How can you tell if an emotional abuser is definitely changing?

[poppyandthepoppop]

I posted about my situation on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1462723-Is-there-any-way-to-save-this-emotionally-abusive-relationship two weeks ago.
Dh has been emotionally abusive to me for many years, but it has only got really bad over the last three. Two weeks ago I realised what had been going on, and confronted dh about it. Initially, he was unable to accept it, and tried to manipulate his way out of the problem but I held firm and after a couple of days he admitted to his failings. He has tried to get on a Respect course but unfortunately there's a waiting list so in the meantime he has started a self directed programme.
On my other thread most people are cynical about the chances of permanent change. But, I feel i would be a fool to not even let him try.
He has made a very good start I feel and is reading Beverly Engels and working through the exercises. I have read this too and I'm now on 'Who's pulling your strings? How to stop the cycle of manipulation' (braiker). I haven't spotted any abusive behaviour from him since but of course, i know it cannot be this easy!
My questions are, how do I make sure I don't unknowingly fall for any of the old tricks again? How do I determine if lasting change is possible? Has anyone on here ever had their dh successfully reform?

Thanks, I am going to need all the luck I can get! It is one thing working out why you're in a situation, it's another to extricate yourself from it intact!

Poppy,I might inquire more about that porn habit if I were you. I got to thinking about what you are thinking about now, via the discovering dodgy sex route.

You might be in the same boat, but have come at it from the other end, as it were.

For my h, a 'massive porn habit', which i didnt know about, led to a seeking young girls on the net for sex conversations, as part of his need for 'power and control'. I kept finding photos of them on his computer in 'received files', and he explained them away for five plus years as 'accidentally downloaded with music', and all kinds of shite.

There are some interesting connections between power, control, and manipulation in men, I believe.

Regardless of what he is up to there, you may like a book I found stunningly helpful (in all my reading) by Patrick Carnes called the Betrayal Bond- Breaking Free of Exploitative Relationships. There are a few really good and thorough questionnaires for you to fill in.

If your h looks too, he may well see where his feelings came from, in his past, which will be useful to you both.

Just thought of this sparked by another post. I don't know if this is relevant to you but my husband was very good at apologising and I think tbh that was quite an effective strategy for sustaining the relationship for so long. He'd behave badly, apologise well and I felt had no option but to accept the apology. Eventually I realised that one shouldn't need to apologise so often - previously I'd kind of always felt a bit odd that he apologised so much more than I did. He was always so so sorry and always loved me so so much. Sounds pathetic now...but it's compelling when you're in it. Watch out for this kind of thing.

5n3, I never like to put a good woman down and I just love your positive attitude. But I'm worried for you. I know you don't want my worry and have chosen your path, but am also concerned about what looks like evangelism on threads like this.

Taking a hard line isn't wrong, you know. Certainly no more wrong than any other approach, including yours.

Thanks, will check that book.
Dh has come to see the porn habit as unhealthy really only because of the emotional abuse coming to light I think. He sees it all as part and parcel of the same problem each exacerbating the other. He thinks that the both the porn and the abuse increase testosterone levels and therefore beget yet more of the same. He is trying to cut them both out.
There is loads going on in the power/control/manipulation area for dh.
As far as his background goes he has grown up with a highly emotionally abusive mother. His mother dominates their family and is horribly abusive to dh's dad and always has been. When dh was young he was a very challenging child (much like our ds now I think) but her response was to call him a devil child and try and bully him into good behaviour. She bullies them all.
So, dh has tried to avoid being the 'victim' like his dad was/is and ended up the abuser instead.
That is one of the main reasons that i will not become over-demanding and diva-like because I want us to have a healthy mutually respectful relationship and I won't settle for anything less.

Be prepared for it to take years, and I mean more than two. It look me many years to build myself up inside to be able to tollerate people like your dh, and it is still a work in progress.

"As far as his background goes he has grown up with a highly emotionally abusive mother. His mother dominates their family and is horribly abusive to dh's dad and always has been. When dh was young he was a very challenging child (much like our ds now I think) but her response was to call him a devil child and try and bully him into good behaviour. She bullies them all.
So, dh has tried to avoid being the 'victim' like his dad was/is and ended up the abuser instead.
That is one of the main reasons that i will not become over-demanding and diva-like because I want us to have a healthy mutually respectful relationship and I won't settle for anything less".

What you write of re his background is many years worth for even the most forgiving and skillful of therapists. Is he even beginning to address what happened to him, it was not his fault that he grew up within a dysfunctional toxic family (with his Dad acting as a bystander out of self preservation and want of a quiet life).

Is he seeking professional help regarding the porn?. Again if this is not happening I would question why that is.

You are his wife; not his therapist or counsellor. I would give yourself a firm and set time limit re him and stick to it to the letter. I think you at the end of the day cannot help him because he has to actually want to help his own self. Also it may transpire that he does not actually want either your help or support.

I'm not trying to help him. It's just really clear to me as a bystander to pick out the problems with his family, especially as its so different to mine.

Please make sure you keep checking on your OWN feelings!

There are lots of helpful checklists on the Web. here's one:-

Emotionally abusive relationships can be very damaging because there is no 'concrete' thing that can be seen - and so the cause often goes unnoticed. We often just have an 'uneasy' feeling until it is too late and the damage has been done. Emotionally abusive relationships may show as little as only three, but as much as all of the following questions:

1. Is your mate irritated, upset, or angry with you often, sometimes several times a week or more? Are they upset with you even though you had no intention of upsetting them? Are you often times surprised by their anger or sudden outburst? Is their anger directed at 'you' or something they say 'you' did or didn't do? Does he blame 'you' for his outrage, anger, or upset? Does he deny to you his being angry or upset? Do you find yourself questioning everything you do as you do it, lest it angers him?

1. Does he refuse to discuss any upsetting issues with you, or accuse you of trying to start an argument if you bring them up? Do you feel that the issues that arise are never resolved? Do you feel uneasy, unhappy, depressed, or edgy because of these unresolved issues?

1. Does he frequently misunderstand your intentions? Do you end up feeling perplexed and frustrated at his misconstruing your every action?

1. Do you find yourself dismissing the bigger issues of your relationship, such as children, financial investments, or retirement planning because your daily lack of communication is consuming your emotional energy. For instance, do you often worry about him misunderstanding something he thought you said, or what you thought he said? Are the simple little day-to-day issues consuming the big picture?

1. Do you sometimes feel like there is something wrong with 'you'? Do you sometimes feel bad and can't figure out why?

1. Is your mate secretive? Does he rarely, if ever, share his thoughts or plans with you, or discuss issues with you?

1. Does your mate almost always disagree with you? If you say the sky is blue do they say it is grey? If you found a movie to be good do they claim it was bad? Are you always made to feel like you are wrong and he is right?

1. Are you punished when you say "No", or are you made to feel you haven't the right to say ?Stop this?? Do you feel obligated to 'give in' just to keep peace?

1. Does your mate get angry or pretend ignorance if you approach him to discuss an issue? Do you bite your tongue and hold things in?

10. Do you feel like your mate holds all the power in your relationship? Do you find yourself asking for 'permission' to do something or get something, as if you were a child? Do you often apologize for your behavior? Does your mate overpower you making you feel 'needy' and 'humble' to them?

11. Have you gradually stopped talking to or seeing your family? Have you lost contact with your friends? Does your mate criticize your friends, or belittle your family members? Does he complain when you visit them to the point where you stop just to avoid the confrontation and argument? Does your mate's behavior often embarrass you? Does your 'bowing down to him' behavior embarrass you?

12. Do you think that everything is your fault and that if you can somehow fix your flaws that everything would be okay in the relationship?

13. Do you often give in to his sexual demands to keep the peace? Do you have sex, or consent to unreasonable sexual demands, even if you don't want to?

14. Does he do drugs or drink alcohol? Does his personality change when he does these? Do you find yourself having an uneasy 'sinking feeling' when you hear or see him pop open a beer?

15. Does he make fun of you or joke around about your flaws?

16. Can he laugh at his own mistakes, or himself, or admit to his own shortcomings and weaknesses?

17. Does he quickly and easily admit when he's wrong? Can he apologize for his own behaviors? Does he make excuses for his behavior and blame it on someone or something else? Does he point the finger at you and make you feel like you are the reason for his upsets or to fault for his mistakes?

18. Does he make all the decisions in the relationship? Does he plan outings, finances, vacations, retirement, children's discipline, the car, etc?

19. Does he control, curtail, or disapprove of your spending? Has he put you on an allowance, or strict budget, yet has complete freedom to spend as he wishes? Does he keep you financially needy of him?

20. Would you feel frightened or uneasy if he caught you reading this questionnaire, or taking this test?

If you have answered yes to just three of these questions, odds are you are in an emotionally abusive relationship.

What kind of time limit could I set?

Oh, I can, without even the slightest shadow of a doubt, confirm that dh has been emotionally abusing me.
100%.

Uh-huh. Just wanted to remind you to keep en eye on things :)

Actions speak far louder than words; look at what he does to address these issues he has re porn and background.

I would have to say no more than 3-6 months max. You are not here as his emotional punchbag and nor are your children. My friend remained within such a destructive relationship in the vain but ever present hope that he would change, well no he did not and has not but it took her own self to realise that.

do you really love this man OP?

do you think he really loves you?

Garlicfucker-

"
Taking a hard line isn't wrong, you know. Certainly no more wrong than any other approach, including yours."

I couldnt agree more. Just because I have chosen not to leave, does not mean that others should choose to stay and give their partners a chance. Many would be wise not to, and I may find that I am not wise to do so.

It is also quite reasonable that someone who has been in a long term difficult relatiionship might just feel they cant be arsed with all the effort required. And fair play to them. They have already put up with too much, so why risk more, and they only have one life, after all.

My point was simply that people can change. If they want to enough.

I do think that sometimes that is forgotten, or not taken seriously.

YY :) we haven't disagreed, five. Though I'd agree with a world of psychiatrists & psychologists that some people - with serious personality disorders; autism; other conditions which limit mental or emotional flexibility - literally can't change.

Well, OK, some do after a massive physical trauma, but that's hardly an advisable cure.

Oh, I agree.

I am not evangelical about staying at all, in fact.

And there are alot of these sorts of men out there, undiagnosed.

But there are also a number who are diagnosed with this, that and the other by their wives, too, who may or may not be correct. Not that I am saying that those wives are wrong that their experiences of these men are abusive in some way, intended or otherwise.

And in any case, some conditions are in fact learning disabilities as opposed to mental health disorders, although they can be very difficult to live with. (she says, having run a recent paid study in aspergers/autism .

Not that this refers to you at all, Poppy.

I think that you have come a long way already, having seen him for what he has been, and maybe still is. Only you can really know how long to stay with it, although I agree that if he shows that he isnt serious, then it is likely to be best for you to leave him.

I did, however, want to point to a case where my h has displayed some similarites and has in fact effected a change, as far as I can tell yet. I know quite well you wont hear of many on mn, and probably with good reason!