What can I do about my unhelpful husband?

[vcw]

I have two boys (6mths and 21mths)whom I look after full-time. I was happy to give up my career to bring them up. However, since becoming a housewife my husband has made no attempt to help with anything domestic (not that he did much before).

My husband leaves for work at 7.30am and if I am lucky he is back by 8pm, but two to three days per week he is out until the early hours marketing. He irons his own shirts and will look after the kids for 2-3hrs at the weekend. He won't get up in the night because he says he will be too tired for work the next day. I have tried to ask him to help more on several occasions and he says he will try harder. Nothing has happened.

He has complained that I don't respect him and that I don't appreciate how hard he has to work. He says that his job requires him to put in long hours. We can't afford much help and neither of our families are willing to assist regularly.

I did go back to work part-time when my eldest was 7mths but my husband considered that my choice and therefore my responsibility to sort out childcare and housework etc on top. He considers his career more important than mine because he earns more money.

As we have two boys I think it is particularly important for my husband to be actively involved in bringing them up. I do not think he is setting them a very good example. Often when he looks after them he just watches sport on TV and falls asleep on the sofa.

I am at the end of my tether and don't know what to do. My husband thinks that women want it all these days and that is not possible. Surely it is not too much to ask for a bit of support and have the ability to work part-time so that you can watch your kids grow up?

www, while i agree with much of what you say, what your post ignores is the simple fact that if you are not physically present at home for x hours per week you cannot do the ironing, washing, shopping etc in that time. to me it makes more sense to use linzoid's solution as articulated by droile, i.e. "You both work the same hours, then when he comes home, you share". what about if one partner has to go away for work? it makes sense for the other to do as much as they can in that time. and i'd also challenge the notion that motherhood is 24/7, well yes it is conceptually, but then so is fatherhood. if your child goes to bed at a sensible time and beyond the stage of waking up, well then your evenings are free, aren't they? this is a sensitive issue for me at the moment. i'm working very long hours at the moment and travelling a lot - consequently dh does more than i do at home - it's only common sense. as for whether a day at the office v. a day looking after kids at home is harder, imo, that's not a good comparison. what should be compared is a day at home looking after the kids and squeezing whatever chores are possible during the day v. going out to work, morning and evening childcare plus whatever chores have to be done. it is not one v. the other if you work you are combining the two.

and while i'm lining myself up for the brickbats, i also think that feeling taken for granted can cut both ways, i.e. the partner working hard outside the home can feel taken for granted and feel as though they are just there to supply the cash for everyone else to have a nice time.

vcw, this has strayed a bit from your original post. i do think your dh should be doing more when he is at home.

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bk, I don't think we disagree really. It's not that I think the SAHP shouldn't do anything domestically, not at all, just that somehow so many men seem to think they're doing the harder job (in going out to work) and expect to completely stop when they come in even if there's childcare or other work to be done. And then refuse to ever get up at night etc etc because their job is more important. Yes, your evenings are free if your children go to bed at a reasonable time so I take your point that it's not all or always 24/7. My 60 hour vs 168 hour comparison was a bit dodgy then I think being a SAHP and working outside the home can both be hard jobs in different ways and they can be differently hard at different times iyswim. I also, as you know, DO NOT think that being a SAHP is better or more imporant than being a work outside the home parent, which is why I don't participate in working mums vs SAHM debates - because I won't argue that one is more important or better than the other. But I do think that being a SAHP is often undervalued (and often by the other parent) and some people are more suited to one than the other. I do also think an awful lot of men are getting away with murder.
(ps sorry to hear you're having to work so hard atm).

Hoorah for www! Couldn't agree more. I work 4 days per week and have 3 at home (incl. weekends) and most Sundays I am LONGING to get back to work for a rest! I think the problem is that most fathers who work full time don't appreciate how hard it is because they've never done it. I thought it was a doddle looking after kids until I had one and did it.

I had a partner just like vcw's who contributed so little (apart from financially) that in the end I decided I could manage without him and left! This isn't the right solution for everyone and I'd be lying if I said I hadn't regretted it at times but I think on the whole both DS and I are better off without the constant resentment that I felt towards my former DP and the continual rows about it.

www, after a quick perusal of your post I think it's brilliant, one of the best of your many good ones on this site. A subject close to my heart too.
I'll be physically absent next week when I'm at the conference and DH will be doing the childcare. Just because I'm out of the picture, I don't suppose he'll be doing laundry or cooking ahead when I'm gone. I'll be fitting all that stuff in when I get back.

I don't find that my evenings are free. I find I'm still catching up with housework, ironing etc, because you can't leave the kids to their own devices and do that stuff all day long. You have to play with them and take them places. So I'm often still at it at 10pm (mumnet notwithstanding!) And my 4 yr old takes 20 goes to get him to stay in bed.

By the way www, just had a look at "Wifework" and am amazed - this is EXACTLY How I felt about my relationship. Interesting to see I am part of a trend! Intend to buy it (the book, that is).

sorry to hear about your former partner, sheila. Just goes to show how soul destroying it is,

Hi eveyone I though I'd join in this thread, ds no.2 is 11wks old and this is the 1st time i've had to read and answer on mumsnet.

My dh has been at home for 2yrs (I'm used to it now!!), but I do everything, housework, cooking, the kids, washing, ironing etc. He dose take over with the baby for winding or when I can't settle him which is brilliant and he ie excellent with ds1 (3 1/2yrs). But it's still down to me to get everything sorted.

I think working would be easier, by 10pm I'm knackered, having to deal with 2 screaming kids, feeling guilty cause I don't think I spend enough time with ds1, not being able to get the housework done every day, rushing round trying to fit it all in, to please every one and not having time for me.

Vcm I think your hubby does not realise how hard you work and you have the same long hours as he does and nights as well!! At least at work he can have lunch with no interuptions, no kids screaming , shouting, or moaning. He can finish a full cup of coffee! Oh and what a shame that he has to take clients down the pub!! (now can you take the kids to the pubs have a laugh with your mates, be able to finish a conversation and generally enjoy yourself??? I don't think so!)

I don't think you are being unreasonable at all, I think he should take the kids out to the park, or places like Yippee Yard (If you have one), he is loosing out on thier childhood and your going very grey with no brakes.

If you could afford to I would arrange a day a health farm with a friend (ask for the vouchers for a birthday or xmas) and then leave the kids with him for a full day listing what you do during the day and just see how much he does, I'll bet he will only just manage to dress the kids (not wash them) and feed them for the day and that will be it, but it will give him an insight to what you have to deal with for 1 day!

Keep your chin up, it is difficult and frustating , I know, but some how try to give yourself time for you. Once ds2 has had all his injections I will be able to put him into the creche at my local gym, so I'm just keeping sane and looking forward to the new year and my new lease of life 2-3 times a week and I will not feel guilty So try and think of things like this where you can leave the childrens just for an hr and that's not too expensive>

But isn't the point less that he doesn't 'help' but that vcw doesn't actually want to be a SAHM. She wants to work part time and share the chores. I find it utterly astonishing and repulsive that in the year 2003 a man can say that she is only 'allowed' to do this if she replaces herself with childcare and do all the housework. She's not bleedin' Cinderella, she's supposed to be this man's partner, not his employee/drudge. Children belong to both parents, hence if childcare is needed, then both parents must contribute equitably to its cost at the very least. We've had umpteen years of feminism, and men still carp that women 'want it all' because they want a slice (just a little slice) of the action.
I am also deeply sceptical that anyone 'needs' to have a piss up with his colleagues three times a week - and taking the weekends to go to parties seems to me to indicate a deep selfishness. My dh's work could include going to gigs three times a week, trips to New York and Philadelphia - all under the banner of work. But he doesn't go to 99% of them because he respects me and wants to be with me and his son and is careful that we do share the responsibilities that a family involves.
Why can't he take these 'clients' to lunch, or take them out once or twice a month. I think he's enjoying himself.

www, i don't think we disagree on the core issue, that women's work in the home is usually undervalued and taken for granted - and of course i agree that it is wrong that it is still in the main women's work. yet again, i'm reminded that few men measure up to dh.

i don't like the working v. sahm arguments much either. however, i would love to have even the option of staying at home and sometimes feel it is very much taken for granted that i will continue to be the household cash cow regardless of my feelings in the matter. i find myself increasingly wondering how many men feel resentful about similar assumptions.

must hasten to add here that i know dh feels taken for granted on occasion too - i think we're pretty good at discussing it and trying to address it when it gets to rowing over who is the most taken for granted!

droile, i'm so glad to read that things have taken a turn for the better with the chores situation in your house (if i have read it right). i didn't mean evenings were necessarily "free" in the sense of being able to put one's feet up - i just wanted to challenge the 24/7 thing. even childless people who work have to do chores in the evening sometimes as do working mothers invariably - there's zero chance of getting anything done during the day.

sorry vcw, back to your situation now! i agree with aloha's assessment of the situation. quite a lot of the "work" seems indistinguishable from fun to me!

I think my main reaction to this thread is that when children are very young it is not good for either parent to be out working the sort of hours vcw describes. It puts a lot of pressure on the relationship, and on the family. Children grow up so quickly, and the time when they 'need' you is gone. A family needs to spend time all together, regularly - not just continually take turns with the chores. It IS possible to make major lifestyle choices, if you can both agree that it is best in the long run.

i would be interested to hear examples of the major lifestyle choices you have made in order to achieve this ideal state, kmg1.

bk - feel I'm doomed whatever I say, but here goes anyway - all the usual suspects - for example neither of us have followed careers which would have demanded long hours, we don't spend a lot of money on anything - clothes, holidays, cars, etc., we haven't pursued jobs which would require high travelling times, we live in a deprived area in northern England, where all costs are low. We aim to spend as much time all together as we possibly can. To eat a meal all together twice a day practically every day.

I know we are very fortunate, and even for us things are much easier now the boys are older, but there are always choices to be made.

I think that's brilliant kmg1. As you said, they are only little for such a short time. I've been very lucky with my p/t job, but I could have got much further if I'd sacrificed my family time.

VCW: the more you tell us, the more complex it gets...and the simpler it gets. Complex because this is way beyond work in or out of the home, simple because he is a male chauvanist throwback, more old-fashioned than the phrase male chauvanist itself. It was the vacuum cleaner thing that did it for me. You must feel as if you live in a testosterone den! Running yourself ragged after 2 little boys, under the thumb of a big one.

Was it becoming a father that made him come over all patriarchal?

In what ways does he show any love or consideration for you? If he loves you does he have any empathy for the physical difficulties you encounter with the stairs etc? And doesn't he care for the independent spirited woman he fell in love with?

If you want to get a job outside the home, you need to come up with an action plan. It will require some very tough negotiation with him, and because these problems go deep, possibly relationship counselling. Has he always spent so much time away from home, out etc? Is he terrified of the responsibility he has landed himself with (the bad-with-money thing made me wonder)and deals with it by pretending it isn't there in his field of vision? Has he retreated to this neanderthal picture of the world as some kind of security ('it's what my dad did...' because he can't see an alternative which he feels he can live up to?

Some winking stalker crept into my post by accident!

What a great post, Blu. It's making me come over all femininst (& realise that dp is actually pretty good about sharing domestic responsibility & I should try to remember that when I'm feeling hard done by)

I reckon you need to get him into something manly, like extreme ironing!

Sorry Tom, I realise you meant that as a joke but I'm having a bit of a sense of humour about it; given that Fathers Direct is always saying (a) that fathers do a lot more childcare than is generally perceived (b) that 'lack of parenting skills and/or feeling confident about caring for their children' is one major reason dads lose contact with their children after separation (and yes I realise these two things are a bit contradictory), I think possibly you could make a few more suggestions for how this particular father could change his behaviour?

That should be sense of humour FAILURE of course.

I think Tom's post was very funny, and I finally understand what DH meant, when he long ago told me he didn't have the balance for ironing !!!!