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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Divorce and separation: looking for MNer input

68 replies

RowanMumsnet · 09/05/2012 09:22

Hello,

We at MNHQ are currently brainstorming about a few things, and (bearing in mind how we hit the right note last time Blush) we'd very much appreciate some MNer input to guide our thinking.

We are looking into the possibility of providing some content around relationship breakdown (divorce/separation, mediation, maintenance, parenting after a separation), and we'd love to know what sorts of things you think would be helpful.

This could be anything from comprehensive directories of help that's already out there, to online mediation services, and everything and anything in between: please just let us know what, in an ideal world, you would like to see Mumsnet (or anyone else, including the government) providing that would make the separation process as stress-free as possible for families.

We're mostly looking at things that could be done online, but we're all ears if you have other ideas too. And if there are organisations and services that you think are particularly good, do please give them a namecheck.

We may also start trialling a few ideas over the next few months in order to get your input on those, so watch this space.

Thanks,
MNHQ

OP posts:
DeltaEcho · 09/05/2012 23:54

Advice about living separately in the same home for a period of time.

For e.g. if you decide to separate but financially cannot fund two homes until a divorce settlement has been agreed & the matrimonial home is sold, you can still "separate" but live in the same house.

I think very few people realize that if you do this, you can also claim tax credits as a single person as long as you fulfil the criteria of living separately (tax credits will tell you what you can and can't do).

OhdearNigel · 10/05/2012 21:42

I have an excellent link for a website that has lots of legal resources for all sorts of things that affect women - will try to find it tonight but have it at work as I give it out to clients a lot

OhdearNigel · 10/05/2012 21:44

here is is www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/ Some of their downloadable PDF files are exceptionally well put together.

Mouseface · 11/05/2012 08:56

Practical, simple survival info.

Every little detail needs to be in the most simple of terms. When going through a separation/divorce, planned or not, your emotional state can be so intense that you can't think straight.

Hand holding would have been wonderful for me. Not for everyone, I know but still. If it's there, those who need it can use it.

Maybe somewhere for people to post a brief message about what has happened, and then people can reply with simple, practical help? Like MN Relationships, but separate from the main board? Not to take anything away from there, but a specific board?

What rights you have if married, or if not.

Property laws, can you change the locks? How, where best to start?

Info for those in domestic violence/abuse situations. Who can help, how to get there, free phone numbers where possible, web pages etc.

Who can help with talking to the children/family members.

School meals/funds to help once you're alone.

Changes in tax credits and benefits.

Everything everyone has mentioned so far.

MNHQ - great idea Smile

RipVanWinkle · 11/05/2012 18:30

Apologies if I've missed it mentioned already, but I found Shelter england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/paying_for_a_home/other_benefits/claiming_benefits to be really accessible and cover a wide variety of relevant questions - you can email or speak to them for individual advice & their website is a goldmine of straightforward info. IMHO! Wink

bejeezus · 11/05/2012 19:00

exactly what mouseface said-it really needs to be really really simple

and written down

TheCinnamonGiraffe · 11/05/2012 21:26

A what is normal/what is not normal (or is in fact abuse) list. I feel like I am hanging by a thread, I have spoken honestly to just one friend about some of the things that have happened, she has told me in no uncertain terms that some of the things that ex-p did were wrong and would constitute abuse.

Most of the other people in my life do not know the truth (I couldn't bare to tell them) and they all think that poor ex-p had a tough time and is a lovely guy and that perhaps I was BU and made him leave. I feel like I am loosing the plot at times and sometimes think that I was BU.

Anniegetyourgun · 12/05/2012 14:58

An important thing to remember, Giraffe, is that you have the right to end a relationship that is not working for you. It doesn't matter what someone else believes, especially if they don't know the facts, but even if they do and they don't think it's bad, they are not you.

And always bear in mind the Relationships Bill of Rights.

garlicbutty · 13/05/2012 03:44

Responding after skimming - am in danger of being influenced by previous posts!

? Mediation - now a legal requirement, I believe? It's rubbish, in my experience.

In cases where a generally agreeing couple need to fend off ££greedy lawyers, then great! It's the sort of thing good friends should help with, but sometimes life ain't like that and an actual solicitor working for both parties can be a godsend.

But where things are "complicated" mediation can be damaging. I say "complicated" because very few of us, in the moment, recognise that we are being abused. All we know is that nothing seems to make sense ... We go into mediation with a strategy, but the meeting feels like we've gone into Mad Hatter land and the mediator is the Queen Of Hearts Shock Confused

Mine played lovely husband throughout the sessions, clearly charming the mediator, then staged a full-on tantrum on the pavement outside: he'd agreed to fill out the basic financial forms inside the meeting, but raged that he wasn't divulging his financial info to "any solicitor, bird or bloke" Confused
He didn't, either. I ended up agreeing to some absurdly convoluted deal which left me up to my ears in debt and gave him full control for two years Confused Confused

The mediator's subsequent letters made it clear that she saw me as both the source of the problem and responsible for the charges. That was a result, then Hmm

Sorry, went into a bit of a rant there! To summarise for the visiting reader:
? If you feel confused about your separation, consult an abuse-aware solicitor for advice BEFORE agreeing to mediation.

? Causes - There's still a bizarre amount of conflict around "reason" and "proof" for divorce.

People risked their careers to make it so nobody HAS to stay in a marriage that makes them unhappy. That's it. You don't need to prove anything. For decades already, the law says that if YOUR marriage doesn't make YOU happy, you have the right to end it. Simple? Yes! As it should be.

? You can divorce with mutual agreement that the marriage has broken down. As long as you've been married for a year, either one of you can cite 'irredeemable differences' or 'unreasonable behaviour'. It could be something like opposing political views, badly-matched sexual preferences, different diets, snoring, anything. All the preceding 'reasons' have been successfully cited. The law does not want anybody to feel trapped in a relationship.
[Caveat: I'm 10+ years out of date! If things have changed, they'll have got easier]

? You can divorce with NO STATED CAUSE if you've been married for at least a year and both agree the marriage is now a mistake. This is the scenario that's most likely to benefit from mediation; you can hammer out the details in a non-confrontational environment with legal guidance :)

No-cause divorce, with both parties agreed, takes 2 years to finalise though I think there are circumstances where six months suffice.

? No cause, no respondent: If you leave your spouse, or they leave you, you can obtain a divorce after 5 years of no contact. You do NOT have to show you've made efforts to contact them (a television trope) but it does help if you''ve some documentation to show when the five years started. A good example of documentation would be your divorce application, submitted a few days after you split.

? Annulment is legally available on several grounds, including marriage to obtain a visa. The most historically traditional reason for annulment is failure to consummate (have sex after marriage) but, actually, all governments and all churches recognise other causes for annulment as well. Just not always the same set of accepted causes! Most churches and religions provide for annulment in cases of abuse, disrespect, failure of duty, etc ... however, determination depends on your cleric so you'd be well advised to contact a specialist advisor.

I know all this is really basic, but also know how how impossible it seems when you're locked in the situation. It's all very well saying "if you're being abused" but the truth is, when you're in it, you don't "feel abused". You just feel worn down, out of options, and wrong wrong wrong :(

Post in Mumsnet relationships, phone Womens Aid or Refuge, ring the legal groups linked from their Local pages, consult Rights of Women, and TALK! It will help you get perspective.

skyebluesapphire · 13/05/2012 11:43

My husband has just walked out on me and I have no idea how or where to begin to sort everything out. I suppose I need to see a lawyer first, but everything just seems so daunting and when its not what you wanted, its awful having to sort it all out. My husband is not worried about getting divorced, apparantly its just a piece of paper, but I said if you dont want me, then its the only step we can take, divorce!

gettingeasier · 13/05/2012 11:51

Sorry to hear that sky

Emotional support and advice.

I had relationships from my teens onwards which ended but the ending of my 17 year marriage was a completely different ball game. I looked for recommended books / support groups anything to help me accept that the way I was feeling was ok and normal and to come to terms with fact that recovery could be long and hard but would come in time.

There was a long running thread on here for those who had been dumped (Dumplings...) and the support was invaluable during the worst time of my life

garlicbutty · 13/05/2012 14:35

Oh, skye, you must be feeling all over the place. Do take care of yourself - remember to eat, sleep, wash, etc.

Relate runs support groups for the divorcing and recently divorced. They're not exclusively about repairing relationships, they also help to end them as civilly as possible.

Mouseface · 13/05/2012 18:57

Cinnamon - Sad I have little doubt that it wasn't you x

Mouseface · 13/05/2012 19:03

Skye - he makes it sound so cut and dry...... I hope that you have someone you trust and who cares about who can help with the practical, as well as the emotional things xx

lowprofiler · 13/05/2012 19:04

It is a total minefield when you're hit by separation/divorce so a guide of some sort would be v helpful. You can't always turn to friends/relatives which means you need to glean info off the internet which can add to the minefield. There's a good website called www.resolution.org.uk which lists solicitors and mediators in your area. I have (so far) had a good experience of mediation and would recommend it if both parties want to try and be civilised. I'd love advice on when and how to tell children - does it need to be done together or is it ok to talk separately as parents? Also telling friends/family can have its problems as you can't gauge the reaction and sometimes you get an unexpected meltdown which can really mess with your courage. Other people's stuff gets in the way which can cloud your judgement and clarity. A clear 1-10 list of things to do would be extremely helpful.

olgaga · 14/05/2012 12:58

Relationship Breakdown and Divorce ? Advice and Links

General

Read everything you can get your hands on. Get familiar with the language of family law and procedure and try to get an understanding of your rights BEFORE you see a solicitor. Get word of mouth recommendations for family lawyers in your area if possible. If you have children at school, ask mums you are friendly with if they know of anyone who can make a recommendation in your area. These days there are few people who don?t know of anyone who has been through a divorce or separation ? there?s a lot of knowledge and support out there!

If there are children involved, their interests will always come first. It is the children?s right to maintain a meaningful relationship with the non-resident parent (NRP) ? not the other way around. Children are not possessions to be ?fairly? divided between separating parents. Parents have no rights, only responsibilities. A divorce will not be granted where children are involved unless there are agreed arrangements for finance, and care of the children (?Statement of Arrangements for Children?). It is obviously quicker and cheaper if this can be agreed but if there is no agreement, the Court will make an Order (?Residence and Contact? regarding children, ?Financial Order? or ?Ancillary Relief? in the case of Finance)

Many family lawyers will offer the first half hour consultation free. Make use of this. Don?t just stick with the first lawyer you find ? shop around and find someone you feel comfortable with. You may be in for a long haul, so it helps if you can find a solicitor you?re happy with.

If you can?t find any local recommendations, always see a solicitor who specialises in Family Law. You can search by area here:

www.resolution.org.uk/

Some family law solicitors publish online feedback from clients ? Google solicitors to see if any recommendations or feedback exists.

Mediation

You will be encouraged to attend mediation. If there has been violence or emotional abuse, discuss this with your solicitor first. Always get legal advice, or at the very least make sure you are aware of your legal rights, before you begin mediation.

Married or Living Together?

This is a key question. If you are married, generally speaking you have greater protection when a relationship breaks down.

Legal Issues around marriage/cohabitation and relationship breakdown are explained here:

www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/relationships_e/relationships_living_together_marriage_and_civil_partnership_e/living_together_and_marriage_legal_differences.htm#Ending_a_relationship

static.advicenow.org.uk/files/benefits-and-livingtogether-2010-11-1161.pdf

DirectGov advice on divorce, separation and relationship breakdown:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Divorceseparationandrelationshipbreakdown/index.htm

Legal Rights are further explained here:

www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/legal.php#children_relationship_breakdown

I found these guides from law firms quite informative and easy to read ? there are others of course:

www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/uploaded/documents/Surviving-Family-Conflict-and-Divorce---2nd-edition.pdf

www.terry.co.uk/hindex.html

Finance

Before you see a family law solicitor, get hold of every single piece of financial information you can, and take copies. Wage slips, P60s, tax returns, employment contracts, pensions and other statements ? savings, current account and mortgages, deeds, rental leases, utility bills, council tax bills, credit statements. Are there joint assets such as a home, pensions, savings, shares?

Handy tax credits calculator:

taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk/Qualify/DIQHousehold.aspx

Handy 5 Minute benefit check, tax and housing benefit calculators:

www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/

Further advice and support

www.maypole.org.uk/

www.womensaid.org.uk/

www.gingerbread.org.uk/

england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/families_and_relationships
(Re Shelter, if you are not in England follow the link at the top)

Hope this helps.

olgaga · 14/05/2012 13:19

I forgot to add the Child Maintenance Calculator under "Finance"

www.csacalculator.dsdni.gov.uk/calc.asp

ItAlwaysPours · 14/05/2012 20:54

Advice on the best way of dealing with parenting differences after a separation e.g. discipline, alienation, keeping regular decent communication, agreeing on contact and changes to lifestyle including introducing new partners/other potentially emotionally charged elements so that when emotions are raw, there is a clear logical reasoned advice/way forward you can fall to.

A way of diluting the difficulty of listing problems for an unreasonable grounds divorce. We both didn't want to wait 2 years, had agreed it was right but it was still tough listing 6 things that meant our marriage couldn't continue even though we were still friendly at that stage.

Guidance on drawing lines i.e. when does behaviour go from different parenting styles to abusive and what options if something like this happens.

Some way of encouraging two way agreement, often seems very one sided (lead a horse to water etc.)

Better evidence/research into what is best for a child in terms of contact including whether a low functioning parent is actually better than nothing and long term impact.

Details of support, advice services, child counselling for common child issues relating to this e.g. anger issues, selfesteem issues.

Just continue being the great website you are, not sure I would have survived break up and subsequent lone parenting if it wasn't for me being able to lurk here daily, see all points of view, seek advice from the collective wisdom when I can't see an answer myself.

RowanMumsnet · 16/05/2012 10:18

Hi all,

Just wanted to say - thanks so much for the brilliant ideas and comments; they've been incredibly useful. Do please keep them coming and we'll let you know how things are developing.

Thanks
MNHQ

OP posts:
ChristinaF · 16/05/2012 21:01

I am a solicitor specialising in Family law. Before I trained as a solicitor I was a journalist writing for national newspapers, so I would be very happy to help you put some content together as I hopefully have both the legal knowledge and the writing skills necessary. (I have also been a mumsnetter since 2000, when my eldest daughter was born!).

This sounds like a very exciting project, I know from my work that divorce is an emotionally turbulent time and understanding all the options and all the legal jargon can be very tough.

You are welcome to email me direct if you would like:
[email protected]

itdidntworkout · 17/05/2012 23:29

I would like a step-by-step guide; one for those with children and one for those without.

This is what you do, this is who you speak to, you need to fill out these forms etc.

it really is a minefield and doing it on your own makes it all so lonely.

AllTheRAGE · 18/05/2012 21:16

Would be useful to see something that gives a child's perspective on divorce as it's not usually taken much into consideration.

Parents don't generally consider their children's views on family relationships as being worth anything much - they're only children, they don't understand, etc - so if you recognise that that's your view you should be honest about it rather than trying to pretend that you care what your child thinks about the issue.

Just my opinion, but I believe many people tell themselves their child will be happier if they are happy, but if there's no actual abuse, just 'growing apart' or whatever the buzzword is these days it can be pretty devastating and children soon realise that their own happiness is completely irrelevant.

Pedigree · 19/05/2012 20:07

Get karen woodall to write some set of basic guideline on how to get cooparenting when separated to a good start.
And also, please include her suggestions on how to tell the children, I'm sure her approach is far less traumatic than formally sit the children down to break the news.

Firepile · 19/05/2012 20:49

Just a quick plea that any legal advice makes clear that the legal situation in Scotland is different to that in England...

origamirose · 20/05/2012 21:31

There is so much I'd like to see on this topic...

  1. some factual legal information - I am shocked at some of the non-expert legal advice that is often given by posters.
  2. how to minimise the impact on children - what causes damage and how to avoid it
  3. how to put hurt/anger/emotion to one side when children are involved
  4. how to effectively co-parent
  5. what to do when one parent is actively alienating another
  6. how to be a good step parent

I also think that mumsnet is in a good position to carry out some thorough research on many of these topics - I think it's much needed - to actually validate a lot of heresay.

That's a starter from me.