Anyone want to leave a dh who is a good dad and still loves them?

[TryingToKeepitTogether]

I am trying to keep my marriage together, and trying to understand if there is any hope.

For a couple of years now my dw has taken little joy in anything and become very negative about everything, especially but not only me. We are in our mid 40s, one dd though we wanted more. Dws mum got very Ill about the same time it started, which has made her busy and guilty as well as sad. I have been doing my best, increasing my share of looking after dd, which I have always enjoyed and done a lot of, housework and cooking, which we have always shared, and helping whenever allowed with mum in law. This has taken a toll on my work, but I have not really minded. Dw has also had trouble with her back and knees, with sleeping, and other general health, and had a spell of being very busy with work and other commitments on top of her mum. In the course of all this we slowly stopped doing the things together that we used to enjoy, two of us and even whole family together. It seemed to me there was never time, but dw says the fact that i didnt make arrangements shows that i didnt care about her. Now she says she has given up trying to live with me and wants a divorce. She says I lack empathy, don't understand her, and have made her into a person that she doesn't like, take her for granted, dont pull my weight around the house, do any number of small annoying things. We argued like this a few times, and each time I have started by listening and trying to ask how I can make things better, but end up talking back because I can't seem to just sit there and soak up the criticism and negativity. Then we have a few months where things seem better, only to go around again. She now says that she has done all she can and doesn't want to try any more. But I don't think we have really tried at all, not together. She says she will not talk to anyone outside, her friends or a councillor, about it because her mind is made up.

Does anyone feel the same about their marriage?

Can you just fall out of love with a dh, even though she agrees that I'm a good dad and still love her. Would it be better for dd, and the two of us, for me to give up too and try to take the amicable separation that's being offered? Or could it be that her mind will change and I need to keep trying?

I have just told my dh tonight that I want him out but because he is basically doing a lot f the things your dw is he is constantly negative on himself me and pretty much everything else he has now started abusing drink and drugs so I've had enough.

OTOH your situation sounds v different as it's you who wants to keep the marriage together, I applaud you for that it's a LOT harder than it looks! I don't have much any useful advice for you sorry but you sound like a lovely man who is working your finger to the bone to try and keep your marriage/family together and I'm v sorry your in this position it's shit!

Disney doesn't prepare you for the moment when you realise that "the one" isn't the same one you can build a stable, long term relationship with, does it?

Nope it doesn't indeed, nor does most f the media/film industry TBH but that's a whole other discussion

From what you've said, it doesn't sound as if there is any hope, no. Her mind is made up, she doesn't want to discuss it any further, she wants a separation/divorce.

Discontent with a relationship may be either cause or effect - by that I mean she is either fed up because of the relationship, or there is something else going on that is giving her a jaundiced view of the relationship.

So - a few thoughts:

1. Do you agree with any of her points, are they valid, and have you really tried to make things better?
2. Is there a possibility that she is depressed (gives most people a negative outlook on everything)
3. Is there a possibility that she is having/ has had an affair (often throws the current relationship into a poor light, especially if it's a longer one - it is seen as "boring" in comparison with the excitement of the affair)
4. She may have just hit that age where she feels life has passed her by and she may have newly-single friends who are getting out there and having a good time by themselves and feels that she would like some of that too

There are many different reasons why people's relationships break down, but you aren't going to find out without really talking about it - if she is purely nitpicking on trivia, then I would think something deeper is going on that she doesn't want to discuss - and I'd want to know what it is, to be honest. I think it's a poor show on her part that she doesn't want to even attempt relationship counselling or "talk about it any more" and I'd try to push for that as part of agreeing to the separation because it's not fair to leave you wondering.

Of course it may just be that the minor irritations over the years have reached a point of screaming rage and she just wants out - and if that's the case then there's not a lot you can do about it, short of having a total personality transplant.

What thumb said.

I have just done this. After similar experiences. My DH is a good father but he was not emotionally there for me - and I knew he would never care for me the way I needed when I was old and ill. He said he would, but he didn't like it at all when I was ill or upset and would get angry.

I know he would say what you have said. From my point of view, I need to know that my life partner will be on my side in times of illness when I'm old.

He doesn't see my reasoning at all but it became huge for me.

thebighouse you have voiced one of my issues - I often wonder what dh would be like if I were on my deathbed, and based on his present distance (our relationship is very superficial), I too think that he would be the last person that I would want there, I totally totally understand where you are coming from
trying I too think that your wife "owes" you more of an explanation and exploration, if she categorically refuses to go to counselling, could this be part of the early stages of divorce mediation (during which it is still possible to change one's mind)?

Thumbwitch.

2 sounds most likely, but I was indignantly shot down when I raised the possibility. I am hoping she will talk to someone else, and lying low to give her space to do it now that the idea is out there. We have only talked once since she announced her desire to separate, and that only reluctantly, cut short with " I'm tired, had enough, you're being unfair". She seems to have lost contact with her old friends, and when they do come up she is mostly negative about where their lives are now.

Thebighouse

Can you tell me more about how you feel? You sound like you might be in the same place as dw. Do you know what help you need, and do you really think you will find it by separating? Or did you just feel you had to take action to make things change? Did you criticise him when you wanted help? This was my downfall, I could not seem to get past the insults to find a positive response. I wonder how many men could have. Have you talked about trying to fix it together? I agree with the posters who say that she owes me this, but don't see how I can make it happen without making things worse. I would not enforce it legally, just for me, unless I thought it might work.

Is there anything dh could have done ( or do if you have not yet pulled the trigger) to make you change your mind? In case he's like me, here's where I am. Im SURE I'd support dw to the end if she were Ill or otherwise in trouble. I made a promise to myself, her and the wide world when we married, and I meant it. I expected the same back. She says I'm a "sticker" as if it were quaint, or devalued my love into mere duty or laziness. I think it's selfish for her to leave without more effort, more for dd than me. We both agree that dd is a wonderful gift to each other, who has been pure joy to us and matters most in this. Why isn't that enough? Dws family is small and the emotional support she has had there, no men for decades, is fading. I understand how bad this must feel, and have done my best. But I am not her mum, and never can be. Maybe I love dd too much and by contrast seem to take dw for granted, but it seems that an adult should understand love better than a small child. Maybe I am too unemotional in my response to her distress, instead I offer what I would want ... Affection, concern, and practical help. It's obvious from our upbringings why this would be the case, but I'm not willing or able to undergo a personality transplant. it would be so easy now to give in, move on, and make the most of it. But I truly believe that all of us, especially dd, would be Less happy.

I think hard though it is, the only thing you can do now that has a small chance of making a difference is to listen to her.

Really listen. Without defending, justifying or arguing. Focus on what she is telling you. Tell her that if that is what she really wants, then even though it will be hard that you will support her. Let her know that you think her feelings are valid, even if you disagree with what she is saying.

It sounds to me like this is a tower of resentments that has finally toppled over, maybe many small unresolved problems that have eaten away at your relationship.

Let her know that she is important to you by not dismissing what she is saying. If she's reached this point she has probably made her mind up but if you change the way you have been reacting or dealing with problems, maybe there is a small chance of saving your marriage.

I would tell her that you are prepared to change and put in more effort and that you will go to Relate alone if you have to. Let her know that you take her concerns seriously.

And if she doesn't change her mind, you have to accept it, and do whatever you can to ensure that you separate amicably.

It sounds like it's over trying.

Maybe a trial separation? So you get used to the idea.
You may never know what her reasoning is, so be prepared for that, and chin up.

I'm afraid I think it sounds like the end, too. It does seem your wife may be depressed - it's very likely that her mother's illness triggered it. She ought to go to her GP and give things some time, to see if antidepressants soften her point of view and help her feel more in charge of her life.

But ... The crux of it, really, is that she's an adult individual and has every right to end her relationships if she chooses. It's pretty horrid of her to refuse to discuss things but, as you must be aware, nobody ever made someone love them by hassling them about it :(

The only 'fault' I've picked up from your posts is a possible shortfall in respect for her individuality. She is entitled to be down, depressed, stressed and out of sorts. She hasn't got to love you. When you asked her to tell you her troubles, you found you couldn't resist answering back: is it possible that, instead of really hearing a woman in pain, you heard accusations? If you confronted when she confided, that was a poor response. If you think this may be what you did, please tell her so - and leave your ego outside the door when you talk about it.

Hi - I am probably a bit like your dw at the moment, but without the insults. I can't do insults but it does seem as though requests such as 'can you not put that there each time' (the minor bits that come up when you've been living together for a long time) are taken by him, as offensive and he then jumps down my throat or says nothing, but does the thing again that I've asked him not to do. That's a bad example but sometimes it's the little things that add up long term, that then indicate that someone doesn't really respect you.

What are the criticisms she makes and why do you think she makes them? Can you give examples?

A suggestion in the meantime is that you give her space, the space to make her own choices about how to take this forward. Suggesting counselling and doctors for depression is NOT a good idea, she's capable of doing those things for herself and really doesn't need to be told. I would find it insulting tbh, however well meant.

She hasn't had a father figure around in her family so probably doesn't see the need to have a man around so sadly she may see you as dispensable in a practical sense.

The thing that men often don't do is express their own vulnerability and sadness about divorce - it might be good to do that, but at the same time tell her what impact it will really have on you and your daughter if you do separate. Not in a guilt trip way, but in a way that will make her know the impact of what she is proposing.

But I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions and you need to explain more about the kinds of things you say to each other and what she's negative about.

Why does she "owe" you anything?

Anyway, I basically did this. I don't think XH really understands yet. He is a loving father, and an involved one - actually more so than he was when we were together.

There were no affairs, and while I was depressed, it wasn't depression causing the problems, quite the reverse in fact.

It was also situational - having to work long hours for very little reward, I had wanted to move home from before we were married, and he agreed but reneged on that. I was miserable in the place we lived.

I did not like the person I was when I was with him. I was horrible, really mean. I'm not an emotional person, and I'm not able to be someone's "all," I need a LOT of space which I could not get without him feeling rejected and hurt. I was sick of being responsible for his feelings. And because of the work situation, I was unable to keep up my interest (music) which may sound trivial, but it is genuinely not.

Not everyone is cut out for marriage, not all marriages are worth trying to save. I am very sorry I ever got married, I have told XH that and apologised for it - but FFS, I was 25, who knows anything about themselves then?

I don't owe XH anything other than doing everything in my power to support him in his parenting of our children. The children and I are now very happy, and he is not unhappy and is getting better as time goes on. I think he still thinks he loves me, but I don't believe it, because he doesn't really know me at all.

Oh, BTW, what horsetowater said is very true - I grew up in a single parent family, and as a child when I imagined how grown up life would be, I never ever envisaged marriage or LTR.

I did this, in a way. What some PP's said is similar to how I felt, he didn't care about me, got angry when I was ill (usually pregnancy related) rather than being caring, I felt that he had no respect for me as an individual, if he did anything around the home he wanted patted on the head for it, if I was at home all childcare responsibility defaulted to me. He found it very difficult to accept my decision, your OP really does ring a lot of bells from that period of time for me. He would say "well I've done x/y/z for you, how can you still not want to make a go of things", and he didn't seem to grasp that sometimes even when behaviour is modified, the feeling that resulted from the behaviour still remain and cannot be erased. What you said about her saying that she was done trying, and you saying you felt you (plural) haven't tried at all, really strikes a chord with me. My ex said this too. As it was, I felt I had been "trying" for the whole of our relationship without getting the same back from him, and I felt it really unfair that when I'd finally had enough and ended it he then had the audacity to say I was being unfair by not giving him a chance to try and fix things. It sounds like your wife feels similar. She has already done her "trying" in whatever form, and she has moved past that stage now. This may not be your fault, but it isn't hers either.

I agree, she doesn't "owe" you anything. She has given you her explanation, she's told you her feelings, it isn't her responsibility to try and make you feel ok about it. If she is unhappy and she feels that the marriage has reached its end then that is reason enough. Focus on what is good for your daughter and make the split as amicable as possible.

Thanks for all the opinions and advice. It sounds like its a common situation, and we may have ignored each others' differences for all those years because there were things to do together, discovery, house, kid, sex, travel, sport and oudoor activities, that no longer have the power they used to. I feel it a bit, but i think its much worse for dw. Blame is easy to throw, and while trying not to I guess in the end I've started to think a lot of negative things too. And Ive said my share, which will probably not be forgiven. I well recognize that monogamy is not the natural way of human instinct, but a compromise.

This sounds like I'm giving in. But still, for dd if only that, I will wait and hope. We are now coexisting without aggro, which is a relief. And its very easy for me to think of a lot of positive things about dw and our relationship, maybe she too will remember them. She looks like she will have opportunity to talk with friends, which is all i was asking for. And i will now be better at following Inadeeptrance s advice and listening without bringing my self along. That's so hard, but the detachment I'm starting to feel will help. Maybe I have always asked too much, in terms of closeness and commitment for dw, at least from the point when we agreed to get married and have a family. Many of you seem to feel the same way, and our big vs small, male dominated vs all female families may be all you need to explain this. We also inherited different ideas about duty, mine outward hers inward. It sounds so cliched, men from Mars women from Venus, but then a lot of cliches are also true.

I wonder whether things could have been changed if I'd found mumsnet 18 months ago. I knew of it from dw, who could so easily be one of you from what you are writing. Ha, wouldn't that be the ultimate irony of the modern world if we were communicating successfully only via the anonymity of the Internet!

I'll keep reading in case there's more to learn, and will post again if anything changes. How long do these threads stay open?

That's an interesting observation Trying, you are both from polar opposite backgrounds (in terms of gender balance) and have been brought up with views of the opposite gender that are incompatible. That doesn't mean to say that a relationship can't work within that set-up, but I can imagine that there are probably a lot more misunderstandings to deal with.

You are doing the right thing by standing back for now, give her some space to look at you from a distance again. She might like you more from a distance.

And apologise to her for what you've said in the past. Unresolved pain turns into a wound if it's not treated early.

Oh, one more important question...

Did anyone leave dh in a situation like this and find it made things worse, not better?

This thread will stay in the archives for ever, Trying. It's only threads in Chat and OTBT that disappear after a short time, everything else stays.

However, it will disappear from your Threads I'm On list after 3 or 5 days of no responses by you depending on your settings - so I'd suggest you click on Watch This thread at the top of the page, as Watched threads stay listed until you remove them.

I'm glad that you are finding a level of acceptance and managing to coexist - it's not a nice period of time but the important thing now is to keep it calm for your DD's sake, if no one else's.

Does anyone feel the same about their marriage?

Can you just fall out of love with a dh, even though she agrees that I'm a good dad and still love her?

Trying - the answer to the 2nd question above in my case would, to the outsde world, seem to be a simple 'yes'. BUT - its more complicated than that. My exH and i married when he was 23 and i was 21, and after 17 years, 3 children and alot of soul searching i finaly admitted to myself that he loved me much, much more than i had ever loved him, and i was dying inside. I had been for years. So 4 years ago i walked out. (the children elected to come with me) I feel terribly guilty about the hurt i caused, but i had to go.

Outwrdly i supose our marriage had seemed fine. He didnt hit me. He didnt drink. He wasnt unfaithful. We plodded on.

It took me till my late 30s to realise i couldnt/neednt stay with him for the rest of my life purely out of a sense of duty to do the right thing by him and my vows.

I went through various stages of 'trying to change things' with him over the years. Nothing really worked as deep down the problem was unchangable.

When i left one of his main laments was that i hadnt let him try and change. That i gave him no warning. He didnt understand how i had just stopped loving him.

We are both in happy relationships now. I've remarried, and he is due to marry this summer. The children are happy.

I dont know if all this is of any help to you. Did you and your wife get together very young? Have you, in fact, simply grown apart and your wife is now pulling away? Its just a thought. I wish you all the best - but if she has made up her mind then prepare yourself, and use the sense of distance you are feeling now to give you strength.

Actually we met in our early 30s. I'm waiting for dw to decide whether she never really loved me, or at the other extreme is desperate for a more emotional style of support. All is calm, and if she decides she still wants to leave I will accept and move on. For my part, I still can't understand how the love we had all those years can be forgotten. If it ever meant anything, it can again.., peoples personalities don't change, at least not permanently in the absence of serious mental illness. So I'm taking all the good advice posted above, and ill try to be a quiet reminder of the love that I hope she used to feel. If my " lack of empathy" means dw felt i didnt feel her pain (that's part of the dictionary definition anyway) well shes fixed that! I hope dd doesn't need to learn these harsh lessons until she's grown up.

Thanks again for all the good advice and insight you've all provided. I hope one day I'll have the opportunity to ask the mumsnet community about schools, boyfriends etc, something less harrowing.

Well you should go and see a solicitor as soon as you can and get some advice about what if regarding a divorce etc. and ensure you change the security of your accounts etc.

HAve a serious conversation and if again she says she is not in love with you and does not want to be with you then you ned to accept that and ask her to leave so that you have the space to get over your feelings and look to the future for you and your daughter.

Thanks for your update, Trying. I do feel sad for you - this sounds so bleak and lonely.

I agree it's a good idea to start preparing the practicalities of divorce. The old adage says "Expect the best; prepare for the worst." It can help you stay sane.

Living in limbo destroys a person slowly - please make sure you're not 'clinging on' for too long, and beware of coming to accept a half-life. Keep posting if it helps, and good luck. Take good care of yourself and your daughter.

I don't know if anyone's still out there reading, but here's an update in case. Relate sessions, agreed to by DW on the understanding that it was strictly to get me to accept our separation, did exactly that. She has not moved an inch, which now that I look back is typical. I guess she did make compromises, but never once it was explicit and might look like admitting she was wrong or giving in to my or anyone else's opinion. The separation terms are entirely hers, and I'm agreeing for the time being despite wanting more time with DD to avoid her threat of lawyers. But I think I will need to learn my legal position just in case. So long as I do exactly what she demands, we can be civil to each other. But for example away with dd and my family, and got a e- earful because I didn't manage to phone home before bedtime. To be honest there was so much life about that I forgot.

Apart from all the logistical hassle I'm now looking to the future. I feel I will have to take care not to move into a new relationship too fast, lest I end up in the same place. Does that mean she was right all along?

No, it just means you will have to take your time. Be happy with the new relationship, and make sure it's all going well. Don't be afraid to ask your new partner. Talking is always better than silence or sulking. Take it from me.

TryingToKeepitTogether - hi - i've only just spotted this thread. I'm glad that you've arrived at an acceptance of the situation, even though it wasn't what you wanted.

I'm on the brink of leaving dh - I've arranged a rental property and will move in a week or so. He'll remain in the family home, which will also be 'base' for our boys. I'm 51, he's 52 - been together 27 years with sons of 17 and 18. We can only afford to rent a 2 bed property so it wouldn't be reasonable to expect the boys to start sharing a room. I'll still see them nearly every day and hope that they'll stay with me a lot. Ds1 and I are members of the same sports club and train & compete together several times each week.

I would say that we should celebrate the happy, stable home life that we gave our sons, but accept that we have grown apart. He thinks I'm an utter shit and not giving thought to anyone else's feelings.