I just don't know what to think about my marriage anymore, I could do with some advice. Long, sorry.

[Dawnybabe]

Bit of background; my dh has a long history of porn. Have caught him looking at it on the computer so many times I've lost count. He knows I don't really like it, I feel compared and slighted and almost cheated on in a way, but he still continues to look at it. He has downloaded thousands of images of women, I know because I found them all at christmas and we had a bit of a row about it.

Since then I have found more stuff with this years date on. He obviously didn't take my complaints seriously and can't stop himself and is still doing it. I went to use the computer the other day and he was still logged in. I couldn't help myself and checked his browser history. As well as all the porn sites, there were live chat sites with webcams where you could watch. I assume he has been watching real women in real time getting undressed and doing all sorts.

What comes next? I asked him if he planned on anything else like having an affair and he was shocked and said of course not. I don't know if he'd go that far and I don't know when he'd find the time because if he's not working or fishing he's home with us. He's never been one for going out or socialising with anyone. I guess he likes to do it from the privacy of his own home.

I have told him several times that I don't like it and divorce would be on the cards if he didn't buck his ideas up. Whenever I try to discuss it with him he sort of clams up and can't see that there is a problem or goes monosyllabic on me. I feel as if I'm to blame in some way as since the dc's came along I have definitely got a bit chunkier and feel very self-conscious in bed, and of course my sex drive has hit an all time low, although imagining him imagining these other women doesn't help. He says he loves me and doesn't want anybody else but I just don't feel as though I trust him anymore.

I actually sat last night and worked out how I would cope financially without him. I realised that if we sold this house and paid off the mortgage, it would leave us with nearly £70,000 each. I could easily live on that for a few years if I rented somewhere until smallest dc is at school and then I could get a job. I told him this and he was a bit shocked, although we were in bed and I think he was half asleep so don't know if he took it in.

But then when he came home from work yesterday I had cooked dinner, made him his favourite cake and we all sat and had a nice dinner together. Why would I even think of spoiling that? We moved house when eldest dc was little and had nearly a year of regression to self-wetting. I can't put my lovely kids through all that just for my sake. I told him what a sap he had married and how he didn't deserve me being nice to him and he just laughed and gave me a hug.

Thank you if you've got this far. Writing this all out has been very cathartic.

I honestly can't see me ever leaving this marriage but I am very, very unhappy.

I should probably namechange for this because i am going to get blasted out of the water here but, fuck it. Im an honest person.

I am a woman (just to clarify!) and i look at porn sometimes (not as much as i did) but more to the point, i chat "in that way" with men online. I adore my DP, we have been together 20 years and our sex life is good. He is aware of the fact that i do this as i have never hidden it from him. It is no reflection on our relationship AT ALL. Im not justifying it, i dont actually consider it to be a good thing, it IS addictive and not always positive. I don't really know why i do it, but its pretty much FANTASY, where i can say things i wouldn't dream of saying in real life, even to my DP who as i say, we have a very good, non-vanilla sex life - so its not like i dont get my fantasies fullfilled in real life, i do.

I can't comment on the "comparison" thing as i think sex IS more visual for men than it is women, but for me it has no reflection on my attraction for my DP. I dont look at men in porn, im not a lesbian but its about those things happening to me, in my fantasy, It is all about me, MY self esteeem, my image of who i am an its a hard habit to break. Personally i think it is because im unfulfilled in other aspects of my life (My career is buggered and i miss working, cant get a job etc) so i look for ways to feel good about myself. Im not excusing it, its wrong, i know its wrong but thankfully my DP accepts it for what it is, but i know that he would rather i didnt do it.

It is a very selfish thing that i do and im not proud of it, but what im trying to say, and making a bit of a hash of it is, maybe yoru DHs habit doesn't have to be a deal breaker. As you say, its good between you, a porn habit is not great and neither are the conversations, but if you insist that your DH is open about everything then i should imagine the "thrill" will soon dissipate.

When i read threads like yours it makes me think very hard about the potential harm to my relationship, so thankyou for posting, i really hope that your DH gets over his addiction, but honestly and truthfully, i think if there is perspective it doens't need to put an end to what otherwise sounds like a strong marriage.

But boring, her dh was also contacting escorts, which implies that he wanted to act out these fantasies in real life.

Also, can I ask you that if your dp did have a problem with you looking at porn and if he saw your web sex as cheating (which many people do), would you make the efforts to stop? Because again, the OP says that she is very unhappy, that it is making her depressed and that she wants him to stop but not only does he not stop, he can't even be arsed hiding it from her.

I understand your post and I applaud your bravery, but I do think the situation here is a little different. The OP is not happy about it and there are very valid reasons why women are not happy with their men accessing porn. Also there are the escort girls to consider. The OPs marriage does not sound a happy one, whereas yours does. And I'm sure you would do everything to ensure that your kids didn't know about what you do, but her dh doesn't even log off at times and he doesn't see this as a problem at all. All of which sounds very selfish.

You have admitted that you are addicted. Her dh hasn't admitted any such thing. So I'm not sure the comparison in this instance is relevant. But it does provide a new perspective for the OP rather than me blathering on

Oh, i didnt see where she said about the escorts, i just read the OP and skimmed the rest.

You know Rhubarb, this all makes very difficult reading for me and i have been thinking for a while that i should stop, my DP would never have a problem with the porn, he looks at it too (once in a blue moon - pardon the pun), but i can't say he is 100% happy with the chats no. I am going to stop that, or at least try. Funnily enough, my DP proabably has more of a problem with my Mnetting than anything else, but ony because i get so drawn into things that i end up spending so much TIME on the computor that it impacts on my time with DP.

My marriage is good, its not perfect though and it has been rough (i used to be lucyellensmum i dont know if you remember me, im still her mum of course but i have namechanged several times - mostly because i think its taking too much of my time and deregister!). I am not however into the porn and chats because of any failings in my marraige (relationship).

But yes, i think if my DP gave me an ultimatum id stop, also if i sorted other aspects of my life out (the careeer) id stop, id have no NEED to validate myself in this way. If that makes sense.

You don't blather, you talk a lot of sense, but i was, whilst not defending porn use, trying to explain that it often doesn't mean people are not fulfilled in their own relationships. Strangely the guys who i have spoken to are often happily married and will talk about their wives with pride and love. That probably reflects my choice of chat partner more than anything though. Im not interested in having a sexual fantasy chat with someone because he isn't getting it at home.

Op, Im going to be really honest with you, it doesn't sound like this IS a deal breaker for you and your DH KNOWS this. That's why he doesn't bother to hide it, makes it seem like its your fault etc.

For me, it's like children behaving in a way you don't like, for example if you said to your dc over and over again- you are not allowed to hit other children. If you continue to do that I will take away your favorite toy. Now, we all know, and advise other parents that you have to follow through. If you don't, and instead take them out and buy them ice cream every time they do hit another child you are teaching them that the behaviour IS acceptable, they can keep on doing it and there are no consequences.

I'm really not trying to trivialize you problems or compare your DH to a child but I honestly think that by letting him know how unhappy this makes you, but not actually taking any actions, he knows he can do it again and again.
Yes there might be a bit of a row but a week later it will be back to normal.

He WILL do it again, he's pretty much told you that by saying that's what men do.

You just have to decide if it IS a deal breaker or if you are prepared to carry on accepting this.

boringnickname, yes I do remember you
I really can't say about women accessing porn. I know my feelings on porn are strong because I believe that most porn directed towards men is getting more and more extreme (rape porn is a very popular Google search term) because that is what men are now seeking. Women are seen just as sexual objects there to gratify men and a lot of porn shows women in degrading and humiliating poses whilst the man stands over them.

I don't know the psychology of porn. I know that some men can view their wives very differently from these women they wank over, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still participating in an industry that promotes the idea of women as inferior sexual toys. After all, many sexual predators, killers and so on have wives who never suspected a thing so them having good marriages in itself means nothing. It's like that thread in chat on men cheating, a woman can never say with 100% surety that her man will not cheat because that's exactly what the wives and partners of cheaters used to think before they caught their men at it.

It's interesting that you say you NEED the porn and chats. I wonder why that is? You say you are fulfilled in your marriage but what part of you is it that needs to be fulfilled in this way too? Is it wanting to be lusted over? Or taking control of a situation because you feel out of control in another?

I don't know. My dh doesn't look at porn. He has done in the past and his ex has made some hard corn porn films herself. In fact whilst searching for her one day he came across the videos she made and they put a nasty little virus on our pc that completely wrecked it. I've now told him that most porn sites contain harmful viruses and as this laptop is my business, I would kill him if it happened again. That did the trick . But seriously I would have an issue if he did look at porn (not once in a blue moon, but actually paid to access stuff or looked regularly) because to me that's like participating in human rights abuses. Ok, these women are paid to do what they do, but I do believe that as a consequence, life for the rest of us is much harder and that young men have a very warped view of women and relationships due to the prevalence of porn. I'm bringing my daughter up into that world and it scares the shit out of me.

Anyway, I'll shup up now so the OP can get some proper advice

Thing is Rhubarb, i agree with everthing you say, absolutey all of it and it IS very worrying what is out there. I think you are spot on thouh - it is taking control absolutely. But yes, this is not the place :)

If my DP was looking at porn = OK, chatting to women - NOT OK (double standards, but id go insane)

Shutting up too.

Good luck OP - maybe you should show your DP this thread, if he reads how this sort of stuff makes people feel he might change his viewpoint. This (and others) has given me food for thought.

Best of luck boringnickname, I'll be thinking of you now and you've been bloody honest and courageous!
Good luck too Dawnybabe, hope you come to a decision that will make YOU happy.

I am in a similar situation to you but years down the track with it. one thing I would say is that nothing will change and consider the way you will feel at 45 and 50 and would you wish you had taken action earlier (ie now) and saved yourself years of the same rubbish plus increased chance of meeting a man better suited etc
I do agree that if it's not a deal breaker for you then just ignore and feel happy - I thought i could turn the other cheek and endure a marriage of convenience for the sake of the children but really what is the point?

Hello all.

Boring (not at all I'm sure) and Rhubarb thank you for your continued interest in my boring little life. I'm still a bit undecided although I do have this rather disturbing little fantasy in my head of me living on my own in a pretty little house somewhere well away from him. Can't get my head around the thought of possibly not being with him ever again but there you go.

Just to point out, I never said he had been in contact with escorts. Well not to my knowledge anyway. That would mean actually physically interacting with another human being, and he can't cope with me so I doubt he would bother having to talk to someone else. As far as I can see it's all just voyeuristic stuff on the computer.

Am still in limbo, as I said. Hoping against hope that he thinks of me a bit and gives up on the online addiction, but am also hoping to win the lottery and that hasn't happened yet either.

Oh sorry Dawnybabe no you didn't. So where did I read about someone who had tried to email a private escort but hadn't actually done it? Gawd I thought it was yours, it must have been a different thread! That'll teach me to post whilst tired

Apologies again!

there was a thread very recently yes rhubarb, i think i know the one you mean.

Dawnybabe - heres a thing, you tell ME im not boring and then you go on to continue to describe your life as boring! tut! :) You aren't the one addicted to chat sites though, so im betting my life is more borin than yours :P

Seriously though, i think he is doing a rubbish thing, i just don't think it has such serious implications on your marriage. Having read a few threads now about partners using chat rooms etc it has made me seriously rethink my usage and the effect it is having on my relationship. I think if i am totally honest with you, and myself i would be niave if i said it isn't having a negative affect on us, it wont be a deal breaker but i think my relationship would be better without it. Interestingly after i posted here, one of my chat buddies did log on and i had a conversation with him about how i dont think it is a good thing to be doing this anymore. Now this guy isn't a sleeze (anymore than i am!), hes nice, hes quite good looking, intelligent, good job bla bla bla he really genuinely loves his wife and is always telling me how great she is. But he said something to me that really struck a chord - he has recently been out of the country, no web access, he said he felt so much better or it having not been logging on etc, and that is exactly how i feel, when i cant do it, i dont miss it, i feel better for not doing it, but when its there, its just so easy, passes the time, its an addiction and it is insidious.

Thankyou Dawny for not thinking badly of me (or at least not saying so!), you have every right to think im a bitch actually. I think you need to have a long conversation with your DH about this, its not good for you, or him and maybe find a way to reduce the amount of time he spends with it all, until he doesn't feel the need. Its his problem not yours, and has nothing to do with how your partner views you, i reallly want you to know that because in my extensive sordid experience with the whole thing, these guys love their wives and gfs and the whole porn chat is just an extension of wanking in the toilets over playboy.

Boring I don't think badly of you at all, you have admitted you have a problem with this and you have also admitted you don't always like it so I think you're quite brave! Your advice on how not to see it as a marriage breaker has been as eye opener and I'm trying to decide how to explain it to my dh in such a way.

I want him to see that he has been selfish and wrong but I don't really want to end my marriage over it! If I have to come to terms with some aspects of his behaviour that I'd raather not, in exchange for him being more open and honest about things, well perhaps that would be a start.

Sorry to all those, if anyone is still reading, that are currently in despair at this but I need to give this marriage a chance. As long as he does, obviously. If not, well we'll see.

I still think you need to show him this complete thread ,then see what he has to say for himself . I wish you a happy outcome.

I really hope it works out Dawny, hopefully he will realise how horrible this makes you feel and curtail his habit. I would be saying to him that whilst, at the moment, it is not a deal breaker for you, but if it were to continue it will erode your self esteem and sense of trust in him and then it may well be. Not as a threat, but because that is the truth of the matter. Im sure he absolutely doesn't want to lose you. I think he is trivialising it to you because that is how he justifies it to himself, lets face it no one wants to think of themselves as a sad old perve do they. If he thinks ah, but everyone does it, its more normal. The sad thing is, alot of people do do it, and porn is so much more normal these days, thats a whole other issue though. For me, id want the chats to stop, especially if they are with long term chat partners, the porn for me would be less of an issue, so long as it didn't become a substitute for a sex life.

Does he not know how it makes her feel though? Is that not what the rows are about? Her telling him how it makes her feel and him saying nothing?

I would class webcam sex as cheating. In my mind it would be no different if I caught my fella with another woman. The intent is there and it's them he is lusting after and sharing that side of himself with. Plus of course they themselves probably have partners of their own.

The only despair Dawny is the despair of seeing someone place someone else's needs way before their own, especially when your needs are so basic, the kind of needs that should come as standard in any relationship.

I hope you can work this out x

I have found this thread fascinating. My h internet sex chatted behind my back for 5 and a half years, which I discovered in November. It has been really traumatic.

He says is about power and control, not sex, and he says he rarely spoke to the same woman twice. It was through Yahoo pool, with women who had very suggestive screen names, so presumably they were up for it. Some were quite young though.

I couldnt understand why they would do it, and I didnt really believe his reasons, but from what Boring says it is true.

OP poor you though. I will leave if he does it again, for sure. It isnt like porn at all, regardless of what you think of porn, ime.

You have made it clear to your H that porn is NOT a dealbreaker for you - this is being backed up by your actions.

With internet porn sites and webcams, its not about looking at naked ladies - he is actually wanking to these images, interacting with these vulnerable women and making the very selfish choice of spending family money on this vile habit.

What if the kids caught him in action, cock in hand? What if the kids sees the porn? What kind of self image will his daughters have when they realise what their father is doing?

I would also suggest reading up on the realities of the porn industry.

Can I suggest you do something drastic and throw the router into the dustbin? You dont have to have internet access in your home and maybe you should insist that you get rid of it for at least a couple of months, so you can both focus on your relationship.

elastamum - thats a brilliant idea, sometimes i wish my DP would do just that

The problem is that he will still be able to access porn via his mobile and other means.

You can't stop him - he has to decide to stop using porn and this is why I think he needs to read about the politics and ethics re the porn industry. if he isn't bothered then you will need to decide if you are prepared to end the marriage.

What is to be said here, that hasn't been said already ? The man is pathetic. How can you respect him ?

I want him to see that he has been selfish and wrong but I don't really want to end my marriage over it!

What a perfect summing up of codependency.

Ironically, OP, it's only when you stop to give and give and negate yourself in so doing, when you stop trying to make him see what only he can choose to see, when you have truly had enough, and when you really up and leave, that your H might - just might - turn around and say "oh wait, I was selfish and wrong and I do care about my marriage."

He won't give it up, Dawny

He is happy to make you feel like shit, for what ? Empty thrills.

He won't accept he has been wrong, until he knows what it feels like to have consequences. At the moment, there are no conequences for him

So, carry on merry-go-round. Except, it's not very merry at all.

He won't ever change.

Even if you separated he would continue.

All you can do is decide if you want to live with a man like that or not.

I know what I would choose.

I agree with everything else Rhubarb has said, except this...

He can't talk about it - to me that says he has massive problems with intimacy as a direct result of a long term reliance on porn

My dh was never an emotional talker. We would talk about where we were eating at the weekend, which friend we were staying with, where we were going on holiday & when dc came along we would talk about them.

But matters of the heart/sexual stuff etc, just wasn't on the cards, because he found it awkward, I am not sure why, but it certainly WAS NOT due to a reliance on porn because he rarely (if ever) used it.

Now we can talk, I don't know what has changed, perhaps just that we have been through so much together, but I disagree that this dh we are discussing is so emotionally invested in porn that it prevents him talking about intimacy with his wife.