Emotional abuse: Saying you are doing the bad things that HE is doing

[thebighouse]

I was discussing this with a psychologist friend.

Last week, XH was shouting at me and when I cried he said "Stop bullying me! This has to stop!"

My friend said that what happens in this situation is that the man knows that bullying is happening IN THE ROOM but he is unable to comprehend that he is at fault/wrong in ANY way, so he thinks that it must be YOU that's doing the bullying.

I thought that this explanation made a lot of sense!

Thought I'd share it...

yep, it makes sense

projection

the emotionally-challenged abuser couldn't possibly examine his/her behaviour, because their world would spontaneously combust

What sort of psychologist ?
Somebody that has studied it or is currently practising it ?
The clinical psychologists I work with would disagree tbh.

Psychotherapist actually, and a bit of a hippy, but I really liked the explanation and thought it made a lot of sense to me.

What other theories are there for this sort of behaviour? (Except for total wankery, natch.) I really do think that Xh ahs no idea that the anger/shouting/bullying is coming from HIM.

what would the psychologists that you work with say about this phenomenon, Nanny ?

on one hand, I think it makes sense, but part of me can't comprehend that they don't / won't / can't know it's them.

My ex seemed so calculated in his behaviour that he MUST have planned it, thus "know" it came from him...?

I do believe some deeply abusive people will never be able to understand the problem lies with them, and not others

I guess that is getting into the realms of personality disorder though

Yes I don't know the answer at all. XH will stand and shout at me and say "Please stop shouting!"

It is really totally barking but I don't think that he understands that the problem lies with him at all. And he is always in therapy...

Yes its weird OP but I know your description, and there are many examples of it. I've experienced a relative's appalling behaviour, where I was told that I had behaved appallingly. An an old b/f who accused me of giving him STD, when it could only have been him ...

Is it deliberate or are they actually confused in their own minds? Probably a mixture .

I think there's potentially an element of telling US we did stuff that they KNOW we'd be horrified of being accused of, to provoke a dramatic reaction from us. It creates a nifty confusion, stops us seeing the truth.

Clarity, truth. Honesty, openness are the sworn enemies of the abuser. In order to be able to conquer us, he has to put us into a deep state of bewilderment.

The best defence against an abuser is to throw their insults back at them. They hurl the worst possible abuse (to them) at us. When you chuck it back it's astounding to see the devastating effect on them it has.

Mine used to read my diary and then re-use my expressions of emotional pain. I didn't realise this until much later. I thought my verbal abuse had pushed him to unexpected depths of emotional literacy

I don't actually know how abusive I really was towards him. I certainly wasn't a picture of tranquillity but didn't have a clue about all the weird machinations of crazy psychological abusers, so completely misinterpreted what was going on. I sometimes have a look at his divorce statement (the one after I'd made him tone it down) but still don't remember how the incidents he described came about. Or what really happened.

I have to say throwing the insults back has got me several laughs, Hissy, but never a desirable result. Serenity is the best defence I've found so far - ideally, as you serenely lock the door after you.

Either that or a realistic threat of extreme violence

I'd agree that it could be unconscious projection or deliberately designed to discombobulate

I'm not sure it matters much wether they are conscious or not.

If they can't realise that they are at least a great deal at fault, I don't think therapy will help anyway.

They might admit some things and work on them, but won't have the capacity to self analyse in different situations.

My xp used to do exactly the same. It's a well studied and typical example of emotional abuse. They all really do follow the same script!

AF that it's a conscious process. That the behaviour described in the opening post is manipulative. I'm not a psychologist so I don't know if it's true or not . I can think of one who would definetly disagree.
I find it hard to accept that they don't know what they are doing though .
In my mind it almost relieves them of any responsibility if this is true .
If it helps OP come to terms with it though thats positive.
Im sorry if I came across as arsey.

I think some part of my ex's behaviour were completely calculated but I actually think he believed I was emotionally abusing him. So when I finally cracked after listening to him berate me for an hour he would tell me I was unhinged and abusing him.
He would also shout at me continuously and then tell me to 'stop shouting' (I wasn't - I'd just dared to speak) or as he was gearing up to hit me or putting his hands over my mouth to shut me up he would tell me through gritted teeth with 'that' look in his eyes to 'calm down'!
The worst of it was when he went for me in front of DD who was about 1 at the time - he attacked me - hitting me repeatedly, includig on the head with a hairbrush and mobile phone and then said I was the one causing her psychological damage because I screamed.
Nasty, nasty man.
To top it all off - he came from an abusive home and always said he wanted to be different.
Back to my original point (!) I think he often controlled his responses but was sort of in denial and I actually think he was missing part of his emotional 'brain' if you like. He had poor empathy - for anyone - and saw emotion as weak as well as only really understanding anger, sadness and happiness. Although I was never allowed to express anything but happiness.
Seriously messed up. He'll never change either as it was never his fault.
Sorry that was so long - it was very cathartic though!

This is interesting. My Dad can be very abusive. He has recently sent me an awful e-mail and texts, to apparently look after mum. Who I'd offended 3 months ago
by mistake and she'd never said, so it built up and then over this perceived slight I had the most horrendous threatening e-mail Of course as a teenager the abuse was pretty bad at times too and he always made out the problem was all me. He's never ever apologised to me, I always had to accept all blame and grovel to fix things, when it got to a stage where I could no longer stand the atmosphere he'd create afterwards for days. Of course to now 'fix' this recent blow up I'd need to do the same again and I'm not prepared to

Abusers will try to throw what they most fear will be "found out" about them onto their victims. Hence all the belittling and intimidation: they feel shit, so they choose to make someone else feel small in order to be the bigger person in the room. They feel powerless, so they choose to control another person.

I also think that, in their warped view of the world, they experience their victims' independence as a threat to themselves, since the victim is "supposed" to be their puppet. So it's not just that they sense that bullying is happening in the room and they need to blame anyone but themselves for it: it's that they feel that your freedom is very wrong, because it shows you're not under their control where you "should" be, and it hurts them I guess in the way that bullying hurts.

Makes perfect sense. Projection is a well established phenomenon in psychology. It is a defence against intolerable feelings by attributing them to someone else. It is something that everyone probably does, although it would be seen as much more common in something like narcissistic personality disorder. Some psychologists, perhaps clinical, cognitive types, are not as keen on the idea of unconscious processes, but I don't know any that would actually reject the idea altogether.

If it is a conscious process, I think there must be a huge element of denial going on on the part of the 'abuser' as some sort of coping mechanism that skews what is going on making them project their actions on to others.

My XH would spend a long amount of time persuading me how I was emotionally abusing him, that my family were abusive to him, that bosses were bullying him, his parents caused all his problems, it is the neighbours fault for being more successful than him, really that everyone external was at fault and beyond terrible to him causing all his issues. You should have heard the abusive way he spoke to people, seen the way he behaved, he was emotionally, financially abusive towards me and so completely centred on himself that he neglected his children. I know he is not aware of what he is doing on many levels, whether he is in denial, it is hidden from conscious thought, it is part of his mental illness and addictions, whether he could not cope with the reality? Who knows. He is one of those people who is in constant therapy and cannot grasp that the problem and the solution lies within. Tragic.

My XH once said to me "It's all about you, isn't it?" when we were trying to resolve the details of the separation. They were exactly the same words as I had said to him about a month earlier (this was a separation that dragged on and on) when all he kept on about were his emotional and physical needs, his financial needs, his future, him, him, him....no concern shown for our children and their future, let alone mine.

A lot of this sounds so familiar. stbxh still thinks it's all my fault.

I do think he genuinely believes he wasn't a bully, however, as other have said he would berate me without the chance to get aword in edgeways and then tell me I wasn't listening if I tried to say anything in my defence and that I'd missed the point.

I could go on .... I'm still getting it with dealing with the kids and I just hope it stops soon :(

Hungryhippos - I had forgotten that one! I'd told him how selfish he was and it was all about him and he did exactly the same as your XH - gave it back to me over something trivial. In the same words. In fact, he said it time and time again after that.

Nanny you didn't come across as arsey ! What I asked you was a genuine question, truly. I am always trying to learn what motivates these people to act in the way that they do

This post is an absolute revelation, OP you have articulated what I have been struggling with for so long. Our arguments are not even argument anymore as that would imply some sort of input from both parties. He just shouts and tells me not to shout or he will ask me if he can 'get a word in', he normally has nothing articulate to say. He is extremely verbally abusive and will always conclude his rant by telling me that I'm a bully. For me divorce proceeding are now underway and as I have initiated this it is obviously all my fault that I am splitting up the family and forcing the sale of the family home. He will never take responsibility and it is this that makes me so mad