when they arise, it is how he deals with your feedback which will be the judge of him. Does he shout or walk away or insult you or disagree as he used to, or insist on his own way? Does he think that you matter as much as he does? Does he, if he does any of those things as an instant reaction, STOP when you point out to him how you see it? Does he take your feedback on board and offer you the respect which he didn?t before? Is he capable of apologising?

To those who say a person cannot change, I say that we all have the capacity to change. Change takes time, and we will make mistakes along the way. It takes practice.We are not dumb animals.

You are right, OP, that you will need to change too, and learn to stand your ground, and expect real equality, not just on the surface, in words spoken.

And you will need to make the hard decision to leave if he cannot. I am confident in myself that I am firm in that resolve, so I can trust myself.

I had that took- me being the problem when we read a book on exploitative relationships. I soon put that right. You stand firm, and dont believe it.

that too, not took

I agree that most people can change (pathological dysfunction excepted). I query the wisdom of making yourself into your partners' coach, therapist, monitor or behavioural police. Adult relationships should feature an equal balance of power - it swings gently in the breeze of life, but is always centred. By demanding radical change in a partner's personality and then taking responsibility for it, even partially, you automatically adopt an unbalanced power distribution.

Fair enough, it's been badly skewed the other way for X years and there's an argument for switching to the opposite distribution to try and provoke a settling to centre. But how long are you going to do that for, and what will you get out of it? Abusive people actively enjoy controlling others. It's unlikely that you do, too, so why would you choose to place yourself in the role of counter-controller?

If you want to try re-balancing the power, I feel a huge shove - such as chucking the abuser out (and calling the police if appropriate) is more likely to shift it than trying to drag it, piece by piece. If you see what I mean.

Become strongly, healthily, joyously ASSERTIVE for your own sakes, no other reason! Then see where you're at :)

fiventhree is the exception to the rule

Fair play, Sir Sugar!

We have all been in different places, and all bring different skills and qualities and histories to our relationships.

I dont underestimate it as an easy option, either.

Im all for the OP chucking him out whenever she thinks fit, if she does.

Also, I agree with the last poster that it doesnt pay to be their coach and mentor, either. Been there, and dont that!

garlicfucker- that is my exact intention, to become assertive for my own sake. Absolutely.

I have spent my whole life with a little voice in my head whispering, 'don't bother anybody with your needs/wants/opinions, just keep it all inside, you can deal with everything inside your head. Everyone else has bigger and better things to think about' I know how damaging that voice has been and I am going to silence it, but it will take me some time. It is a bad habit just like dh's emotional abuse. The problem is I was hurting myself at the same time as he was hurting me- no wonder it was fucking hard!

I also have a bad habit of thinking everything is my responsibility whilst also at the same time feeling powerless (again, a feeling I have had all my life). I'm not quite sure where these two feelings come from except that my older sister was quite demanding and wanted/needed attention. My parents had very full lives (both worked full time and ran businesses on the side) so i guess I may have been praised for being self-sufficient and not expressing my needs. I do still have a very close relationship with both my parents but they might have inadvertently encouraged my natural propensity towards repressing my feelings.

I am absolutely not going to be dh's coach or therapist. I have told him i will not praise him for not abusing me, that would be like thanking him for being normal. What i am getting now (no abuse) is the minimum I should expect, I certainly won't be thankful for it. Nor is it my responsibility to police him. He has also admitted a slight internet porn addiction (no huge surprise to me) and said he wants to sort that out too. He suggested that I could have a copy of all sites he has browsed emailed to me once a week- i declined because I am not going to be responsible for that too. I am not his jailor or his teacher or his mother.

Fiventhree, nice to hear a more positive tale. I think you are completely right: "But there are bound to be examples or occasions when he behaves imperfectly. In those situations, when they arise, it is how he deals with your feedback which will be the judge of him. Does he shout or walk away or insult you or disagree as he used to, or insist on his own way? Does he think that you matter as much as he does? Does he, if he does any of those things as an instant reaction, STOP when you point out to him how you see it? Does he take your feedback on board and offer you the respect which he didn?t before? Is he capable of apologising?" It would be unrealistic to expect not a single slip into old behaviours but the test will be how does he deal with me bringing it up?

What an insightful post, Poppy. All the best :)