What do you do when you keep having the same argument?

[shouldIbecrossaboutthis]

My partner and I are brilliant together and very rarely row/biker, when we do it's always about the same 2 things, which drives me mad!

The first one is that during a conversation, which turns into a squabble, he changes his story / lies to suit his argument. Often saying he didn't say or do something which he bloody well did. Like he realises he did something wrong, and instead of saying, "oh sorry" he has to make these convoluted stories, changing the facts along the way so that the end result is that he is not to "blame".

The other thing he does is never say sorry. I don't necessarily mean a heartfelt 'big song a dance sorry', but just a 'small whoopsie kind of sorry'. Like for eg, we were having breakfast, a friend was cooking the meat and DP was doing the toast. He only made toast for himself. When the friend cooking the meat served up and sat down he said "dp is there any toast for me?" and instead of saying "oh no sorry, did you want some?" like I would he said, "no, you didn't ask for any". I find it odd?

These rows are normally over tiny things, but I'm not very good at letting things go especially on these points as I would like him to acknowledge the way he is behaving is upsetting; so that he ultimately stops doing it. But it doesn't seem to be working!

Should I just ignore this or is there a way to resolve it? Thanks for any advice and sorry so long, wanted to avoid a drip feed!

I couldn't stand either of those problems.

He's not admitting to ever doing something wrong, is he? He changes his story or blames the other person so that he is always in the right.

These are not small issues.

phew glad it's not me! How do I get him to see what he is doing? I have considered a dicta-phone in desperate times!

My ex used to say that I never said sorry. Looking back now I realise it was him gaslighting me, and he was the one who could never apologise for anything. I actually have no problem with admitting I'm wrong and saying sorry!

The first thing is gaslghting - changing history and twisting the truth to suit his own needs and make you look.feel wrong/bad/stupid.

He sounds quite controlling. I couldnt stand living with a liar, tbh, or someone that could never admit they were wrong.

What are the good things about the relationship that keep you in it?

Is he aware that he does this or is he in denial? It's quite a childish thing to do to never admit being wrong. Have you tried a calm sit down and chat about it?

He sounds like he doesn't have basic manners. He's got a problem saying sorry and won't own up to a mistake which is a pretty poor character trait. Would he say 'thank you' if you did something nice for him? Does he offer you compliments without being asked? Can you agree on things together or does he generally get his own way? If any of these other things are also a 'no' then that would be bother me a lot.

I also think these are symptoms of an underlying attitude "thing" or problem.

He's refusing to say sorry, because he doesn't feel sorry, ie, he doesn't think he's in the wrong (fair enough, if it was a genuine misunderstanding) or feel bad (slightly more of a red flag here) OR he is on the defensive, has the belief that "sorry" is admitting defeat/wrongness and he will never do that.

Which also ties into the other trait, twisting what has happened so that he doesn't have to take responsibility for his own actions. Everything is always someone else's fault.

These might seem like small things but actually they are the kind of things which niggle away at you constantly because they are so small and everyday. Thing is if he's not willing to take responsibility for anything, I doubt he's massively willing to listen and take your comments/suggestions on board, because he'll see it as criticism. And you can't criticise him, because nothing is ever his fault, so in his eyes you're criticising something he can't help.

It's an insecurity thing but way beyond what you can solve within a relationship situation, unfortunately.

Ex used to do both.

I'd say something like "you're driving too close to the car in front" (he often tailgated), then he would pull back and say "no, I'm not". Grrr.

And whenever he finally apologised, I was so upset by then that I often refused to accept it.

It may start with small things, but you will probably find out that it will be the same with important issues. And it does become a big issue when it's constant.

You may be better off moving on if he doesn't change at all, TBH.

MagsAloof I'm not sure he is controlling, to be honest I'm not the type of women that would allow anyone to control me! But he does 'fib' when necessary during spats. AFAIK he doesn't lie about major stuff, just teeny stuff that then becomes a big deal because a lie is a lie, isn't it.

Other good stuff is that he is kind, he will do anything for me, I love his compay, he makes me laugh, we have a brilliant physical relationship etc.. we really do love each other.

I would say these two instances of his behaviour crop up once or twice a month. If it's something very trivial I just tell him to stop doing that thing where he makes shit up to suit his agenda which curbs a bigger row but every 2 months or so I just get so frustrated with it.

doinmummy I'm not sure he is aware he is doing it. He often says, "I know you're upset because I did X but I did it because of Y, & Z". Like there is always a reason that makes it not attributable to him personally. It's quite hard to explain really.

CogitoErgoSometimes His manners are a bit rubbish. He rarely says please/thanks. I do promot him though now and again when I feel it matters. He does offer compliments alot though. He does not get his own way, I am quite a strong woman so fight my corner well; I would say I marginally get mt own way more than him TBH.

BertieBotts I feel he is defensive. When we have tried to talk about it in the past he says I attack him, so he gets defensive.

I have tried to pinpoint how I attack him and how I can stop it and it seems to be about my tone of voice and words I use.

He would rather it that I beat about the bush kind of thing, to say things nicely. But if something is upsetting me, then I want him to know (so he can stop), and sometimes there isn't a nice way to say something bad. I don't shout or swear. I might say something like "you're lying" when he would rather I said "I think you're incorrectly remembering things".

I wonder what he feels insecure about, if it is that?

I think he feels insecure about being wrong and he'll go to great lengths to avoid admitting it. ExP is like that. He' 'had no idea' it was mothers day for example. I'm sorry, but round our way, it's impossible not to know. The fact is, he had no money (well, none that wasn't earmarked for booze and fags...)

Watch the whole 'tone of voice and words you use' malarkey. Sounds suspiciously like getting you to walk on eggshells if you ask me...

Mine was like that. The decree absolute was in Feb.

tallwivglasses I already told him it's how I talk and I don't have time to pussyfoot around, I'm not rude so there is no reason he should feel 'attacked'. I told him I would preface attacks with "i am now attacking you..." but at all other time should just assume I am talking

Bit sad noone has managed to stop this though. We just had a long talk about it, so now he is on his best behaviour for 5 mins

I used to do the first thing. Stopping it took quite a while - for about a year, I had to pull myself up short and even sometimes say "No, I was lying when I said that."

It comes from fear of being shown to be wrong. My dysfunctional family of origin is big on debate - a good thing in many ways, but there was great shame attached to losing. If you made statements without being able to back them up, you were shamed. My father used to lie rampantly to make a point or make an impression, or just to make something sound interesting, and I've noticed my brothers do this now.

If your H's lying / story changing / backtracking is part of an overall pattern to put you off balance, or if it has adverse consequences like not being able to pay a bill or missing an event, then I will join in the red-flag waving. But if it truly is isolated to particular set of circumstances, and especially if it can be traced back to an overbearing adult in his childhood, I think you should consider this.

Your toast story sounds quite similar to the above, I think. "You didn't make toast" is a criticism and there may be shame attached. Sorry is an admission of guilt. Safest to put the blame on the (by now imaginary) authority figure by saying they didn't INSTRUCT him to make toast.

That bit didn't happen in my family - I'm still learning not to apologise all the time - but I can certainly see how the shame/avoidance pattern could lead to it.

Brilliant post Garlic, thanks.

This is a big problem sorry to say. I have been utterly defeated by it so don't have any advice.

Just be aware that this is narcissistic behaviour. Not owning stuff, twisting it round onto you...

is destructive, crazy making and not a small thing at all.

Sorry, the only thing I can say is be aware of it, consciously note when he does it, and DON'T BE DRAWN into a row. So, actually, aware silence and leaving the room is better than responding. You have to keep hold of your sense of self.

The thing is, I thought that if I 'explained' it better or analysed it to him or screamed louder or got more aggressive (note the escalation, and the frustration of not getting through - I was a nice person once), THIS time he would get it/hear me.

Not once. Not in 20 years.

It IS a red flag for controlling/emotionally abusive behaviours. I know that will sound absolutely ridiculous right now, but it is. Note "red flag" does not mean "absolutely and definitely will turn out to be this kind of guy" but do watch yourself and keep check of your own reactions - I like your response to him that you don't have time to pussyfoot around, and I think you should stick to that one. He's an adult, not a delicate flower, and you shouldn't have to temper your words in case he "feels" criticised by the way you speak to him, especially if (as it sounds) you are not being overly critical. He should be able to admit he is wrong sometimes. Well, every time he is wrong, to be frank.

I don't know what causes insecurity like this but as wobbly says, it does smack of narcissism - a fear of everyone finding out what you are "really" like underneath this brave, confident exterior.

If you ever find yourself tempering the way you speak to him in case you upset him or hit his insecurities, especially if you previously thought the way you spoke to him was fine and perfectly polite, please, remember this thread. And think extremely carefully about what you're doing to your own sense of self when you're changing who you are for someone else.

:( Abit, and thanks for your comment. You're right, of course, about the narcissism - it's about trying to avoid shame, underneath it all, isn't it?

I guess it mostly comes down to whether your H is going to find enough self-awareness (and self-respect) to knock it off, OP.

garlicnutter yay you have given me hope. I realise that no-one likes to be wrong, but I can certainly admit when I have made a mistake. He is very good at bill paying and very generous with money in general, so I don't think it's a bigger picture issue. It does only happen over trivial things. He often tells fibs to make stories more exciting, or just completely makes things up (IMO) to sound more interesting.

Abitwobblynow I like the idea of aware silence, I must just start saying "you're lying again" and leave it at that. I do sometimes say, 'I'm not continuing this line of conversation if you're going to lie, I know what happened'. But I then sometimes feel like I'm letting him get away with it IYSWIM, really I want him to stop doing it, or do it less, or just do 1 of the 2!

BertieBotts It's funny you said about insecurity; I've never considered him to be insecure. But the other night he did say that he worries I am out of his league, we had been watching a silly film about leagues of attractiveness. Maybe he is worried I might dump him and so is keeping things "sparky" by being a twunt? Or is worried about giving me all the "power"? Like being the most attractive, being the most 'right'? I asked him about it this afternoon but he didn't say it was true. Hopefully I have given him something to consider.

I certainly wont be changing my line of thought or speech though, but will bear it in mind.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bertie and others! Don't change the way you approach things or the way you speak (assuming you're perfectly reasonable when you do, of course)! Also, don't escalate the issue as painfully described by Abitwobbly.

"Stop lying" is really more indulgence than he's entitled to, as is "An apology would be in order." He's a grown-up.

"I'm not sure he is controlling, to be honest I'm not the type of women that would allow anyone to control me!"

I've never been in an abusive relationship so no particular reason to take umbrage at this(!), but this is a misguided thing to say, to say the least...

There isn't a particular 'type' of women that allows themselves to be controlled and by dint of that, gets embroiled in abusive relationships. It can happen to anyone. The whole point is that things start out fine and dandy and slowly and insidiously get worse. You don't even realise what's happened right in front of your very eyes until you're months or even years into it. That's the whole point...! Abusive men - well, people - are even nice most of the time. How would they keep the other person in the relationship, otherwise? If they were awful most of the time, it'd be easier to a). identify the behaviour and b). be minded to leave them.

Wouldn't everyone walk away and leave easily at the very first sign if it was that identifiable?

I mean, it's red flags exactly like the sort your DP is showing which is how it can start. As Bertie says, 'red flag' doesn't mean anything is a foregone conclusion, but can be an indicator or the start of something.

Not sure what to suggest beyond what anyone else has said, other than to continue to try to get through to him as to how frustrating, annoying, etc, etc, his behaviour is, and I dunno, I guess just be aware of other red flag type behaviour. Likely there won't be any, and hopefully he'll recognise his behaviour and change and all will be fine.

shouldIbe, I guess it might be helpful for your H to practise simple statements like 'I was wrong', 'I was mistaken', 'Sorry', 'I forgot', 'You've got a point' so he can see the world doesn't fall in. Very important not to follow up with "but"!! The aim is to grasp that it's all right to be wrong sometimes.

Also, that your stories don't have to be the greatest tales ever told - as a story-teller, he's probably good at making things interesting anyway, without false embellishment :)

It's painful to be always trying to head off destruction - and painful to admit it, ime. Once you realise that healthy, balanced people respect you more for a bit of honest humility, it's very liberating.
My new mantra: Good enough is fine!

If, however, he were to refuse to see what's wrong, to put in the effort to fix it or to insist on your 'fixing' it --> see my red flag?!

I'm not sure he is controlling, to be honest I'm not the type of women that would allow anyone to control me!

You just have more fights or escalate more quickly.
It doesn't stop them trying. :(

You may not be controlable, but he may still be controlling.

I'm not the controlable type either, but at some point, being tired of stupid fights, I just gave up challenging him openly most of the time. It still destroyed my love for him, as well as my trust, and ultimately the marriage because he sensed I was quickly drifting away from him and he went the wrong way to "control" me and get us back together. It spectacularly backfired on him.

Being strong, it can be even more dangerous, because you think you can do something about it and change the way he is, rather than just give up and leave.
Many women in abusive relationships relate how they became a shadow of their former assertive confident self.

Bertie's posts above are very wise. I highly recommend you drink them in, OP.

I certainly wont be changing my line of thought or speech though

Most definitely do that, yes. Always remain aware that you have the right to your own opinions, the right to voice them, and especially that you are not responsible for managing his issues.

I see red flags not only in everything you describe about his words and behaviour, but also in how you are questioning yourself and your actions, and how you are focusing on what may be wrong with him (one micro-step away from trying to "fix" him). Remember that his actions and his words are his own responsibility. You can't make him secure, any more than you are the one who makes him lie to you. Those are his issues to sort out, if he wants to. All you can do is keep stating what you will and will not accept, and backing that up.

I have the exact same problems do annoying isn't it?

I had the same problems too with my ex. One of the reasons he's my ex!