Trying to make sense of EA

[WhippingGirl]

If you have moved on from an EA relationship how did you separate what was EA stuff and what was simply not getting on?

I have been looking at this whole subject

After a lot of research and souls earching I have admitted to myself that xh is a Narcissist and I suffered EA/Verbal Abuse in the last 10 years of our marriage. We split Christmas 2009 and I have literllay just closed the last book I have been reading on this so this whole subject is uppermost in my mind.

You are spot on with the dilemma of the shame of how you allowed yourself to be treated in various ways and in my case that in spite of that he left me. I worked out fast that our split although heartbreaking for me was for the best and that our marriage was awful. However at times you still have that nagging doubt that you were too awful to live with, that if you had been different so would he and happiness would have reigned.

So I went onto the EA thread on here and read all the links and bought 3 books, after sifting through many reviews which can be enlightening in themselves, and now can say without doubt what was going on in my marriage.

I have doggedly stuck to presenting a positive picture of xh to our DC (even though him going off with an OW made it all much more painful) and feeling deteremined not to regret the 17 years we were together. I have thought that in many ways our not getting on was a conflict of values etc . I have thought that some of my behaviour left a lot to be desired. However today I can now see that those things still hold true BUT far more relevant was his behaviour as someone with NPD and that I did undergo a huge amout of EA and verbal abuse.

The relief that I feel is enormous, the biggest message in my brain atm is that I couldnt have done anything to be his perfect wife (spent long enough trying) and he wont ever change. What has surprised me is that I feel sad to think that that man that I thought of as little short of a god for so long actually is a very damaged and in the few dealings we have now I see that clearly.

I would recommend the EA thread on here as a starting point and be prepared to face some hard truths to answer your question about how much was EA and how much was incompatibility

To end off I am now happier than in a long long time

WG: Have you read Lundy Bancroft's boolk WHY DOES HE DO THAT yet?

If not, get on with it!

You need to understand the dynamics of the relationship, of the abuse. this book with show you that the abuse had literally NOTHING to do with you at all. It's his choice.

Also you need to contact Woman's Aid and get yourself onto the Freedom Programme. Even though I got on my course a while after X left and had done a LOT of thinking about the shit he'd pulled on me, I was aghast at the revelations I had when on the FP.

It's AWESOME, it will REALLY help.

Oh and if your counsellor is 'having a go at you' she is not right for you. You have no space in your life for aggression. Tell her to recommend someone highly trained and experienced in DV, as I wonder if she has much experience if she is even telling you off tbh.

Come and post on the EA support thread... I think we are up to 8 now... so the more the merrier. Welcome back to real life, to freedom.

Well done for getting out. it took a lot of courage for you to do that, but you did it!

Tobeheard, that reads like emotional abuse to me, yes.

HIS

Niffler- all the time! I wax always astonished hearing other women telling off their husbands or complaining it whatever and getting away with it. Though I realise that's just normal and that if you live someone enough to be married then its supposed to mean you treat them like you like them :-(

I was surprised to her other people's DHs and DPs not getting angry at them for being late home...but rather expressing sympathy at them being stuck at work etc. After a decade (and I'm only mid 20s) it's going to take some time to reprogramme and get some normal expectations.

It's good that you're having counselling :) Is your counsellor trained/experienced in abuse recovery? She should be happy to go through individual events with you, if you want to do that - counselling sessions are yours to use as you want to. I expect going over the emergency plan thing is a just-in-case thing. I would try taking a list of things you're unsure about to the next meeting and asking straight out "Was this abusive, and why?" - you could also or or otherwise do it on MN, if you wanted to. Of course different posters will have differing opinions, but it might help to gain an outside perspective.

Another thing to look at, perhaps, would be the Freedom Programme, if there is one near you? That specifically looks at behaviours and interactions within relationships and divides them into "healthy" and "unhealthy" (abusive) behaviours. They will also help you reprogramme your own thoughts to help you expect better treatment.

This is one of the resources used on the course - of course no single man will do all of the things on the red list, generally just a few, but ALL of the red behaviours are emotional abuse, whereas ALL of the green behaviours are what you can expect from a healthy relationship.

tobeheard In a healthy relationship, that situation would probably have gone like this:

Background - EITHER both of you have been up/taking turns with sick 17mo all night, so you'd wake up when she stirs and be prodding each other, saying "You get up" "No, you get up" - both of you would know this was lighthearted and that both of you would have to get up anyway. You wouldn't be quite so tired and stressed, because the load had been shared.

OR you had decided between you that since he had to get up for work, you'd deal with the sick toddler, but he'd get up a little bit earlier to help out in the morning. He'd get up, stick the vomity sheets and PJs in the washing machine because they are making the kitchen smell, and make you a cup of tea, if he had time. He goes off to work.

Still, you're not having a great morning. You've been up in the night dealing with vomit, and you haven't had chance to drink your tea (which is now cold) because the sick toddler has been screaming for you and generally clingy. He's just about to leave and you notice he's left the lunch things on the side AGAIN. You've been meaning to mention this for a while but kept forgetting, and you're feeling pretty stressed with a clingy, whiny toddler and mess to deal with, so you snap at him: "Look, can you just help me out please and not leave your washing up, as it just gives me more to do"

He would take the whole picture in, and probably say something along the lines of "Sorry, love. I'll do it later, I really have to get back to work now though." You'd probably feel a bit deflated that the dishes were still on the side, but be less annoyed, and you'd talk about it later when he got home and try to work out a solution that worked for all of you. He wouldn't dream of swearing at you, and if he was annoyed at the snapping, would probably take it into context. You'd feel bad about snapping later and would apologise and he'd tell you to forget it, it had been a hard morning and was totally understandable.

So the EA behaviours in this example are:

• Expecting the childcare to be your responsibility, even in this extreme situation which usually requires extra help and support - not sharing/helping out, putting his own priority for sleep above all else (and not as a shared, measured decision)
• Continuing this expectation/selfishness over into the morning, not offering to help out with any of the clean-up, basically caring for himself and ignoring yours & DD's needs
• Not respecting the fact you've just cleaned up, and expecting his own mess to just be dealt with, when he came home for lunch.
• Being dismissive when you raised a concern with him, even if you did so in a "snappy" way (under context, tiredness & stress.)
• Swearing at you, for ANY reason.
• Repeatedly.
• Making you feel, when he stormed out (and during the conversation later) that you'd been unreasonable, when actually you were just stressed and making a perfectly reasonable request. (Manipulating your feelings, making you out to be the bad guy in order to shift blame for his own shitty behaviour)

Sorry for the essay Hope it helps a little.

bertiebots - Thanks so much for your analysis of a normal response to what happened !
To be fair to DP, he did help out the night before when she was being sick and he did offer to help in the night but I said it was better for him to sleep.
BUT - the rest of what you said, I totally agree with.

I think like the OP said, my DP always makes out that I am the unreasonable one, makes me the bad guy, never ever apologies EVER. That is the thing that makes me feel like something isn't right.

Today, he wasn't feeling too well, I made offered to make him a drink, got him water and paracetemol (all whilst trying to feed the baby - why he couldn't have got out of bed himself I don't know but I did offer)....I closed the bedroom door, when back to feed the DD in her highchair, then he shouted out for me to let the cat out of room he was in. I went in and said a bit snappily "can't you get out of bed and do it, I am trying to feed dd, I've been very sick myself all week, then dd has been sick and I'm doing everything". His response was "piss off". I then replied "Do not speak to me like that, I am not your slave".

He has not apologised since, he went out came back home, didn't even say hello and is sitting watching tv in the spare room in bed.

Not normal or healthy is it.

Another thing to consider, then - did you tell him it was better for him to sleep because you genuinely thought that, or because you knew he would kick off/be really grumpy/really milk the lack of sleep, and it wouldn't be worth your while?

Apologies if not - but worth looking at :)

It is definitely not normal or healthy for him to speak to you like that, or for him to turn everything round to you. Adults should be able to admit when they are wrong.

hi all, had a bit of a day yesterday over something so innocuous. my dm took me to choose curtain fabric. ended up in tears in the shop because choosing for myself was so stressful. i would usually default to exp because the stress of him rejecting it (anything that was my choice) was too much. i looked at lots of nice things and felt like there was no point because i wasnt entitled to like things like that. it was v confusing and emotional over just bloody curtains!

Dear WP, please come over to the EA thread ... in the aftermath of an abusive relationship a simple thing such as choosing what time to get up or go to bed, what to eat, even how to the washing up let alone buying curtains can reduce you to tears. It's normal for this abnormal world. And reading others going through the same thing helps. Those lucky enough to have never experienced an abusive relationship will find this hard to understand.
Fwiw, my ex went absolutely ballistic over some curtains. Threw things, destroyed things, threatened suicide - the works. The curtains were just a catalyst for a tirade of abuse .
Good thing is that I sit in my bedroom looking at my beautiful curtains and am happy .

I can totally relate to your reaction WhippingGirl. It's taken me over two years to be able to flick the heating on because I'm cold. He would never allow us to have the heating on and if he did it was his decision only. The first time I went to the supermarket to shop for me and DD I didn't have clue what to buy as our shopping had been dominated by his preferences and likes. I was washing up this morning and saw the Lenor fabric conditioner next to Fairy washing up liquid and it made me smile. Sounds mad I know but those 2 items are just two of the many things I wasn't 'allowed' to buy and for a long time after leaving, I didn't feel entitled to buy, now I have them in my cupboards! .

For a long time I haven't felt deserving of or entitled to nice things but I have just reached the stage where I feel I bloody well am, and I'm going to have them too!

In the end I bought a fluffy bath mar because I wasn't allowed them. That's some progress I guess :-)

I'm half way through reading but just had to post. I nearly went crazy trying to do the right thing, wondering what I was doing wrong, analysing every little thing. It was hell, but interspersed of course with those magic bits that make you stay.

But oh wow...you will not believe the feeling when you finally break free mentally. I look back with shame too. Shame that I allowed myself to be treated like shit. I was so angry all the time until I realised I could be a victim and burning up with anger. Or I could stop being angry. It was as simple as that. And I forgave myself because EA guys are total head fucks and the strongest woman can lose the plot with them.

I never thought I could get here. I am not seeing anyone but I know I will never stand for that crap again. the baggage reclaim website helped enormously...every single article resonated and made me feel better about myself. Now most of them are not about me anymore.

I initially felt sad as I missed the buzz from the highs, but now I actually get a buzz from being in control of my life again. Read and read this site and BR when you feel crap...it's like free therapy!

Tobeheard....there is never any occasion when someone should speak to another in that way. I would be running as fast as I could. Well now I would...I was so messed up before.

I would say the main difference between EA and bickering is that EA men are hot and cold so you never know where you stand. And if you feel like you're treading on eggshells because you don't know how he will react....that is 100% EA.

WhippingGirl, strewel's right, the silliest things are what set them off. I remember X kicking off cos the Orange Juice carton and the milk carton (always kept next to one another in the fridge door) had been swapped over in their places. and he'd put orange juice in his coffee and had to waste his cup and make another one

One carton is Orange, with pictures of oranges on it. The other was Red with a cow on the front... I actually laughed and said, couldn't you tell the difference? didn't you pay any attention to what you were doing?

FWIW, i don't even think he DID mix them up, I never saw him do it... entirely possible he was just kicking off because they were not in the places they normally occupied. No Coffee was harmed in the manufacture of his tantrum.

One step at a time love, things DO get easier. Day by day. don't take on too much at once, just do what you can do, that is good enough for anyone. ((hug))

Tobeheard - no that's not right at all. My Ex made me walk back into the kitchen he was sat in, PAST him to go and close the door behind him. I did it, more out of shock, but I did comment that it was easier for him to have done. I didn't do it again. I went selectively deaf....

fizz BaggageReclaim is AWESOME! I love her work! she really resonates with me too.

Manufactured tantrum is such an accurate description of exp! I refuse to believe he was actually annoyed about half the things I got betrayed for. It was just a means of being controlling and keeping me down.

WhippingGirl, I'm 43, was in a 10 year abusive relationship and am about a year ahead of you in recovery terms, as Ex left in Feb last year.

Since then I posted loads on MN, on the NARC thread that preceeded this EA support thread (1), I have done the Freedom programme, I've called WA when I needed RL support. I attend a weekly DV support group and I have a therapist since November. There is also a small spin-off FB group that is just awesome.

Trust me, our abusers are ALL the same. When you start attending group sessions/FP or just relax here and read the threads you will see this!

ALL the anger is manufactured, none of it is real. The aggression is, the hatred, and you are right, it's just to keep you confused, and on your toes so that he has the upper hand all the time.

You have a journey to make, back to yourself, but you are well on the way already. Well done again, in case I didn't tell you enough already!

yrh i kind of get the journey back to me thing. i know i never really accepted the ea. i knew it was all bs but i just hung in there i suppose. in the last couple f years i convinced myself it was better for the dc but for a few reasons, over the last year i toughened up a bit and started to feel a u turn. now i am rightly convinced that although 2 parents are imortant, that is not mor important than thr basic welfare of one of them. my mum walked away from more extreme dv/ea and i have never resented her for it - i admire her stength and resilience.

thanks hsppyhissy xx

Oh god yes, a child in the midst of this mindfuckery is only going to end up damaged. 2 parents are only as good as each individual parent is.

An abuser will go on to control the child or the child will grow up thinking this is normal, when it is anything but normal.

Look at yourself through your child's eyes, be honest with your DC, don't lie to make the abuser look bad, explain in truth, age appropriate of course, but make it clear that you had to it, as it was not normal, not right and bad for everyone involved. Your child will grow to admire you as you do your mum.

My X used to call me every name under the sun if he had been drinking and say things like 'you made me marry you, i didn't choose you' He left before christmas after 27yrs . Told everyone i was a 'nutter' because i thought he was having an affair. He was!!!.Really sad though my lovely son said please don't take him back he's always shouted at you and called you names. Awful that they are his memories :(

I read The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia someone. It changed my whole persepctive on my "relationship". I now know it was not a proper relationship based on love and trust but a power struggle over control. My ex tried to destroy my confidence, it took me a year on my own to sort my head out. Now I can separate his issues and the real me not the one he projected onto me.

My EA relationship was thankfully short compared to some of yours (2 years) and I remembered being so relieved when he finally broke it off and left. He had a thing about handbags (total freak) and I was only allowed to carry handbags that he approved of or had bought me. About 2 weeks later I went to pick up the approved bag (I hated it) and realized I could use anything I wanted! I threw out everything he'd bought me and it was so liberating.

Blimey, my relationship issues pail into insignificance compared to some of the stories on here. I hope all you ladies are much happier now you are out of those horrible, weird relationships.

BUT......again, I am wondering where the line is between EA and a relationship in trouble. For example, houndinhissy your story about your ex getting pissed off about the milk and orange cartons. Now, from an outsider, perhaps he was having a crap day? Perhaps he was resentful about something and taking it out on you in that way? Of course, I am not suggesting that is how it was....but do you see what I mean, how can you tell if it's someone being really grumpy and getting angry about something minor (but actually it's not the minor thing that has set them off, it's an underlying issue within the relationship that isn't being addressed properly), or that actually that person is just being controlling?

I've just realised something, actually, about bickering VS EA.

It was during one of the first arguments me and DP (not EA!) ever had. It was about eggs, or butter or something else really trivial, I can't remember now, and I was getting SO frustrated, I stomped upstairs at one point, and then I grinned and had this sudden realisation and couldn't stop smiling. It was exactly like arguing with my sister. We were both just being stubborn, nobody was using underhand tactics to win, I knew instinctively that whatever was decided, we'd be absolutely fine and it wouldn't change our relationship afterwards, it just felt safe. He was infuriating, but he wasn't belittling.

By contrast, trying to argue with an EA person is like... like attempting to argue with a really mean teacher at school, who you know has it in for you.

The difference is that in a non-EA argument, the other person is listening, even if they don't agree. You both feel on the same level.

I went out and bought wellies with jellybeans on them the first weekend after :) I still struggled with loads of things, though. It took me six months to realise I had "permission" to take up smoking again, and over a year to realise I could make trips, with DS, on the train on my own and go and visit people if I wanted to! That was exciting.