Is there any way to save this emotionally abusive relationship?

[poppyandthepoppop]

dh and I have been together for 18 years, married for 12 and have 2 dc (6 & 8).

Yesterday I had a revelatory moment, that I should have had years ago, that he has been emotionally abusing me for a long, long time, probably since we met. He is very clever and incredibly manipulative- an absolute jekyll and hyde. Most of the time he is fine as long as everything goes his way but heaven forbid that someone else makes a mistake or disrupts his plans (no matter how minor). He can blow up at the slightest provocation and recently I feel it has been getting worse. He then usually does something like cook me a lovely meal or take me out for dinner or buy me some clothes to make up for it. I don't want any of those things- I want respect.

Over the last week he has exploded and subjected me to massive tirades over several trivial things. He has over-reacted to the children in a spectacular fashion grabbing them and being really rough while shouting at them- very frightening.

On thursday he discovered that we had not been included in a night out with three other couples that we are friendly with. He was very cross about this and ranted on about it. I tried to placate him by saying not everyone has to be included in every social event and other platitudes but in the end he concluded that it was my fault for having poor social skills and then expanded on my failings in social situations and described me as a useless friend. I felt absolutely terrible after this and couldn't sleep all night.

The irony is that yesterday I was invited out with the female halves of these couples. It got me thinking about his behaviour the last few times we have socialised with these couples. He has started an intense debate with a head teacher about education where dh was rudely over-riding everything the head was saying. Another time he proceeded to make derogatory comments about one husband after he had left. Also, one friend made a jokingly rude comment to dh and he responded with real venom and was really insulting in return. Maybe, just maybe, it's him with the poor social skills.

He has been claiming he is stressed because his brother and sis-in-law, who had a still born baby last year, are due to have another baby on Friday and he is worried about them. On sunday he had a big explosion over my mum and dad coming for lunch, the kids and I went and spent the day with my parents instead.

When we talked about it yesterday he said it was because I hadn't talked to him about his worries and I wasn't looking after him enough. I had left him alone when what he needed was company. When I tried to explain that no matter what the worries, it wasn't fair to take it out on me or the kids he just said I didn't understand him and wasn't listening to what he was saying, I mustn't tell him off or shout at him or tell him he's bad- I must be kind to him. What a load of shit.

I feel now that I will wait until next week and the new baby is here, so that he can't use it as an excuse, and then I have to issue him with an ultimatum. He must treat me and the children with loving respect or he must leave.

I am sure we will need professional help if we are to stand any chance of saving our marriage but will it work? Can the leopard change his spots?

Do you honestly think your dh will suddenly turn into a decent, caring and loving husband when his brothers baby is safely delivered? Really?

And its not your job to take care of him.

Wait by all means.
And give him an ultimatum if you like.

What will be your cut off point?

What will he need to do to make you leave? YOU and HIM must be aware of what it is.

Because, otherwise, you will always find excuses to stay and he'll leave enough time until you sort of forget the ultimatum and it all starts all over again.

TBH, I'd wait until next week, get legal and financial advice in the meantime, put a plan in order and leave (or ask him to).

If he wants to win you over, then he can sort himself out and you then decide what to do.

Hi OP - I posted about an EA relationship last night. You might want to take a look 'I am going to leave, 10, 20, 50 time lucky'.
I think he will never change as in his mind he is not doing anything wrong. This is how it is with my DH, it is always me not doing enough, doing too much etc etc etc. Never Never good enough.
You need to take a step back and look long and hard at your relationship
Good Luck

No, I don't think he will change when the baby arrives but if I issue the ultimatum now he will use it as an excuse and will say I am cruel for 'starting on him' when he is dealing with that. I don't want it to cloud the issue.

Splitting up is not something I want to do, I still believe that there is good in him. Maybe I am delusional. It would be incredibly complicated as we own a business together that we run from my parents' home- I can't see how we would sort it out financially. I guess the only way would be for him to keep the house, me to keep the business and me and dc to move in with my m&d. But that would be a massive upheaval for everyone involved and not something I would do lightly. I have to try everything else first.

I think you've got to leave. He sounds horrible and it sounds like a lousy way for your dcs to grow up. On the timing, if you're about to have a baby, you know best about what timing will work for you.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that when you issue the ultimatum after having the baby, he'll claim you're just been hormonal and irrational.

To both tigger and poppy - you can't wait till an abusive man decides it okay for you to go. He'll never be understanding about it. It's hard, because you are literally trained for years to seek his approval. Seperating without his approval feels like a massive transgression. But it never gets better if you stay - just a long, slow slide into hell.

Poppy,

What do you get out of this relationship now?. Something keeps you within this, what is it?.

What else realistically can you try and why you feel exactly a need to further try?. Joint counselling is a complete non starter in this relationship due to the ongoing abuse he metes out and no decent counsellor would see the two of you together. He likely also would refuse to go to any counselling session.

Do you really want your children to see your relationship as a model for their future relationships?. This is beyond saving; its dead in the water because he does not think he has or is doing anything wrong.

He enjoys watching you squirm about on the end of his chain of his own making for you; he enjoys seeing your discomfort. Leopards do not change their spots; he is basically doing what all abusive types do which is to absolve themselves of all responsibility for their actions. This is all about power and control; he wants absolute over you.

His reasons for his behaviours are ridiculous to boot. You are but possessions to this man who is happy to use and abuse you as he sees fit. He treats your friends appallingly also because he can; they probably wonder what the hell you see in him and feel a great deal of pity for you.

There are financial implications sure as well as emotional ones to leaving but these are not and are never good enough reasons to be staying within this. You need legal advice re the business and financials and asap.

You are not responsible for his actions. He acts like this too because he can.

What are you both teaching your children about relationships?. Two words, damaging lessons.

He rounds on your children and you write you don't want to split up?. You think there is still good in him. You need to wake up and properly see what is happening to you and by turn your children. You've been in this for so long that you've come to normalise his abuse, this has become your norm and your children are seeing his abusiveness as well now. I feel particularly sorry for your children in this because currently both adults in their lives are letting them down massively.

Leaving him is scary yes I grant you but remaining within this is a damn sight worse for not just you but your children as well. They won't thank you longer term for remaining for such an individual and would perhaps ask you why you put him before them. Your relationship with them if you stayed as well could be damaged because of this man if they think you stayed because of them (they will call you a daft mare for doing so). They will likely see you as weak or even worse despise you for staying with their awful dad.

I would suggest you read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft.

I know you are all right about him not changing after the baby is born. Lucilky, I am not pregnant (the baby is dnephew) and he is just using that as a limp excuse for abusing me.
I have just issued the ultimatum. I said i wouldnt stand for any threatening behaviour again. I am not sure how much he has taken on board, I guess it is a big shock to have me stand up to him. He has tried to say it is my fault and that he is only threatening to the children because I don't discipline them properly.
He says he won't stand anymore of this and hat he is leaving. I was worried about being in the house with him so I'm sitting in the car on the drive. What do I do now? Stay here? Drive away?

I could text him (he's inside the house) and tell him to go?

He either has to face up to the problem and take responsibility for it or I have to go and stay at my m&ds with the kids and then I will have to tell them what he is really like.

if he said he is leaving then let him leave. Don't make any spur of the moment decisions. If he won't leave like he says he is going to then you will know he is all talk. It's my guess he has no intention of leaving but is just saying that to try to get you to do what he wants.

Don't leave yet even if he doesnt. Spend some time seeking legal advice, find out what your entitltled to, visit the CAB, your local housing department, a free consultation with a solicitor, etc etc.

Your parents are gonna have to know in the end anyway aren't they? I mean, if you separate from your partner.

Don't bother sitting outside in the car texting. you'll just be playing ping pong text for ever. Go back in and say you agree with him that it would be better if he left and say that it would be best if he did this immediately rather than dragging things out.

why are you afraid of being in the house with him?

Poppy - it was desperately cruel of him to blame you (and I mean fundamentally blame you by tearing you apart bit by bit) for not being invited out by those couples.

He won't change.

I believe in marriage and I very much believe in staying together for the children unless there is good reason to part.

This is good reason - your children will be relieved. They have walked over egg shells their entire lives and are learning what relationships look like from your marriage.

He grabbed your children roughly and shouted at them, then blamed you for it. If you stay with him you need to sit your children down and explain that they can expect this to happen again and that you're ok with that.

He has tried to say it is my fault and that he is only threatening to the children because I don't discipline them properly. Please re read this to yourself. He admits to be threatening towards your children (unacceptable) and then blames you for it!

He is not just emotionally abusive he is also physically abusive He has over-reacted to the children in a spectacular fashion grabbing them and being really rough while shouting at them- very frightening. If you found this frightening what do you think your children felt?

What is his excuse for being a twat in company so much that they no longer invite him/you as a couple but you are invited separately?

He needs a lot of professional help first before you as a couple begin any. Trouble is as this is 'all your fault' then it would be a miracle if he admits that he is responsible and needs help and goes to find it. You cannot get the help for him.

Until he does this you don't have a hope in hell of him changing for more than a few days or a week until he thinks you have forgotten again.

"Can the leopard change his spots?"

No... because it is clear this particular leopard thinks everyone else's spots need changing and his are perfectly OK. He sounds absolutely horrible.

"Splitting up is not something I want to do, I still believe that there is good in him"

Poppy, Every single one of us who has been in an abusive relationship thinks this.

Every single one of us has to come to terms with the fact that it's UTTERLY wrong, that they will never, and i mean EVER change. that they ENJOY treating us as they do, and actually they WILL ONLY GET WORSE.

You know you need to leave now, that genie is out of the bottle. He has started to hurt your children. Enough is enough. You HAVE to get him out of the house. The rest will work itself out. You MUST protect your DC.

Oh, and NEVER, EVER EVER agree to counselling with this man, he will use it to abuse you and your family even more.

Ok, we have talked some more and he has admitted it is his fault and his responsibility.
He says he will change and I think I have to give him a chance. There would be enormous upheaval and financial issues if we were to split and it seems mad to put everyone through thuat if there is a glimmer of hope. Splitting up would be cataclysmic in its impact, our business would be very hard to run without both of us so that would put at risk the income that me, dh and dc live off, not to mention the rent my m&d live off and the jobs of our employees.
This will be the last chance though, to be fair, I have never issued an ultimatum before. I just hope he truly understands how serious this is.

I need to put myself in a strong position in order to deal with this. I need to know what my options are if I decide that glimmer of hope has gone. I need to stay strong so I can do whatever is required.
Would relationship counselling for me be a good idea? I have checked and you can have online counselling from relate. Would that be useful? I was thinking we should both go but it seems that it's not recommended in these cases.

Get him in counselling, but not with you.

Counselling for you may be good, at least for you to be clear about what to expect from the relationship and get some self-esteem and inner strength.

You both need to be clear about what needs to change and what will mean that you will leave.
And be prepared to leave.

Remember how much more cataclysmic it will be to continue living with an abusive person.

OK, so if that is what you are going to do then you need some resources (see this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1448224-Support-thread-for-those-in-Emotionally-Abusive-relationships-number-8, you need to educate yourself about him.

If you read nothing else then get the Lundy Bancroft book Why does he do that?

Set your boundaries and stand up for them, be prepared that his behaviour may (probably will) get worse. Make sure you are NEVER without your mobile phone so you can dial 999 if necessary. Keep your most important documents and bank details somewhere easy to pick up (or even better at a different address).

Don't leave him with the children.

DON'T go to counselling with him, don't accept "anger management"...it makes these men worse, the only appropriate counselling is a perpetrator's course validated by respect.

even with counselling the outlook for lasting significant change is poor.

Whatever you do, please keep posting here and/or on other threads, you will find support and friends who have much experience to share and who will not judge you.

Delete your internet browsing history and do private browsing (see the women's aid website if you don't know how)

We have been there, we know what it is like, we feel for you and will support you. Look after your children, be careful.

Sorry cross posting...DO NOT do couples counselling with your husband,

if he has individual counselling it should only be with someone who knows he is emotionally abusive and will check his "version" of events with you...other wise it will be ego-centric counselling that validates his opinions and will MAKE THINGS WORSE.

counselling for you might be helpful

He has you well trained and you will cling on to any hope he gives you.

You have made one ultimatum; you cannot repeat an ultimatum. What you have to do with that is to follow it through otherwise it loses all its power and he then has carte blanche to do as he pleases again.

I fear he has told you what you want to hear and that any change in his behaviours will be short lived. They all say they will change, I am so sorry to undoubtedly sound cynical to you but this is precisely what keeps women within unsuitable and abusive relationships (the eternal hope that such men will change with their love and affection to bring them back around to being that nice person again. Its a mirage. It took my friend 8 long years to realise that no, her man was not going to change. Do not meet her fate).

You cite financial reasons but these are NOT enough to stay for now. He has already started on the children, what next for them?. Do not put your man ultimately before your children. I am not suggesting that you will in the long run but they have already seen his wrath and at 6 and 8 they are impressionable young people. It is up to you to protect them.

Absolutely No repeat No and No again to couple counselling. Such men like your H will use any joint counselling to dominate the session and make it all out to be your fault. If you have counselling go on your own, it will help you and you can talk in a safe environment without being shouted down or manipulated again by your H.

He won't change for you or anyone else. Sorry Poppy but he will not. Why should he, he is getting what he wants from this relationship i.e to control you and keep you and the children in that hole he has dug for you.

Poppy - NO-ONE benefits from being in an abusive relationship. Remember that prescient fact also.